The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Has anyone ever seen a rifle hurt by firelapping?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I'm in the last ditch effort to get a Ruger M77MKII to reduce fouling and hopefully tighten up to under a very picky 1.5" at 100. My Tubb final finish firelapping kit arrived yesterday, so it's final truth time. I hear lots of praise for firelapping factory tubes, but it still leaves me a bit nervous. Soooo.... Has anyone ever had a factory barrel actually shoot significantly WORSE after firelapping? I can see the benefits being hit or miss, but does it ever hurt. I know it adds a bit of wear and lengthens the throat a bit...this rifle is pretty short throated to begin with so I'm not too concerned. Its a hunting and plinking rifle first and foremost. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | ||
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you CAN ruin one, as the effect is nto exactly the same as hand lapping... but, if it doesn't suit you as it is, then try it! what caliber? ruger mkiI? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I have a M70 Super Grade manufactured in the early 90'ties chambered in .300 Win Mag. Although the barrel originally shot well, it was probably the worst fouling barrel I ever owned. As a final desperate move, we decided to firelap it. I can't say for a fact, that the firelapping damaged the barrel, but after it was firelapped, velocities dropped noticeably. I did not have a measurement of pre-lapping freebore, so I can't verify the rifling moving forward because of the lapping, but I halfway expect it did. In the end, I got rid of that barrel and replaced it with a a stainless MRC barrel. It was worth the effort and expense. The gun now shoots well and does not foul at all. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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Yeah, I'm gonna try it I guess. I can't afford to spend as much as the rifle cost again to rebarrel, and I don't feel good about just pawning it off on some unsuspecting person at a gun show. You can see copper streaks at the muzzle after the first shot. After a range session of 20 it takes waaaaay to long to clean. I have a good 150+ rounds down it and it's not improving. Yes it's a MK II, bought new in Feburary of this year from a wholesaler via a FFL bearing friend, and it's a 280Rem. I have several measurements already taken to see what the effect is on bore and throat dimensions, and I will be quite anal in following the recommended procedure. It'll take 5 range trips, as I plan on a very thorough cleaning between strings. MHO, you said the velocities dropped. Did the accuracy suffer as well? How much velocity did you lose? I'll gladly give up 50-100 fps to gain easy cleaning and better accuracy. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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Before I firelapped that barrel I try working it over real well with some JB. If that doesn't buy you anything then do what you want. I've only known one person that has firelapped a barrel with positive results. So I'll have to tell you a new barrel is probably cheaper than and new gun with a factory barrel that might not shoot either. | |||
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I have a remington 25-06 that has the lands totally streaked in 2 shots. Yet that gun shoot and shoots and shoots EVERYTHING FANTASTIC. It doesn't lose accuracy after lots of rounds. I wouldn't touch that barrel with anything. What are you using to clean your barrel?? If you arent soaking overnight with wipeout you may not have a problem at all. All that being said I've seen far more good results posted after the Tubbs system. Let us know how it all turns out. I will be surprised if you accuracy improves much but your cleaning may get easier. AGAIN---until you've tried Wipeout you don't know if you have a cleaning problem. | |||
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When I get a new rifle I usually polish the bore really well with JB followed by flitz, I dont usually even shoot the gun first but I cant imagine it hurting anything, I dont think that polishing it by hand is quite as drastic as fire lapping though | |||
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might want to consider lapping with the last few finer abrasive bullets instead of beginning with the coarse ones as your barrel cannot be that bad- something to consider. I done used that Tubbs on my Ruger Bisley and it did improve considerably in the same method as I mentioned to you. Hate to tell you what to do on your rifle- just my .02 | |||
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i have heard on several occasions of throats moving forward after using the tubb system. i have no personal experience with it because i wouldn't run that crap through one of my rifles. just my 2¢. PLEASE EXCUSE CAPS, HANDICAPPED TYPIST. "THE" THREAD KILLER IT'S OK......I'VE STARTED UP MY MEDS AGAIN. THEY SHOULD TAKE EFFECT IN ABOUT A WEEK. (STACI-2006) HAPPY TRAILS HANDLOADS ARE LIKE UNDERWEAR....BE CAREFUL WHO YOU SWAP WITH. BILL | |||
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I've been researching this exact same issue on several forums for about a month now trying to decide if the Tubb final finish kit right for me and a rifle I am trying to get to shoot. From what I have seen so far after about 20 hours of researching it, it seems that 90% of people who have used it have posative expirences (the tubb kit) and the majority of users who post bad things about it have not used it. I think there is some merit to the whole throat moving forward thing, but I would suspect that they shoot too many of the highly abrasive compounds thinking "more is better". I think if done right it can make a big difference in cleaning and it seems you have a 50/50 chance of it helping accuracy. If and when you decide to use it please let me know as I am in the EXACT same situation you are in currently and am sitting on the edge of my seat. | |||
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Working from memory here, probably of the order of 100 fps velocity loss in the lapped barrel. I don't recall accuracy having suffered to a point where that stood out as a problem. But hey, it was hunting gun, and a .300 at that. I might have looked closer at this issue if it had been my pet target rifle in 6 PPC, say. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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I am also considering using this product for a gun. The MidwayUSA.com website allows users who have purchased and used a product to post reviews of it, and, FWIW, all the reviews of this product on their site are positive. LWD | |||
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Thanks for all the comments! FWIW, the barrel fouls like an old pitted military barrel....the toolmarks in the grooves hold crap. It never truely comes clean. I have worked it over with Flitz and have enough rounds downrage to believe that it is not something that will break in or be fixed with mild work. Here's my post on the barrel issues. This is a last ditch effort to before I send it back to Ruger or to a 'smith. At this point I feel the barrel is junk, so I guess I can't hurt anything. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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Or is it that 90% of the users are not about to say "I am a idiot, and I F'ed up my barrel"? (that's if they even know what a good/bad barrel looks like). I don't have a fouling problem with any of my barrels, but I'm also not dealing with factory/bargin basement tubes. But as a last ditch attempt to salvage a crap tube, than I say "why not give it a try?" | |||
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I recall a 416 taylor shooter saying that they FINALLY could get the 2400 "as advertised" after firelapping... they couldn't get to the "published" load without pressure, after firelapping, the could jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I have personally firelapped from 6-12 barrels. I was very pleased with the results in every case. The first was a 7mm mag Ruger 77 that would foul out after the first three shots. 1st group = about 3/4" 2nd group = 1 1/2" third group and thereafter = 2 1/2" After 4 hours of aggressive copper cleaning the groups would repeat almost exactly. I firelapped the heck out of that barrel using industrial grade diamond abrasives of progressively smaller sizes. Once the process was finished the rifle shoots right around 3/4" average, for at least, up to 10 groups (three shot groups) before cleaning. It's now a shooter for more than just the first group. Cleaning time dropped to much less than one hour. On a 7mmBR encore barrel that I firelapped I measured the throat before and after and it moved the throat out by .180 inch. On that barrel I made the mistake of putting abrasive on the ogive and I'm certain that contributed heavily to the throat movement. Keep it on the parallel and it should keep throat movement to a minimum. I saw no change in the accuracy of that barrel but it really cleaned much easier. Also firelapped a 25-06 that had a terribly rough barrel and it is now a sub 1" shooter. It is one of my favorite rifles now and cleaning is very much in line with what I consider to be normal / acceptable. No proof that it improved accuracy but I'm certain it did not hurt it. I have no trouble with firelapping, just use high quality abrasives applied evenly on the parallel of the bullets, work progressively finer and take it slow and easy. You can always repeat the process if necessary. It has saved many factory barrels from being fouling monsters for me and I have never seen a decrease in accuracy. It seems emotions run a little high about firelapping. Some believe some do not. Everyone can make their own choice and live with the consequences (good or bad) of their own decisions. There is no reason to be hostile or call names over a simple difference of opinion. Then there are those that choose and can afford to shoot only "custom tubes". Great, fantastic, but please let the rest of us attempt to improve those guns that we already own without being called stupid. I personally have had great results with firelapping and reducing cleaning time. I have never seen a decrease in accuracy. Maybe I have been lucky, but I'm willing to try firelapping again if I find a gun that I feel may benefit from the process. I use copper jacketed bullets for my firelapping and I embed the abrasive in the copper jacket by rolling the bullet in the paste between two steel plates. Thanks Joe | |||
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I do the same, except that I use a new bore mop after about 100 strokes. You'd be amazed at the crap that comes out of some barrels. On one basket case 8m/m mauser I had, I first used steel wool and liquid wrench, then automotive valve lapping compound, and after that JB's. The results were good! | |||
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As posted before, fire-lapping kept me from throwing my brand new Bushmaster "Super-Varminter" into the dust bin. Before firelapping it would not reliably keep three shots in 2-3/4" groups at 100 yards. After fire-lapping, it will now shoot 10-shot groups under an inch with just about any good bullet from 52 grains up. And, yes, it was returned to Bushmaster before the firelapping. They did nothing to improve it. I like others, find it amazing how some people can badmouth other folks, and denigrate the process in general, when they have never tried it and therefore really know NOTHING for sure about it. It's one thing to say the process doesn't sound like one they would choose to use, and that they don't trust it. I can understand and empathize with that. But it's entirely another thing to be insulting and arrogant because of a personal opinion based on nothing more than ignorance arising from a lack of personal experience. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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A few years ago, I fire lapped (with the Tubb system) my .308 Win. Didn't hurt it, and it reduced the fouling quite a bit. Spent some time with some Fitz polish, and now the rifle hardly ever fouls. Far cry from the copper stripper it was before. If it is the last stop before turing the gun into a tomato stake, go ahead and try it. Follow the instructions closly, and start with the finer bullets. | |||
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This is how the Wheeler engineering fire lapping kit works. It is supplied with two ground steel bars to apply the abrasive loaded paste to your own bullets. It comes with 3 grades, 220, 320, and 600 grit. You can decide which to use or to only use the finest to polish. I did a savage 7mm mag that was bought at a pawn shop. Some yahoo had spun a brush in the bore with apparently steel wool on it! The scratches were directly ACCROSS the lands at 90 degrees to them. I ran 20 bullets for each grit through it, the before groups looked like a buckshot load froma cyl. bore 12 ga. After it settled into being a 1.5 inch grouper, satisfactory for a whitetail hunter. The kit is sold by Midway, probably others too. if you run, you just die tired It's not that life is so short, it's that death is sooo long! Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short. Your faithful dog | |||
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CDH, I have personally firelapped or been involved in helping firelap a load of rifles. I have never seen one worsen in accuracy. It does push on the throat a bit I reckon, sometimes I've measured, sometimes not, but the rifles performed better by some measure (less fouling at least, sometimes better accuracy) every time. I've taken to using some of Seafires Blue Dot loads to lap with, lower power rounds so to speak. I think it would be almost universal for pressure/velocity to drop a bit after, you're making the barrel smoother--so I think that makes sense, I've not seen big velocity drops, (a couple of times it increased) in the rigs I chrono'd before and after. Having said that about firelapping, I would certainly try it on you rig, please let us know how it works out-- but I have several friends and acquaintances that had rugers that wouldn't shoot regardless of what they tried, all but one of em has traded them away! | |||
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Congratulations to you sir, on running custom tubes on your rifles. Perhaps I should have clarified my above statement by saying that on a custom tube'd gun you probably would not want to fire lap the barrel until you think it's been shot out. You want to skip firelapping a new "custom" barrel (depending on the maker of the barrel) as it is usually lapped at the factory. For the rest of us with factory tubes that do not live up to expectations are we to live with what we see as sub standard performance, or just live with crappy results? I don't know about you but if I buy a product and it doesn't work as advertised I wouldn't hesitate to post about it to warn other members. It doesn't reflect on intelligence if one is trying to explore where others have not. It does however reflect on ones intelligence if one blindly bashes a product without trying it. Saeeds comments: http://www.accuratereloading.com/fire.html Savage Shooter's Test: http://www.savageshooters.net/Pages/Reviews/Tubb_FinalFinish_Review.html Rifle Shooter Mag: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/finish_0723/ Sniper Country: http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/DavidTubbsFinalFinish.asp http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/FirelapAmmu_Neco.asp Midway 308 Reviews: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=513887 Shortmags Review: http://www.shortmags.org/shortmags/snitzforum/topic.asp...chTerms=fire,lapping http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/lapping.html | |||
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I have firelapped three barrels. I have a 243 that shoots extremely well after lapping. My 25-06 went from a 1" gun at 100 to a .6" gun at 100 and fouls a lot less. Both guns needed new loads developed after lapping. According to Tubb's website you may need to add a tiny bit more powder to get the same velocity. The smoother bore doesn ot develope as much pressure as a rough one. Seating depth also had to be changed. I did not have great results with my .22LR. I think the lapping changed the throat length. i can't adjust the seating depth on my .22 so I had to find a new brad of ammo that would shoot well in it. I would reccomend this for centerfires, but not for rimfires. | |||
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Can you hurt a rifle with Fire lapping -- Sure. Easy.... Just keep shooting abrasive bullets till the cows come home and your bore will be nice and oversized with a loooonnnnngggggg throat. Can you do it to solve a specific set of problems a gun has? Sure, it works well for that.... Firelapping Specifically cures: Constriction in the bore at the throat (Sometimes bad with revolvers) Constriction in the bore down the barrel Rough/loose spots and tool marks causing constrictions My old Marlin 30-30 never shot worth a lick -- Nice uniform 6-9" groups at 100 yds. Finally slugged the barrel.... Bore just past the throat was constricted to 0.304" Dia.... Yeah, supposed to be 0.308 right? Muzzle end slugged at about 0.3087" Then a real bad loose spot about 1/2 way down the barrel... Makes for great accuracy. Figured I could get Marlin to rebarrel for ~$200 if I ruined the barrel. | |||
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