A few months ago I bought the redding bushing neck set and along with it came a body die. Is it for fl resizing the case?
I also read where some say to fl re size every 4-5 reloads. Is this necessary if there is very little to no effort chambering or ejecting a round?

Yes, the Body Die is intended to size the remainder (shoulder, body) of the case. It must be used together with a neck sizer.

No, unless you actually experience problems chambering your rounds when only neck sizing, you can continue to only neck size. It will depend on the pressure and brass you use whether or if you need to FL size. Personally, I find it worthwhile to FL (body) size from time to time. It just makes chambering cases quite a bit easier. On top of that, hard chambering cases will increase the chance of your bolt lugs galling, and you might experience accuracy problems with cases jammed into the chamber - I do, at least.

- mike

I WILL NOT shoot rounds that have any resistance when closing the bolt. I have seen big swings in point of impact by doing so.
I know benchresters (at least most) do not like ammo that has resistance when closing the bolt either.

Yes, body die is for full length resizing.

Only use body die when chambering becomes difficult the ONLY bump the shoulder back until the dummy cartridge chambers easily.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
I know benchresters (at least most) do not like ammo that has resistance when closing the bolt either.

So true, although a lot of that has to do with potentially disturbing the gun on the bags, as opposed to being a universal statement about accuracy of tight fitting rounds.

It probably is true, though, that most BR shooters FL size (at least occasionally) these days. In days past, it was quite popular to shoot "fitted rounds", which were not sized at all.

- mike

I will not FL size a fired case unless the round cannot chamber anymore, and then only with a body die to bump the shoulder back a bit for the bolt to close again. I can't understand why any reloader would want to loose the advantage of a fire formed case that perfectly fits his rifle by FL size the case back to its original SAMMI specs. IMO FL sizing negates the fire formed advantage, which is one of the major reasons why reloads shoot on average better than factory ammunition that must fit all chambers.

Using a FL die or body die properly still leaves a pretty good custom fit. You certainly won't take a belted mag back to anywhere near it's original factory dimensions if you are careful.
I'm not a benchrester but have talked to many and right now most are using FL dies that have had the neck reamed so that they get exactly the neck tension they want without pulling an expander ball back through. AND they are usually setting up for just a tiny amount of headspace (like .001"). Thesee are things the average guy can do with a lee collet die and a body die, or even a carefully set up factory FL die.

The discussion about FL vs. NS just goes to show that there are few absolute truths in shooting. People manage to get good results using a plethora of techniques and options. If you get good results with XX (replace with FL or NS as appropriate) sizing, why change?? We will never be able to establish an absolute truth here.

- mike

I think it is entirely possible that many who say they FL resize are resizing just barely enough to get rid of the crush fit, like kraky alluded to. That is what I call Partial Full Length Resizing and is setting the case shoulder to the exact point where it contacts the chamber but does not bind against it.

That kind of sizing would definitely work the brass less than pushing the shoulder back to FL dimensions.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
I think it is entirely possible that many who say they FL resize are resizing just barely enough to get rid of the crush fit, like kraky alluded to. That is what I call Partial Full Length Resizing and is setting the case shoulder to the exact point where it contacts the chamber but does not bind against it.

That kind of sizing would definitely work the brass less than pushing the shoulder back to FL dimensions.

I, for one, always try to use FL dies in exactly this way. Smooth chambering with minimal working of the brass, and less chance of encountering a casehead separation. Nothing wrong with those goals!

I also adopt a few tricks from the accuracy shooters, and have my FL dies inside neck honed to avoid the use of an expander - just as Kraky referred to above.

Ideally, we would all have our FL (or bump, or whatever you call them) dies cut to match our chambers. It is entirely possible to have this done, but it is quite costly. But it would be an advantage.

Speaking of lack of absolute truths, though. One thing which has struck me in the recent past, is that it is always impossible to exactly predict what will work in one rifle as opposed to another. Case in point, in the last couple of years I have worked with quite a few R93 barrels. They normally shoot pretty well for factory barrels, but you still can't predict exactly what will work. E.g. in one barrel, brand new brass produces the best groups, yet in another brass with a crush fit easily out shoots new brass. Go figure, because I sure as heck have not figured out why sometimes A and sometimes B???

- mike

mho,

Kraky, I understand what you are suggesting, but I must still ask myself the question why would the average reloader, by FL sizing, go to the expense (and trouble I may add) to carefully set up the FL die every time and guess (without the necessary gauges)what the tiny headspace must be for a close "custom fit", if by Neck sizing the fired case only, the correct chamber fit already exist. The required neck tension can be achieved by using a neck bushing die with the expander ball removed.

But then again, mho is properly correct in his assertion….why change if you are happy with the results of your reloads.

quote:

Originally posted by SA Reloader:
...why would the average reloader, by FL sizing, go to the expense (and trouble I may add) to carefully set up the FL die every time and guess (without the necessary gauges)what the tiny headspace must be for a close "custom fit"

So true, which is why I have come to the conclusion you can't (or at least shouldn't) share FL sizing dies between rifles. I also keep brass separate, as a die adjusted in a particular way depends on the dimensions of the fired brass to produce exactly the sized dimensions you want.

Yes, that is a bit more expensive, as you have to invest in a separate FL die as well as brass for each gun. Btw, I also keep seaters separate for each gun, so I don't have to adjust them all the time for different seating depths with different bullets. The only dies I occasionally share between rifles are NS dies. All extra expense, and all extra hassle, but this is what works for me.

Btw, I use a Stoney Point headspace gauge to set my FL dies to bump shoulders back .001-.002". The gauge may not be the abolute ultimate in repeatability, but it is economical to buy and allows you to quantify the FL sizing die set up process.

- mike

There is also another thing going on with these cases during their lifespan. The cases do not develop a crush fit immediately with the first firing.

For example, 2 different rifles, measured with the Stoney Point Head & Shoulders Gauge and sized with the die noted

30-06 Steyr factory WW cases
New cases - 4.0400" (the measurement doesn't matter only its relationship to the other measurements)
Once fired - 4.0485" Lee Collet neck sized, no crush fit
Twice fired - 4.0500" Lee Collet neck sized, not crush fit
3 times fired - 4.0510" Lee Collet neck sized, slight crush fit
4 times fired - 4.0515" (crush fite) Lee Collet, Redding Body Die back to 4.0510"

For every firing after that the cases would have a crush fit and have to have the shoulder pushed back.

280AI custom Hart barrel, Nosler 280AI brass
New cases - 4.1350"
Once fired - 4.1500"
Twice fired - 4.1520"
3 times fired - 4.1530" at which point they had a crush fit and had to have the shoulder pushed back to 4.1520"

Now this 3 or 4 cycles of neck sizing only can be short circuited by using the Redding Body Die immediately and in sizing the case body it will push the shoulder forward almost enough to get to a crush fit. Definitely a crush fit by 3 times fired.

kraky, I think you said previously that if you FL sized on once fired that you could size the same everytime after that. Do you monitor the progress with a gauge?

So Woods Is the above only apply to new brass?
Or lets say after the 4th firing on the 30-06 crush fit you resize back to 4.0485 will the fired brass requir 3 more firings to reach crush of 4.0515?
Also on my bushing dies for single load I am sizing my necks with a loose fit for single shot firing but I am using it with the free floating carbide expander ball. Would I benifit from loosing the expander? if so how?

quote:

Originally posted by Dgc940:
So Woods Is the above only apply to new brass?
Or lets say after the 4th firing on the 30-06 crush fit you resize back to 4.0485 will the fired brass requir 3 more firings to reach crush of 4.0515?

Good question. I've never pushed the shoulder that far back after the 4th firing. The reason is that I want to use the minimum amount of sizing in order to work the brass the least possible. When the firing pin hits the primer it will drive the case forward until the shoulder contact stops the forward movement, the case walls will expand outward to the chamber walls and grip, then the internal pressure pushes the case bottom back to the bolt face. This expansion happens most and the brass is thinned most at the pressure ring just above the case head. After a few firings that is where you could get a case head separation. So, if you trap the case with contact between the case-head/bolt-face and the case-shoulder/chamber-shoulder then you will minimize the amount of thinning at the pressure ring and your cases will last longer.

Don't know about your bushing dies since I use Lee Collets but anytime you can get rid of the expander ball is good. Main reasons are no more lube inside the neck and better concentricity. Now you may need the expander, I'm not sure.

Thanks for the explination woods!
wish someone could explain a little more why it's good to loose the expander. Your not dealing with a genious here! just a 1rst year student.

quote:

Originally posted by Dgc940:
wish someone could explain a little more why it's good to loose the expander.

A regular sizing die sizes the neck part of the case in the following fashion: first the case neck is sized down to a much smaller dimension than what is required as the final result. To rectify this (and to allow bullets to be seated), the expander is then wrested through the neck which is partially expanded again, to achieve the neck dimension decided by the die manufacturer.

This approach is a good news bad news story. On the plus side, this way of oversizing with ensuing partial expansion works well for brass, even after it has work hardened. The drawbacks of this method are numerous, however. First the brass is worked more than what is absolutely necessary, causing incresed work hardening and possibly shorter case life. Secondly, relying on the expander to supply the final neck dimension is a problem, as expanders are notoriously difficult to adjust to be completely centered in the die and case as it is sized. This in turn means, that expanders often pull necks (slightly) out of whack, producing what is known as "run-out".

If you happen to belong to the fraction of reloaders who believe run-out has a negative influence on accuracy, then you'd like to come up with options to reduce this expander created phenomenon. One way to attempt this, is to leave the expander assembly "loose" in the die, to allow the expander to "float" and hopefully center itself in the case - in theory producing less runout.

I tend to not use dies with expanders at all. One good option (even on a student's budget) is to use the Lee Collet neck sizing die. This produces very straight ammo at surprisingly low cost. Yes, the Collet Die has its own set of idiosynchracies (e.g. not working too well with work hardened brass), but it is still a pretty good alternative. Another is to have a Forster FL sizing die modified at the factory to be able to size without the expander. The mod consists of having the die inside neck honed to a particular diamter, and then loose the expander.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by Dgc940:
wish someone could explain a little more why it's good to loose the expander.

Well, then we're going to have to start talking about concentricity . When you pull the expander ball back through the neck, that pulling action will cant the neck off axis with the case. There are ways to mitigate the problem with an expander ball type like kraky explains in the last post on this thread. But if you don't figure out how to use the expander and still have low runout, then your accuracy will suffer.

Recently, on a Private Message discussion the question was brought up about whether a rubber "O" ring underneath the expander ball lock nut would allow the expander ball stem to "float" and thus lead to less runout. I did not have time to do the experiment so a well qualified distinguished gentleman (who has too much time on his hands but wishes to remain anonymous) did the experiment and found the following:

quote:

ok-- here we go--i'm gonna leave it to you big shots to tell me what all this means but here goes.

first i cleaned all brass very good.
second i just randomly picked a piece of brass and measured it before sizing. then i measured it after sizing and let the chips fall where they may.

first group was rcbs dies with the "o" ring
before sizing after sizing

1) .00125 .003
2) .00125 .00325
3) .00150 .003
4) .00150 .00225 rotated
5) .00150 .00225 rotated
6) .00150 .00200 rotated
7) .00125 .00225 rotated

rotated means that i turned case 180* before the downstroke and pulled it over the expander ball.

second bunch was rcbs dies w/o "o" ring

8) .002 .003
9) .00075 .004 go figure
10) .001 .002
11) .002 .003 rotate
12) .001 .00375 rotate
13) .001 .002 rotate

last group is w/ lee collet dies

14) .001 .00075
15) .00125 .00075
16) .00150 .00125
17) .002 .001
18) .00050 .001
19) .00225 .00125
20) .00050 .001

there it is men--- i'll diffur to your analysis i think that i've made mine

At least I came to the conclusion (again) that the Lee Collets (no expander ball) are worth much more than they cost.

There is also the problem that if you use an expander ball then you have to lube the inside of the neck . Another cause of inaccuracy is inconsistant bullet release. Different amounts of sizing oil left in the neck can lead to an inconsistant bullet release.

Once you get rid of your expander ball dies, you will not regret it. Without getting custom dies the 2 ways to do it are with Lee Collet or the Redding Bushing Dies discussed here and here.

Don, I am not sure what do you mean by "loosing the expander". Do you mean removing the expander ball all together or just loosening the stem that holds the expander so that the ball can self center itself when pulled back through the case neck?

The biggest problem with using an expander ball is that it can pull the neck of the case out of alignment when the case is pulled out of the die. Most likely this is so because the stem is not straight or the expander ball is mounted crooked on the decapping pin. A skew expander can even pull out the shoulder of the case far enough that the case will not chamber in your rifle. A twisted neck will most certainly cause bullet run-out, which is one of the biggest contributor in effecting accuracy. That is why many reloaders simply remove the expander ball when resizing fired cases. This you can do with your Redding bushing dies because the correct neck tension is determined by the proper size bushing you use. Even if a Bushing or Collet Die is not used, you only remove the expander ball, then neck- or full length sized the case, screw the expander assembly back in the die and push it into the neck of the sized case to expand the neck for a proper bullet fit. By "pushing" the expander ball into the neck, instead of "dragging" it out, will result in straighter necks.

It is however important to use the expander ball when sizing new brass. Expanders not only get dents out and make the inside diameter of the case neck round, they also push the high spot in the neck thickness to the outside of the neck so you will get an even grip on the bullet.

OK that clears up my misunderstanding thanks!
If I can I will ask one more than I will quit bothering y'all.
first of all the expander I am using is a free floating carbide button by redding this one
http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?catego...em=RD98X1&type=store

My dies are as stated bushing dies. I measured a loaded round and it measured I believe .249 so I ordered a .248 .247 and .246
I am currently using the .248 .0001 under so too my understanding of what y'all said I can just remove the button and my round should be right on the money if I pick the correct bushing.
Is this correct?

Correct

hey woods:

i happen to know that man and "distinguished" is definetly not the term that i would give him.

you should probably be fair and add that the rcbs dies were not tuned which i think would make some difference but probably not enough to be as consistant as the collet dies.

i myself use all collet dies, and the body die
with one exception. i have a set of redding dies that i installed the carbide floating expander that will give me runout of .001 or less on sized brass very very consistantly so i could not see the advantage of going to a collet die,but i do think that i was lucky in that particular set of dies.


b h