P.O. Ackley - Was He a Genius or Wannabe?

15 January 2002, 02:50

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by mike elmer:

One question that does arise concerning business ethics in general is this...as a customer, if I don't like the service or product of a gunsmith, I can always find another that I do prefer. But what of the gunsmith who doesn't like the customer?
Did I just throw my hat into the arena anyway?
Oh well.....an eternal thankyou to P.O. Ackley.

Pehaps this was the case with Mr. Howell

------------------
Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

15 January 2002, 04:02

1894

Whilst I have no clue about the man himself I would suggest you have a look at the Nosler #4 manual under 280rem and 280AI. Kenny Jarret gives some glowing testimonial on the AI version and I think quotes PO as saying it very nearly acheives 7mm rem mag velocities.

The actual data shows the AI version equaling, not acheiving or just surpassing the stock 280rem velocities. It appeared to me to be a classic case of words not living up to facts. Maybe Nosler just underloaded it?

15 January 2002, 04:18

<Rusty>

I shoot a wildcat, a .300 Apex. I find Ackley helpful, after all these years.

Other than that I am very pleased to be able to read Ken Howell's posts again. Glad to see you are better sir!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

15 January 2002, 04:19

sdgunslinger

If you actually read P.O. s books , you will find he said himself that improveds like the .270 , .280 ,and 06 were not worth the bother .

15 January 2002, 04:40

Steve Redgwell

He's one of history's "like him or hate him" guys. He wasn't the first to play with cases, but he got people's attention.
He admitted that many of the improved cases didn't live up to his expectations. Who cares! He was the impetus which had everyone trying a 40 degree shoulder and less body taper.
Perhaps he wasn't the best machinist and gunsmith. Perhaps he shouldn't have been trusted at the reloading bench. Regardless, despite being dead for 30 years, he and his designs are still being discussed.
Here in Canada we had a fellow that was doing a lot of the same things - Ellwood Epps.
His designs were based on a 35 degree shoulder,which I believe Ackley's older cases often used. From the 40s to the 60s he and Ackley corresponded, discussing things that gun tinkerers talk about. They were both doing things, which in retrospect, should have been cause for alarm. Welcome to the world of the dreamer!
Has anyone ever died who lived a life complete perfection? Does anyone know someone that qualifies as a living saint? Smile and extract the positives!

Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com

15 January 2002, 08:03

Hot Core

Once again howl takes GREAT DELIGHT in speaking ill of the dead. Very similar to a post howl made concerning PO Ackley a year or so ago on HA.

At that time I mentioned what a totally-worthless, low-life, fool with zero character it takes to speak bad about dead folks. For some reason, that seemed to upset howl. Can't imagine why! So, I guess it is appropriate that I take the time to repeat it once again.

Having reflected on it for some time, I suspect howl's problem is either pure jealousy, or simply a mental defect due to the in-breeding of a Crack Whore and a Democrat!

When "challenged" about those same rifles in his examples, howl said he did not return them to Ackley so he could correct them. So, I'm doubtful that it ever happened at all.

Speaking ill of the dead - howl you are pitiful!

What makes this SIGNIFICANTLY worse in "my" case, is that for MANY MANY years, I used to think howl knew what he was talking about and actually respected his writing. Just like old PT Barnum, he got me. But, NEVER AGAIN!!!

Pitiful! Pitiful!! Pitiful!!!

------------------
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

[This message has been edited by Hot Core (edited 01-15-2002).]

15 January 2002, 10:23

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by 1894:
Whilst I have no clue about the man himself I would suggest you have a look at the Nosler #4 manual under 280rem and 280AI. Kenny Jarret gives some glowing testimonial on the AI version and I think quotes PO as saying it very nearly acheives 7mm rem mag velocities.
The actual data shows the AI version equaling, not acheiving or just surpassing the stock 280rem velocities. It appeared to me to be a classic case of words not living up to facts. Maybe Nosler just underloaded it?

If you looked a little closer at the Nosler data I think you will notice that the 280 A. I. data is compiled with a 24" barrel, the 280 Remington data is useing a 26" tube. Besides, the equal velocity is not "across the board", I suspect that one example is right @ maximum pressure levels. Hmmmmmm. --------------- You people that are harping about velocity are suffering from "tunnel vision", and are therefore missing the point! Velocity is not the only benefit of "Ackley Improving" a cartridge. The straighter walls of the case were originally devised to aid in extraction and decrease thrust on the bolt in M99 savages chambered in 250-3000! the slight increase in velocity and INCREASED BRASS LIFE are added benefits. Also, the velocity increases may be slight when loading to the same pressures, but the aforementioned decrease in bolt-thrust would allow safely loading to higher pressures (within reason of course)as long as these pressures did not exceed the limits of the cases. Granted some of the more modern case designs will benefit little from "improving", but that is because the case designs follow some of the "improvements" (less taper in the case walls and sharper shoulder angles) The 40 degree shoulder is hard to achieve without fireforming, or I think we would see it in modern case designs. After all the WSMs have minimal case taper and a 35 degree shoulder angle. That's pretty close to an 'Improved
cartridge from the start!

------------------
Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 01-15-2002).]

15 January 2002, 11:37

Bill Soverns

Genius...if you want to see a wannabe look at the new line of short mags coming out of the factory.

15 January 2002, 16:30

franke

Thank you,Ken Howell
I am a great fan of P.O.,even though my only Wildcat is a Killborn Hornet.
I have heard some trash talk about the man,but you shared with us,in a straight forward and easy to under stand way,some shortcommings of the man. P.O. himself,would say it the same way.
I only want to mention that the AI of P.O.was only one of the contributions that he gave us. More important then the Wildcats was the EXPERIMENTS that he did and recorded in detail for us.He never accepted a theory,nor did he reject it without proving it. He gave us something solid to build on.
Frank

------------------
Frank

15 January 2002, 17:06

Atkinson

My post and reference to P.O. ackley are contributed to his work and writings on Wildcat cartridges..He set the tone and became world renown based on his good writings.

Never in my wildest imagination would I consider him a great gunsmith..I have seen a number of his guns and I agree with Ken Howell on that score..The fact that this mans guns today sell for very little is proof of that...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

15 January 2002, 23:45

1894

quote:
Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
If you looked a little closer at the Nosler data I think you will notice that the 280 A. I. data is compiled with a 24" barrel, the 280 Remington data is useing a 26" tube. Besides, the equal velocity is not "across the board", I suspect that one example is right @ maximum pressure levels. Hmmmmmm. --------------- You people that are harping about velocity are suffering from "tunnel vision", and are therefore missing the point! Velocity is not the only benefit of "Ackley Improving" a cartridge. The straighter walls of the case were originally devised to aid in extraction and decrease thrust on the bolt in M99 savages chambered in 250-3000! the slight increase in velocity and INCREASED BRASS LIFE are added benefits. Also, the velocity increases may be slight when loading to the same pressures, but the aforementioned decrease in bolt-thrust would allow safely loading to higher pressures (within reason of course)as long as these pressures did not exceed the limits of the cases. Granted some of the more modern case designs will benefit little from "improving", but that is because the case designs follow some of the "improvements" (less taper in the case walls and sharper shoulder angles) The 40 degree shoulder is hard to achieve without fireforming, or I think we would see it in modern case designs. After all the WSMs have minimal case taper and a 35 degree shoulder angle. That's pretty close to an 'Improved
cartridge from the start!

Thanks for pointing the barrel length out. I certainly am not a velocity freak - witness the fact I ended up buying a 7x57! But my point was the blurb from Jarret and his quoting of Ackley seemed to major on velocity and accuracy.

I had no way of verifying the accuracy claims but the velocity didn't seem to stack up to the data, granted there is the 2" barrel difference but even so given that 280 isn't a varminter, doesn't appear to suffer extraction or bolt thrust problems it didn't appear to be worth it.

Also re extraction. The shallow shoulder angle and pronounced taper on the 375H&H was to promote extraction, the reduced taper on the AIs is to improve extraction - which is correct?

16 January 2002, 03:38

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by 1894:
.
Also re extraction. The shallow shoulder angle and pronounced taper on the 375H&H was to promote extraction, the reduced taper on the AIs is to improve extraction - which is correct?

From what I have read, the tapered case was to facilitate the filling of the case with the "spaghetti like" powders of the day (Cordite?) Most of the early "smokeless rounds were thus. 30/40 Krag, 303 British etc.

------------------
Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

16 January 2002, 09:01

Dutch

It seems to me some posters confuse "genius" with "perfection".

Looking at Ackley's influence on the shooting world, I find it hard not to put a "genius" label on him. Few, if any, alive or dead, have had as much of an influence as he has had on the shooting world in the last 50 years. Not Whelen, Donaldson, nor Narramore; not Hot Core, nor Howell. Perhaps Mike Walker, but not Roy Weatherby.

In my view, P.O. Ackley combined those qualities necessary to contribute to our field: imagination, creativity, the desire and ability to test his theories, the humility to admit when his experiments did not bear him out, and sufficient ego and communication skills to spread his message.

In the scheme of things, it matters little whether he was a master metalsmith, or no. In the end, perfection is not a pre-requisite of genius.

Anyone who has difficulty with that concept should see the movie "A Beautiful Mind". JMO, Dutch.

16 January 2002, 12:34

Hot Core

Hey Dutch, For the most part, I agree with your entire post(especially about MY contribution), but I think you may have accidentally overlooked Lou Palmisano & Ferris Pendell's contributions as well as those of John Lazzeroni.

Seems to me the WSMs, RUMs and SAUMs are all attributable to their efforts.

BUT, like you, I agree that that the "ground breaking" efforts of PO Ackley contribute SIGNIFICANTLY to the cartridges we have today. A legacy that many desire, but few obtain.

------------------
Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

16 January 2002, 13:30

Dutch

Hey Hot-Core, glad to see you still have your sense of humor.

You know, being currently quite infatuated with my 6PPC, I though about including the good Dr. Palmisano. Still, without detracting from his accomplishment, I see it as building on Mike Walker's work with the 222. And, seeing that Gale McMillan's .009" world record group shot with the 222 still stands, I must admit to having an equal bias towards the 222....

As far as Lazzeroni, he "merely" built upon the much more pioneering work of Jim Busha at Heavy Express, Inc, primarily by having more money to throw at it.

Of course, I should wish I could make a mere fraction of any of these gentlemen's contributions...... Dutch.

16 January 2002, 15:26

Bill Leeper

I got my copy of Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders when I was 15 years old. Along with it were the pocket manual and ballistics charts. I soon memorized the whole works I think. I didn't agree with everything he said but I sure enjoyed reading it.
As far as his barrels are concerned about all I could say of the examples I saw was that they had rifling! Rough? You bet. On the other hand I jave never made a barrel and likely never will so he was one up on me!
The truth is that like many of the old time gunsmiths and experimenters he was right about some things and wrong about others. I suppose that is true of everyone.
I think that many AI cartridges are a waste of time but that others are pretty neat cartridges. I think that his books are valuable reading for any shooters or reloaders as long as they don't consider them to be a reloading manual. Regards, Bill

16 January 2002, 17:49

<DuaneinND>

I suppose I need to throw my hat into this ring of fire. I never knew P.O. Ackley, but have read his books, chambered rifles in his cartridge designs, and actually still own a couple of them. I think he was a man who wanted to see first hand how somethings worked and how somethings did not. He was also very good at promotion of his ideas. He was very fortunate to live in a time when the shooting public was thirsting for something new and different. Rocky Gibbs had a cartridge line that was "better" but lacked the promotion skills of Ackley- Roy Weatherby's cartidge designs and company has been the most successfull of all.