I have been trying to get my loads with little to no runout, so I invested in a redding FL bushing die for my 22-250 along with 4 different sizing bushings, I have been adjusting it and changing out bushings to get it right, I have found that brass with less than .001 runout will have at least .003 or more aftere running it through this redding bushing die, loaded ammo seated with a RCBS competition die , produces runout on average of .004 or more, today I went back to the basics and just used a RCBS FL die and my comp seater die, this produced loaded ammo with .002 or less runout, ie exactly what I am looking for. so essentially the redding setup is a piece of crap, that has caused me much greef I have wasted time and bullets with this type of die

Cummins, I hear you. Although I would not go as far as calling the Redding Bushing dies "cr@p", I have also experienced them producing quite a bit of runout in the past.

Did you remove the expander from the Redding die?? That is a prerequisite.

I like the bushing dies in the sense they give you a lot of flexibilty in adjusting neck tension. In this sense, they are the bees knees...

If you want low runout from your sizing session, a regular FL sizing die with the internal neck diameter honed to allow you to size without expander is normally a good bet. I use Forster dies ($10 for the modification + die + shipping), but I can't see why RCBS modified in the same fashion should not work just as well. Ask at RCBS if they do this mod, otherwise get a Forster.

- mike

I was noticing some of the case mouths where visably bent after sizeing, I think I am going to send back the whole bushing setup and just stay with my RCBS stuff. maybe with the loose factory neck in most factory rifles these type of dies just have to size the neck too much.

Hey cc

Again, I would recommend you get a Lee Collet Neck Sizer. They are cheap and you can buy 3 of them for what the Redding die costs.

A while ago right after I got my concentricity gauge I bought a Redding Type S Bushing Neck Sizing Die and the bushings to go along with it.

Was excited and it yielded a very consistant .007" runout. I haven't bought another one since. I thought mine was just a fluke so I don't badmouth them.

Switched to Lee Collets and now have one for every caliber. They are easy and not complicated and give me .002" runout or less. Some much less. Some posters gripe about them also but I think they are not setting them up right.

Lee Collet and Redding Body Dies!!

AMEN

.007 runout was not uncommon in my loaded rounds with the redding bushing die. I already have a lee collet neck sizer, I didn't play with it much because at the time It and my RCBS die will not give me enough neck tension with the norma brass I have, however it prolly would work great with the WW brass I have,

moral of the story, I spent a bunch of money on a Die that yeilded piss poor results, thats ok because midways is going to get it all back

Norma brass has the reputation of being too soft.

flaco

c c

On the Lee Collet run the lock nut all the way up to the top of the threads. When you raise the case up into the die the handle should be sticking straight out or close to it. Put about 25 to 50 pounds of your weight on the handle, lower the case and rotate it about 90 degrees. Resize the neck again.

I've got 8 Lee Collets in 8 different calibers and have resized WW, Remington, Norma and Nosler brass, all without a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I have been trying to get my loads with little to no runout, so I invested in a redding FL bushing die ... produces runout on average of .004 or more,

I sized 7,000 .223 cases with a Redding FL "S" die with .245" bushing that gets .004" runout.
This ammo averages 1" 5 shot groups at 100y

I sized a few fired .223 cases with a Forster FL .223 die with the neck honed at the factory for $10 to .245"
No measurable runout.
This ammo averages .5" 5 shot groups at 100y.

The brass has no runout after it is fired, but the floating bushing gives it runout.
Now I have to open the necks on 7,000 pieces of brass with a mandrel to undo the damage done by the "S" die.

I think the "S" die would do a fine job with a .250" neck chamber, but the the .255+" SAAMI factory chamber produces brass that has such large necks the floating bushing can't keep it concentric.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I have been trying to get my loads with little to no runout, so I invested in a redding FL bushing die ... produces runout on average of .004 or more,

I sized 7,000 .223 cases with a Redding FL "S" die with .245" bushing that gets .004" runout.
This ammo averages 1" 5 shot groups at 100y

I sized a few fired .223 cases with a Forster FL .223 die with the neck honed at the factory for $10 to .245"
No measurable runout.
This ammo averages .5" 5 shot groups at 100y.

The brass has no runout after it is fired, but the floating bushing gives it runout.
Now I have to open the necks on 7,000 pieces of brass with a mandrel to undo the damage done by the "S" die.

I think the "S" die would do a fine job with a .250" neck chamber, but the the .255+" SAAMI factory chamber produces brass that has such large necks the floating bushing can't keep it concentric.

I think you nailed it, if you have a gun with a tight neck custom chamber maybe the bushing set up would work, but the problem as I see it the bushing has to squish the neck down such that it causes one side or the other to pucker slightly the shrinkage of the neck has to go somewhere. this is where the runout takes place, I would run nearly strait fired brass, ie .0005 or less necks through the bushing die only to measure them after sizing and they would instantly have .004 or more runout in the neck, running these same cases back through my RCBS FL die would straighten these bushing sized necks somewhat, maybe to .002 or so, but still not as good as fired dimensions, so in order to fix the brass, IMO they need to be fired in the gun again

To me, the Redding bushing dies are about as desirable as the RCBS "X" die -- and I have no use for either. I have standard Redding, RCBS, CH-4D, Pacific, Lyman, Hornady and Lee and have been completely satisfied with the results (and I'm pretty demanding when it comes to accuracy). As to NS dies, the Lee collet is a terrific bargain. My second favorite in the NS department is Redding.

Thank God - I thought it was just me having probs with these bushing dies - nice to know I am not alone.

Pete

If you guys are trying to use the bushing dies in a factory spec neck,they won't work very well,redding addresses this in there web page.Only way to get very low run out with them is run the case true a bushing just a bit smaller than the fired brass,then change bushing to what you want to end up with,and resize them again.Much more trouble than it was worth to me with the factory chambers,unless you have a pretty tight neck,say .005 or less than the fired brass .At least this has been my experience!

I have a bench full of Redding dies and think they're great, but I only own one set of bushing dies. I will not call them junk as they perform one very specific function: custom size cases for non-SAAMI standard and wildcat rounds.
Having said that, my best results have always been turned in by Forster/Bonanza dies, worst by RCBS. And of the worst, I didn't blame RCBS for the concentricity issues, I blamed Ruger and their off-center chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
but the problem as I see it the bushing has to squish the neck down such that it causes one side or the other to pucker slightly the shrinkage of the neck has to go somewhere. this is where the runout takes place,

Now that I have purchased a bunch of Redding Type S FL Bushing Dies you have me concerned.

If the bushing has to squish the neck down, doesn't the RCBS FL Die have to squish the neck down as well? Wouldn't the "Squishing" problem be the same for both types of dies? The only difference being that the bushing die can increase or decrease the neck diameter.

Time for me to purchase a runout gauge.

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
but the problem as I see it the bushing has to squish the neck down such that it causes one side or the other to pucker slightly the shrinkage of the neck has to go somewhere. this is where the runout takes place,

Now that I have purchased a bunch of Redding Type S FL Bushing Dies you have me concerned.

If the bushing has to squish the neck down, doesn't the RCBS FL Die have to squish the neck down as well? Wouldn't the "Squishing" problem be the same for both types of dies? The only difference being that the bushing die can increase or decrease the neck diameter.

Time for me to purchase a runout gauge.

any of the expander ball dies work by sizing the neck down a little more than needed and then on the down stroke the expander ball pulls through the cartridge neck, so essentially you are sizing both sides or the neck, with the bushing style dies you are simply forcing the outer part of the neck into a smaller hole, imagine trying to shrink down a can so it fits into a slightly smaller hole, or for that matter what happens when you put too large of a hose onto too small of a barbed fitting and tighten down the hose clamp, the excess puckers at the path of least resistance, in this case the brass becomes out of round, this is less of a factor with an expander ball also running inside the neck to straighten it back out again, IMO these bushing dies are only for rifles with custom chambers with much tighter necks that way the amount of sizeing the neck of the brass is very minimal, in that case I think they would prolly work great

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
any of the expander ball dies work by sizing the neck down a little more than needed and then on the down stroke the expander ball pulls through the cartridge neck, so essentially you are sizing both sides or the neck, with the bushing style dies you are simply forcing the outer part of the neck into a smaller hole,

But, my Redding Bushing Dies "DO' have an expander ball that pulls back through the cartridge neck on the up-stroke. Am I missing something here?

Thanks

your right there is an expander in there, I don't know what the problem is then, seems like several of us are having the same issues with these FL dies, no issues with regular dies

Is it because the RCBS Die has a bit of a taper to the neck sizing part. This allows the neck to slide in to the sizing die easier were as the bushing die is the same size through and through. To much for the brass to handle when the neck contacts the bushing? I duno?

I've been using a Forster for most stuff, but I remove the expander ball so I don't "pull" the neck out upon resizing. After resizing I put the expander ball back in and size the neck. Theory being, that way the neck is only sized on the down stroke and not on the up stroke after the case has been resized. Now I have read some threads where folks do not like removing the expander, but it works for me. Usually get .003 or less on 90% of loads.


Simdow

Well, I don't understand the purpose of the expander ball in a bushing die anyway.

Take a 30-06 that I have a bushing die for and have fired, Lee Collet neck sized and loaded rounds for

Fired cases are .342"
Neck sized .332"
Loaded .333"

measured on the outside of the neck. I bought a .329" bushing. So if I just unscrewed the expander ball and resized with only the bushing then I should have .004" grip (.333-.329).

From the way the die is constructed the bushing will size the neck to the size of the bushing, then the expander ball comes up through the .329" neck and expands the inside of the neck back to whatever dimension it is, which happens to be .307" in my die. So the bushing seems like tits on a boar hog. How is it different than a regular FL die if the expander is going to jerk up through there and expand it to whatever dimension it is? And add runout like all expander dies?

I think I'm going to try it again and take the expander button off. Might have a lot of bullet grip at .004. Recently saw a thread somewhere that posted enhanced accuracy at .004" going from .001" up though.

To me the bushings would make sense if there were no expander ball and you could buy a bushing to regulate your bullet grip.

Edited:

Wait a minute, I just noticed a little plastic bag in the Redding Bushing Die box with a small diameter replacement for the expander button. This would allow you to keep the depriming pin and not have an expander button. So it seems like they gave an option to do without the expander.

Woods, Can't you just pull the decapping rod ,chuck it into a drill and reduce the size of the expander ball to your desired size? That way you can use a smaller bushing and still round things out with the expander ball

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
Woods, Can't you just pull the decapping rod ,chuck it into a drill and reduce the size of the expander ball to your desired size? That way you can use a smaller bushing and still round things out with the expander ball

Not necessary unless you need a deprimer. I use a Universal decapper anyway. If you don't need to deprime then you can just unscrew the expander ball and take out the depriming pin.

A little more experimentation. Try this c c

1. Remove the expander as above
2. Loosen the lock nut on the decapping rod and unscrew the decapping rod enough to give some play on the bushing and let if free float.
3. Resize some brass and check concentricity on each one as you go.
4. When you find one with little or no runout, put it back in the die and raise it up into the bushing.
5. Tighten the decapping rod down on the bushing. Essentially you are trying to lock the bushing in place on a concentric case.
6. Resize some more and see if it helps with the remainder.

I think that you will get much better results with good quality brass that has been neck turned to uniform neck thickness. With brass that has varying neck thickness you are just pushing the variations in neck thickness to the inside of the case.

c c, I do think you might be right that the bushing dies are best for tight necked custom chambers and the less squeezing the better.

Forget all that!

I just fooled around with that bushing die for 5 cases trying everything mentioned. I got varying runout from .0015" to .005". I had 3 cases left that had been fired so I put in my Lee Collet and all 3 came in at exactly .001" runout. They have less bullet grip at .332" while the Redding Bushing actually measured .327".

My advice, get a Lee Collet!

Surprised to read about all the struggles with the bushing die. When I bought my Redding bushing die it came with an extra holder for the depriming pin so the expander could be removed so I removed the expander on day one and never had a problem. Got lucky with my idea I guess and still don't need to waste money on a concentricity gauge.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
still don't need to waste money on a concentricity gauge.

Hey Dwight

Don't mean to be a smart-@$$ or anything, but how do you know you don't have a problem?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
still don't need to waste money on a concentricity gauge.

Hey Dwight

Don't mean to be a smart-@$$ or anything, but how do you know you don't have a problem?

First I don't consider you a smart **s guy but enjoy your many post. I shoot very small groups with all my rifles and have done so for over 30yrs so why chase something just to be chasing it? Seems kind of silly to me. The more I read about runout the more you guys seem to be running in circles. Just like a chrony can ruin your accuracy when you start chasing speed. I like the KISS theory. Keep it simple stupid and things just seem to work better that way if you just let it.

Well, if you don't need to chase it, I can understand that.

Probably like most here, I have several rifles in different calibers that want to shoot about an inch with a few fliers that will expand that. Through chasing concentricity most of mine will now shoot 1/2" to 3/4" with fewer fliers.

I'm gonna beat it yet or at least take away the variable of runout.

I never heard of runout until I joined the forum so it has never been a variable to me and never will be. I guess my processes eliminate it so that it never becomes and issue. My rifles shoot in the .2s, .3s and .5s so if it ain't broke don't fix it. I don't weigh brass, don't turn necks and don't debur flash holes either. I was helping one of our new members set up some dies this weekend and he asked me lots of questions about this and that and kept pulling out targets to go with my answers and his buddy said I wish you quit pulling out those targets. I thought he may want some proof to go with the BS I said.

I lot of stuff that I have read in the past two years has been baffling, entertaining and quite puzzling. Some educational as well.
My 1982 7mm08 shoots in the .2s and I read that my 3 piece cleaning rod would destroy accuracy. It hasn't hurt since 1982. I did buy and nice dewey rod last year and a bore guide.
Seems to me a lot of people just make a big deal out of nothing.
I am not the greatest loader or shooter around but real down to earth. My stuff shoots real good without 10 more steps added to the process so I just have to chuckle when I read about runout.

IMHO lee makes a few good products there collet die and there factory crimp starter are two of them.

A lot of people like the Lee products. I have no opinion since I have not tried them. I started with RCBS and have some Redding and Forster Comp dies. If I had to pick a favorite right now it would be the Forster. All of them should satisfy the average reloader.

I also remove the expanders from my bushing dies and use a universal decapping die. I use them for my custom chambers and run out is as small or smaller as any other dies that I own including my Lee collet dies.

IMHO in the top 10 of the best reloading inventions in the last 50 years, are the Lee collet sizer and the Lee crimp die.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

IMHO in the top 10 of the best reloading inventions in the last 50 years, are the Lee collet sizer and the Lee crimp die.

If I can guess the other 8, will you e-mail me the uncensored version of your avatar?