Hi. I have been having an issue with the Winchester model 70, 270 win. I reload for the rifle and have found it to be misfiring frequently. The gunsmith has checked the rifle and replaced the spring. No head spacing, safety catch, trigger, cleaning bolt or any other issues. I have changed primers, checked seating depth of primers as well. However, even after replacing the spring the rifle continues to misfire. I subsequently bought factory ammunition and didnt have a single misfire. Is there something i could have done wrong on the reloading process that could be leading to this issue and what can i do to rectify it.

If factory ammo doesn't misfire, it is likely your reloads are setting the shoulder back too much. This creates a headspace issue that is ammo related and not rifle related.

Bobster might be right.

Fire a couple of factory rounds.

Run both cases in the resizing dies very little - only so hat the top of the necks are sized, nothing else.

Remove the fired primers by unscrewing the decapping rod from the sizing die, and using a hammer to remove the spent primers.

Prime the cases, load them with your favorite charge, and seat bullets and fire them.

If they fire you have your problem solved.

Die problem.

Yep, the shoulder is too far back allowing the case to go too far into the chamber.
Is there a slight dent in the primer that did not fire?

yes a slight dent. About half the dent made by the ones that fire. So if just bumped to far back it means the die set has to set to much and should be turned out? thanks

Common problem with new reloaders. Make your brass fit your chamber snugly. You can’t just set the die down and forget it. I like to have a slight “feel “ when closing the bolt.
And as stated if it won’t fire factory rounds then it’s not your reloads. (It will).

quote:

No head spacing, safety catch, trigger, cleaning bolt or any other issues.

You have a Winchester Model 70 with a 270 chamber, there is a pre and a post Model 70.I took a model 70 warranty shop, the rifle had the ugliest chamber I had ever seen. Winchester instructed the smith to polish the chamber, ream the chamber, remove the gouges, reduce the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face and reduce the diameter of the chamber.

The rifle was supposed to be new, I gave them more time than they needed to repair the rifle, months later I stopped in to check the rifle, Winchester instructed them to return the rifle to Winchester.

After they returned it to me months and months and months later I took it to the firing range: the bolt would not close on loaded ammo, they returned the rifle to me with a new box, I thought that was nice, I put the rifle back into the new box and that is where it has been for 14 years.

I fixed the feed problem but never fired the rifle. It is a 300 Winchester Mag.

F. Guffey

quote:

. Is there something I could have done wrong on the reloading process that could be leading to this issue and what can I do to rectify it.

I suggest you learn to size cases and I also suggest you learn to measure fired and sized cases.

F. Guffey

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
If factory ammo doesn't misfire, it is likely your reloads are setting the shoulder back too much. This creates a headspace issue that is ammo related and not rifle related.

^^^^This is exactly what I was going to say.

Zeke

PS:

Not all dies should be screwed down tight+ onto the shell holder if you're trying to have proper ammo for YOUR rifle. You MIGHT have to but that doesn't mean you should every time.

I have Hornady dies for my daughter's 300 WIn and I can (I don't) create way too much headspace if I screw the die all the way down. Sometimes the interface between the shell holder and the die is slightly off but that doesn't mean the setup is defective.

Zeke

There is a lot of variations even in the shell holders.

The distance between the bottom of the case and the part that touches the die when screwed all the way down varies quite a bit.

https://lewilson.com/case-gage...nd%20case%20trimming

and....

https://lewilson.com/case-gage-depth-micrometer

There is a way to get the same results with a $10 set of feeler gauges but I would have to type two pages of instructions.

OK. It wasn't three pages but it did take 30 minutes with edits.



Take a once fired factory loaded round and set it into your press.  DO NOT SET THE DIE YET!  REMOVE THE PRIMER REMOVING PIN!  Run the ram up all the way and screw the die body down until it just meets the factory case.  Use as much pressure turning it as you would to put the cap back on the toothpaste tube.  Take a Sharpe and draw a line down your die body, locking nut and mark a spot on the press at that position.  That is close to the spot you want to set your die when reloading once fired.  You can adjust up or down with some feeler gages by backing the die body out 1/8 th turn and see how many thousands that equals with the feeler gage.  Place feeler gage between case holder and base of die.  It would be reasonable to assume the same could be had buy turning down the same amount, i.e. 1/8th turn to achieve a set back of .003" to .005".   That's what I go for with my gas guns for matches.  Reliable and provides much improved accuracy.

Yes it does. And it is a lot cheaper to grind on the shell holder than the die. Also, a good reason to keep a set of feeler gauges next to the reloading bench.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There is a lot of variations even in the shell holders.

The distance between the bottom of the case and the part that touches the die when screwed all the way down varies quite a bit.

There is also this....

https://www.amazon.com/Competi...er-Set/dp/B00015MFG6

Ok, you don't need to measure anything, any gauges, feeler or otherwise, or anything else. No one cares what the actual dimension are; the only thing that matters is your rifle and your brass. Just adjust the die up and down until you get a slight feel when closing the bolt,
As far as belted mag brass and chambers go; look at the SAAMI specs; there is so much tolerance between a min brass and max chamber that you will be amazed. So, don't use the belt for anything,
Better yet, cone. on over and I'll show you how to do it, Keep it simple for new reloaders and they will learn.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, you don't need to measure anything, any gauges, feeler or otherwise, or anything else. No one cares what the actual dimension are; the only thing that matters is your rifle and your brass. Just adjust the die up and down until you get a slight feel when closing the bolt,
As far as belted mag brass and chambers go; look at the SAAMI specs; there is so much tolerance between a min brass and max chamber that you will be amazed. So, don't use the belt for anything,
Better yet, cone. on over and I'll show you how to do it, Keep it simple for new reloaders and they will learn.

Yes exactly keep it simple, but surprised the gunsmith didn't pick up on this, presumably he would have asked what ammo was giving misfires. Then run a few of the customers primed cases through after replacing the mainspring.

Your once fired will show where you need to size to. Use your rifle chamber, or use your die to measure against that.... I think the die gives a better feel than closing a bolt on it.

I have shell holders from every conceivable manufacturer.

They all work, most of the time.

But, sometimes one gets a particular rifle that makes you scratch your head.

Practically all problems I have had were from custom made rifles in Europe.

One particular 338 Lapua Magnum was something else.

I have dies for this cartridge from several makers.

Non worked.

I have many shell holders which I have modified.

With mixing and matching I managed to get to to work, and gave those that worked to the owner of the rifle.

He calls my workshop the grotto!

quote:

Originally posted by Biggsma:
I subsequently bought factory ammunition and didnt have a single misfire. Is there something i could have done wrong on the reloading process that could be leading to this issue and what can i do to rectify it.

Apparently so. Which means your reloads may not be safe. How are you adjusting the sizer die??
Sometimes there can be a slight variation in shell holders that could be contributing to your issue. But the bottom line is you need to learn to set your dies closer to your chamber specs. If you have any brass that has been fired from your rifle, that is your blueprint. Size it just enough to allow it to chamber.

My cases do not have headspace, Winchester returned a rifle to me that would not allow the extractor to jump the rim when closing the bolt. And any space between the case head and bolt face is called clearance.

Many years ago, before I started reloading I wanted to know about this thing called sizing the case. I started by scribing lines around the case at the datum and case body/shoulder junction. It was about that time I found it was impossible to move the shoulder back because the datum and case body/shoulder juncture moved toward the mouth of the case.

Before I started reloading I learned 'bump' was a function of a press and I read the directions and learned 'bump' is not a function of all presses; cam over presses are bump presses. Meaning? Cam over is not a luxury a reloader has on all presses. I have 12 Herter presses, all of my Herter presses are cam over presses meaning all of my Herter presses are bump presses. I have 3 Rock Chuckers by RCBS, none of my Rock Chuckers will cam over meaning none of my Rock Chucker presses is a bump press.

F. Guffey

What? All of my Rock Chucker presses will cam over. I still have no idea what bump is.
Anyway, not relevant to the OP's problem. He is sizing TOO much, and yes, setting the shoulder back. Come on over and I'll show anyone how to size cases for a particular rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What? All of my Rock Chucker presses will cam over. I still have no idea what bump is.
Anyway, not relevant to the OP's problem. He is sizing TOO much, and yes, setting the shoulder back. Come on over and I'll show anyone how to size cases for a particular rifle.

dpcd is 100% correct!

Call it "clearance" (I'm LOL) or headspace but whatever one wants to call it, OP has created excess of said "space" (headspace).

BTW. any press will SHOULDER BUMP the brass and even push the shoulder back too far (see OP's issue) if the interface between shell holder and sizer die is such and incorrectly adjusted for YOUR rifle! This is why the feel of the rifle "bolt press" is by far the easiest and most accurate way to tell what the hell is happening in the sizer.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What? All of my Rock Chucker presses will cam over. I still have no idea what bump is.
Anyway, not relevant to the OP's problem. He is sizing TOO much, and yes, setting the shoulder back. Come on over and I'll show anyone how to size cases for a particular rifle.

I know you do not know what bump is but if you had a Rock Chucker that would cam over you would have a bump press. Again, the Rock Chucker does not cam over. There is nothing I can do about it but reloaders have invented a new use of the word 'bump'.

All Of my Herter presses are cam over presses. All of my Herter presses are bump presses. When using a cam over press the reloader has to know how to adjust for cam over. The cam over press bumps twice, once when the ram goes up and again when the ram returns. Anyhow, I have said 'bump is a function of the press, the non cam over press does not bump.

F. Guffey

And here I thought bump in the sense of reloading was a “in” term for reducing by only .001-.003” so for a shoulder bump, you were shortening the distance of the shoulder datum line to the base of the case by .001-.003”. Thus full length resizing with minimizing your working of the brass.

Very imprecise language, but pretty well commonplace use.

As to camming over, my rockchucker (not sure exactly which model) and some of my Dillon equipment do it- not the 1050, but the 550 and 650 do. My PW shotgun press does it. My MEC single stages don’t. The ram is at its maximum height before the handle reaches its final endpoint stop, and if you go to its final rest point, the ram is lower than it was at its maximum height.

Just means you need to know how to set your dies up, and your goals in how you set them up.

OP- it sounds like you resized your cases too much so that it artificially acts like an excessive headspace chamber situation.

Alternately you put the primers in so far that they are too far from the protrusion of the firing pin to reliably ignite, or not far enough and the primer isn’t fully seated.

Excuse my ignorance, F. Guffey, but how do you come to have so many presses?

Ive got another definition of bump all together, but that is for another discussion.

If a "cam over" press causes considerable case sizing variations at the very top of the ram travel, then I don't think I want one. Ill stick with my RC.

I think I know what F. Guffey is getting at.  It kinda mirrors what I typed earlier.  Basic instructions for your die say to insert your case holder, run the ram up, screw the die down till it kisses the case holder, lower the ram and turn the die down another 1/4 turn or so.  This will "cam over".  
Another way is to take a once fired case from your chamber.  Set that in your shell holder and run the ram up, screw the die body down until it just kisses the case.  Take some feeler gages and see what the difference between the case holder and the base of the die body is.  Back the die body out and check with your feeler gages, until you have another .003".  Watch how much of a turn this is.  Mark it with a Sharpie so you can screw it down an equal amount in the reverse direction.  This is now "bumped" back .003". 

Case holders vary all over the world from Bummfuck, Egypt to the South Pole. Can't trust them for precision sizing/ reloading.

Guffey doesn't even know what Guffey is getting at......clueless as usual...

Best advice I can give to anyone learning about hand loading is to disregard any single thing posted by F.Guffey!

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Guffey doesn't even know what Guffey is getting at......clueless as usual...

Best advice I can give to anyone learning about hand loading is to disregard any single thing posted by F.Guffey!

I think he's trying to be helpful but unfortunately seems continually to articulate in incoherent, ambiguous English. My mind is working attempting to decipher his posts when I read them but if I haven't worked it out after trying two or three times it's time to give up and move on.

Many of you guys need serious help in fitting a case to a chamber. I tried....
JTEX is right, and Lawn Chair, be careful; your method won't help the OP,
As for the idiotic and meaningless term, bumping, that will definitely only confuse the OP. Which reloading manual is that from?

The issue of bump is ever so simple if you just remember the old adage that "things go bump in the night" , so if you want bump reload at night, if you don't want bump reload during the day. I thought everyone would have figured that out by now

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Many of you guys need serious help in fitting a case to a chamber. I tried....
JTEX is right, and Lawn Chair, be careful; your method won't help the OP,
As for the idiotic and meaningless term, bumping, that will definitely only confuse the OP. Which reloading manual is that from?

I was just trying to help Guffey save some face. ....


...and as some (most) agree here OP is over sizing his brass. I outline a process that would reduce that oversizing. Don't over exercise your brass. That can make it wear out quicker. I come back 3 thousandths for my match rifles and ammo. Don't try it if you don't want to.

Solid advice from Eagle. From now on out I will reload only during the evening twilight hours; never in the full light or full darkness. And I will continue to make the brass fit the chamber so that it requires a slight feel to close the bolt. I don't need no gauges, shims, measurements, or any other distractions. That is what the OP, and all new reloaders, should do.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
. . . I don't need no gauges, shims, measurements, or any other distractions. That is what the OP, and all new reloaders, should do.

I've purchased all kinds of specialty gadgets and gauges, and they sit quietly in their boxes in a drawer.

I adjust my dies just the way dpcd does.

It works every time I need to set up dies and keeps me from getting side-tracked by irrelevancies.

take a sharpie - color the necks.. adjust dies till there is just a tiny bit left at the shoulder -

What Tom said.....and.....what Tom said.

Here's my headspace gage tooling/setup I came up with many years ago. I add "spacers" as needed for new cartridges.
It's main purpose is to establish a measurement "number".......to compare with a "stripped-bolt feel", as relates to case-to-chamber fitment. The setup works very well for fired case checking, case resizing(even case bumping ), and case forming.
I've another case mic setup, which uses the 243 mic.

Hope this helps.
Kevin

Is this THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM FORUMS?

Say it ain't so!

SAAMI says the case does not have headspace. SAAMI says reloaders get confused, I suggest they learn a new term like clearance.

F. Guffey

Excuse my ignorance, F. Guffey, but how do you come to have so many presses?

quote:

Forgive, I did not see your question, I collect presses. I measure cam over. The most cam over I have found was on an A2 RCBS press, it had .037". The owner had it locked up, he was going to use a pipe, I suggested we use a socket to back the die out.

F. Guffey