quote:

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Originally posted by mike elmer:

One question that does arise concerning business ethics in general is this...as a customer, if I don't like the service or product of a gunsmith, I can always find another that I do prefer. But what of the gunsmith who doesn't like the customer?

Did I just throw my hat into the arena anyway?

Oh well.....an eternal thankyou to P.O. Ackley.

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Pehaps this was the case with Mr. Howell

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

The actual data shows the AI version equaling, not acheiving or just surpassing the stock 280rem velocities. It appeared to me to be a classic case of words not living up to facts. Maybe Nosler just underloaded it?

Other than that I am very pleased to be able to read Ken Howell's posts again. Glad to see you are better sir!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com

At that time I mentioned what a totally-worthless, low-life, fool with zero character it takes to speak bad about dead folks. For some reason, that seemed to upset howl. Can't imagine why! So, I guess it is appropriate that I take the time to repeat it once again.

Having reflected on it for some time, I suspect howl's problem is either pure jealousy, or simply a mental defect due to the in-breeding of a Crack Whore and a Democrat!

When "challenged" about those same rifles in his examples, howl said he did not return them to Ackley so he could correct them. So, I'm doubtful that it ever happened at all.

Speaking ill of the dead - howl you are pitiful!

What makes this SIGNIFICANTLY worse in "my" case, is that for MANY MANY years, I used to think howl knew what he was talking about and actually respected his writing. Just like old PT Barnum, he got me. But, NEVER AGAIN!!!

Pitiful! Pitiful!! Pitiful!!!

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

[This message has been edited by Hot Core (edited 01-15-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by 1894:
Whilst I have no clue about the man himself I would suggest you have a look at the Nosler #4 manual under 280rem and 280AI. Kenny Jarret gives some glowing testimonial on the AI version and I think quotes PO as saying it very nearly acheives 7mm rem mag velocities.

The actual data shows the AI version equaling, not acheiving or just surpassing the stock 280rem velocities. It appeared to me to be a classic case of words not living up to facts. Maybe Nosler just underloaded it?

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If you looked a little closer at the Nosler data I think you will notice that the 280 A. I. data is compiled with a 24" barrel, the 280 Remington data is useing a 26" tube. Besides, the equal velocity is not "across the board", I suspect that one example is right @ maximum pressure levels. Hmmmmmm. --------------- You people that are harping about velocity are suffering from "tunnel vision", and are therefore missing the point! Velocity is not the only benefit of "Ackley Improving" a cartridge. The straighter walls of the case were originally devised to aid in extraction and decrease thrust on the bolt in M99 savages chambered in 250-3000! the slight increase in velocity and INCREASED BRASS LIFE are added benefits. Also, the velocity increases may be slight when loading to the same pressures, but the aforementioned decrease in bolt-thrust would allow safely loading to higher pressures (within reason of course)as long as these pressures did not exceed the limits of the cases. Granted some of the more modern case designs will benefit little from "improving", but that is because the case designs follow some of the "improvements" (less taper in the case walls and sharper shoulder angles) The 40 degree shoulder is hard to achieve without fireforming, or I think we would see it in modern case designs. After all the WSMs have minimal case taper and a 35 degree shoulder angle. That's pretty close to an 'Improved
cartridge from the start!

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 01-15-2002).]

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 01-15-2002).]

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Frank

Never in my wildest imagination would I consider him a great gunsmith..I have seen a number of his guns and I agree with Ken Howell on that score..The fact that this mans guns today sell for very little is proof of that...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

quote:

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Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
If you looked a little closer at the Nosler data I think you will notice that the 280 A. I. data is compiled with a 24" barrel, the 280 Remington data is useing a 26" tube. Besides, the equal velocity is not "across the board", I suspect that one example is right @ maximum pressure levels. Hmmmmmm. --------------- You people that are harping about velocity are suffering from "tunnel vision", and are therefore missing the point! Velocity is not the only benefit of "Ackley Improving" a cartridge. The straighter walls of the case were originally devised to aid in extraction and decrease thrust on the bolt in M99 savages chambered in 250-3000! the slight increase in velocity and INCREASED BRASS LIFE are added benefits. Also, the velocity increases may be slight when loading to the same pressures, but the aforementioned decrease in bolt-thrust would allow safely loading to higher pressures (within reason of course)as long as these pressures did not exceed the limits of the cases. Granted some of the more modern case designs will benefit little from "improving", but that is because the case designs follow some of the "improvements" (less taper in the case walls and sharper shoulder angles) The 40 degree shoulder is hard to achieve without fireforming, or I think we would see it in modern case designs. After all the WSMs have minimal case taper and a 35 degree shoulder angle. That's pretty close to an 'Improved
cartridge from the start!

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Thanks for pointing the barrel length out. I certainly am not a velocity freak - witness the fact I ended up buying a 7x57! But my point was the blurb from Jarret and his quoting of Ackley seemed to major on velocity and accuracy.

I had no way of verifying the accuracy claims but the velocity didn't seem to stack up to the data, granted there is the 2" barrel difference but even so given that 280 isn't a varminter, doesn't appear to suffer extraction or bolt thrust problems it didn't appear to be worth it.

Also re extraction. The shallow shoulder angle and pronounced taper on the 375H&H was to promote extraction, the reduced taper on the AIs is to improve extraction - which is correct?

quote:

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Originally posted by 1894:
.

Also re extraction. The shallow shoulder angle and pronounced taper on the 375H&H was to promote extraction, the reduced taper on the AIs is to improve extraction - which is correct?

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From what I have read, the tapered case was to facilitate the filling of the case with the "spaghetti like" powders of the day (Cordite?) Most of the early "smokeless rounds were thus. 30/40 Krag, 303 British etc.

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

Looking at Ackley's influence on the shooting world, I find it hard not to put a "genius" label on him. Few, if any, alive or dead, have had as much of an influence as he has had on the shooting world in the last 50 years. Not Whelen, Donaldson, nor Narramore; not Hot Core, nor Howell. Perhaps Mike Walker, but not Roy Weatherby.

In my view, P.O. Ackley combined those qualities necessary to contribute to our field: imagination, creativity, the desire and ability to test his theories, the humility to admit when his experiments did not bear him out, and sufficient ego and communication skills to spread his message.

In the scheme of things, it matters little whether he was a master metalsmith, or no. In the end, perfection is not a pre-requisite of genius.

Anyone who has difficulty with that concept should see the movie "A Beautiful Mind". JMO, Dutch.

Seems to me the WSMs, RUMs and SAUMs are all attributable to their efforts.

BUT, like you, I agree that that the "ground breaking" efforts of PO Ackley contribute SIGNIFICANTLY to the cartridges we have today. A legacy that many desire, but few obtain.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

You know, being currently quite infatuated with my 6PPC, I though about including the good Dr. Palmisano. Still, without detracting from his accomplishment, I see it as building on Mike Walker's work with the 222. And, seeing that Gale McMillan's .009" world record group shot with the 222 still stands, I must admit to having an equal bias towards the 222....

As far as Lazzeroni, he "merely" built upon the much more pioneering work of Jim Busha at Heavy Express, Inc, primarily by having more money to throw at it.

Of course, I should wish I could make a mere fraction of any of these gentlemen's contributions...... Dutch.