quote:

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Originally posted by sure-shot:
Well lets hear it. sure-shot

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Some men see things as they are and ask WHY!
Parker O. Ackley dreamed of things that never were and said WHY NOT! Then he did SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!! I vote Genius,Machinist and Craftsman!

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

He's breathed much new life,into many cartridges. I applaud his efforts and thinking..........

Here is what he had to say about the .243 AI

"The Ackley "improved" .243 Wincheser is quite similar to the Mashburn version with little or no preference between the two. The Ackley version was created by popular demand, not with the idea of greatly improving upon the orginal .243 Winchester which itself might be termed an "improved" cartridge. The following loads are a combination of tests made by the author in a 26 inch barrel, and results from tests made at the Hutton Rifle Ranch by Bob Hutton of "Guns and Ammo".

Now that's honest.

Now on this forum every time a member asks a question about an "improved" cartridge the " Anti-Ackley Mafia" comes out in full force!(And you know who you are!)I know everyone has an opinion but how much experience do these naysayers have? One poster even went so far as to falsely quote my custom AI rifle as having a rechamber job and knew the exact pressures(CUP) of my loads!(I only stated fps and bullet weight)

I will say this to the AA Mafia, you obviously do not know the benefits and rewards of a "Ackley Improved" cartridge! If your experiences were less than favorable then you did not build or spec your AI rifle or AI handloads correctly! sure-shot

The best thing about him is his honesty..After all his experiminting he freely admitted in writing that the only real sho nuff improved calibers were the 257 and 7x57 Imp. for the most part, or that is my impression based on his writings. He certainly wasn't a wannabe.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Understand, that some of us see no use for a wildcat, me included, considering the calibers available today from the factories and that came about from the experimenting of such folks as Ackley, Mike Walker, and a lot of bench resters and god bless'em....the best of their endeavors are all factory cartridges now.

I seriously doubt that you can come up with a caliber that cannot be duplicated by a factory round, nor can you invent a wildcat that has not been invented...Many of the wildcats now coming out on the market are based on the 404 and were done by the Germans in the 1920's.

Believe me if wildcatting had any upside left I would be doing it..I did for years and I gained a lot of knowledge and had a lot of fun, but I never kidded myself about their necessity, and that was 40 years ago. It had all been done by then, so I shot the 35 Whelen, 338-06, several of the Gibbs monstrosities and a bunch of others....

Today I see no reason.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I believe that to speak volumes,for the respect he so aptly deserves. He was a Cartridge Cowboy.

You gotta like that.

To add to Ray's comments,I firmly believe P.O.Ackley would have had more "favorites",if he was granted today's powders in his experimentation. His imagination and realizations were short changed,due to powders available to him. Too bad..........

Ackley, not bad, but not near the same class as JMB.

But, you know, his innovative improved cartridges sure makes a lot of sense. As simple as it is to do it, why not pick up the 100-150 FPS. It might just make your cartridge flat enough that you don't miss that far away mulie.

And if it was so simple to do, why was he the one to come up with that 40 degree shoulder?
If not a genius, he was damn good at figuring out the obvious, in more than one area. And that, might be as close to genius as you can get.

Ackley's two volume set "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" is a must have. Fascinating reading. I got mine at Cabela's a few years ago.

Good luck,

R-WEST

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

But Ackley is one of my shooting hero's.

I think he pioneered a hunting bullet that was made like the Swift brand is now. It lacked quality but he had the right idea.

quote:

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Originally posted by R-WEST:
wildcat junkie -

Ackley's two volume set "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders" is a must have.

R-WEST

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Well . . . the books are dated 1962 and 1966. As far as "data" there nothing in them at is current. No data at all for some AI calibers, like .223. The "gunsmithing" data is mostly stuff you can find online.

Mostly they're interesting historically.

They're avaialable at GI Joe's Outdoor Stores (west coast USA), but at $34 the pair, softcover, they're sorta steep.

I don't know about genius; he had a couple of very fine ideas, and put the work into them necessary to establish them as such. As Edison said it's 99% perspiration ( but the 1% inspiration gets it started, and without that you can work all you want and just make a living ).

Tom

Wow.... you bash me for name calling and then write me off as of "cult status". You insulted my earlier posting in the Varmint forum on my 243AI by using the phrase "duh" and accuse me of downloading my 243AI when I never posted the powder or charge! You need to lighten up! And so what experiments of yours have failed?...... A 243AI or 22-250AI?

Sincerely,
Cult leader sure-shot

[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 01-13-2002).]

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LSF/375

[This message has been edited by beemanbeme (edited 01-13-2002).]

Sure Shot, let me use simple facts to answer your challenge above (where you say "I will say this to the AA Mafia, you obviously do not know the benefits and rewards of a "Ackley Improved" cartridge! If your experiences were less than favorable then you did not build or spec your AI rifle or AI handloads correctly!").

FIRST:
In the mid-Fifties, I bought an '03 Springfield sporter that P O had rechambered to .30-06 Ackley Improved. I also got load data from P O. I dropped back 5.0 grains, and the load still expanded primer pockets large enough to let me drop the primer into the expanded pocket, dump it out of the case into my hand, and drop it back into the primer pocket again.
So I've never trusted his load data since that experience.

SECOND:
A friend of mine took his shot-out '06 to P O to have it rebored, rerifled, and rechambered to .35 Whelen. P O asked for five test rounds, which I loaded and provided. P O fired two of those rounds. The barrel fouled so badly that two full days (parts of three days) of hard cleaning by two of us made no discernible progress in reducing (let alone removing) the fouling. The barrel had to be lapped to remove the fouling. After drilling-out the '06 bore, P O had neither reamed nor lapped his drilled hole before cutting the grooves -- so the tops of the lands were fine rasps.
Like everything else I've seen from his shop, the work was simply shoddy.

THIRD:
Three of my friends worked for P O after World War Two, and during that war, P O worked for another of my friends. Some of these men still held him in high regard but acknowledged certain character flaws that kept me from regarding him as highly as his cult does today.

These are not the only reasons -- real, factual reasons, not uninformed or unfounded bias -- that I long ago ceased to be an ardent fan of P O Ackley. (Yes, I once was.)

I rely on my own experience and direct observations, confirmed by the testimony of reliable, honorable men who knew him well, as far more reliable foundations for my opinion than impressions formed by reading P O's writings. (Yes, I've bought all his books, and I used to read all his articles.)

I believe I can say with full confidence that my rifle rechambered by P O and the load data I got from P O were sound foundations for forming some pretty reasonable conclusions about the merits of his work.

Call this "bashing" or "AA Mafia" if you like, but any hysteria involved in this subject comes from somewhere other than here, from someone other than me.

FWIW, BTW, the "Ackley shoulder" was not always 40�. I'm not real sure that P O used a 40� shoulder on more than half his "Ackley Improved" cartridges. Also, P O had nothing whatever to do with many of the wildcat cartridges that bear the NAME "Ackley Improved." A bunch of 'em have come about since he died, and not even the most ardent worshiper of P O Ackley should believe that his long-departed spirit yet retains the knack of introducing wildcat designs to the present day. ;o)

As I stated Ackley is a hero of mine. Soon I will find out that Joe DiMaggio went to bed with a sexy actress.

I have to find that poem by I think Shelly. It contains the line on friendship. "To keep a friend you must keep the grain and blow the chafe away" This is a reference to milling grain.

[This message has been edited by Don Martin29 (edited 01-14-2002).]

In the sense of your opening sentence, try this old familiar quotation on for fit: "Don't confuse me with facts -- my mind's made up."

Perhaps this is a misunderstanding on both of our parts but I will not try to answer your question one more time. If you failed to comprehend my answer the first time on the Varmint forum then why should I post it here? I feel I have only failed in answering your question in a way that you may comprehend and I won't make any apology for that, that's your problem. My answer to your question was posted on the varmint forum under 243 or 22-250 a few days ago.

Ken Howell,

Thanks for the info. If die sales are any indicator of a cartridge's success then you have to admit the AI designs are still popular today. There is still alot of interest in the improved case concept whether or not Mr Ackley founded it. FWIW, we have far more powders today to take advantage of the improved case design, yesterday's negative findings on improving a case are no longer valid today.

Sincerely yours,
Ackley cult leader,
sure-shot

[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 01-14-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 01-14-2002).]

Please put more effort into reading comprehension. I said that I "did not enjoy" your diatribe. Not that my mind is made up on the subject or that I ever indicated that it might be. In fact I said "however true it may or may not be"

So if your intent was that of a iconoclast then I hope your all done.

I was interested by a comment by Mr. Atkinson, stating that wildcatting is not needed as the factories make everything. This is probably true, above .224 bore diameter. Below it, you have the 17 Rem. That's all. I think the future of wildcatting is in these small bores. 20, 19, 17, 14. And there is a lot of exciting stuff going on down there.

And it is kinda cool to own a round that is a wildcat, just to be different.

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Safety & Ethics,Accuracy, Velocity, Energy
Joe M

Bye
Jacl

I explained why "diatribe" doesn't fit.

"Iconoclast" doesn't apply, either -- I haven't been out to attack or to overthrow any traditional or popular idea or institution, and I'm certainly not out to destroy any sacred religious image (literal meanings of "iconoclast") -- although this thread is full of further evidence that many modern shooters consider P O to be both an institution and a sacred image. I just added facts that I happen to know, to the one-sided basket of impressions already posted in answer to the invitation that opened this thread -- also in answer to a challenge and charge in an earlier post.

Harsh words and intolerant charges don't alter the facts. I have no trouble according P O his due, but so many others have overdone that here, without any balancing fact, that I avoided adding to the worshipful adoration when I tried to provide a little factual balance and perspective.

Too bad the worshipers can't see ol' P O as a less than perfect man, certainly less than an icon. He was neither a god nor a saint, nor was he a complete ass or scoundrel. He contributed much, but both his resources and his abilities were limited by the times -- so much of what he pioneered has been found, under later scrutiny, to be flawed, some of it seriously. This should neither be ignored nor taken as condemnation of the man for his limitations. Neither P O nor his contributions should be held to be immune from the light of intelligent, responsible scrutiny.

It's safer these days to bash Jesus!

quote:

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Originally posted by JoeM:
...stating that wildcatting is not needed as the factories make everything...

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Maybe true, but if follow that logic, we probably don't need 90% of the factory rounds either. Wildcatting is not "needed", but for some guys it's fun. Some guys choose to say they don't need to wildcat, but their "factory" round is so obscure that ammo needs to be special ordered...

Using that limited view, I hope to avoid the personal slings and arrows that I have witnessed in this thread, share MY experience with reloading, shooting, and hunting, quote P.O. Ackley when appropriate as a source, and allow others who post to have their opinions and experiences, while not trying to fix everyone who posts.

One question that does arise concerning business ethics in general is this...as a customer, if I don't like the service or product of a gunsmith, I can always find another that I do prefer. But what of the gunsmith who doesn't like the customer?

Did I just throw my hat into the arena anyway?

Oh well.....an eternal thankyou to P.O. Ackley.

quote:

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Posted by Bubba John:
Wildcat! What an exciting word.Just makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Thanks, Mr. Ackley, where-ever you are.

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How right you are. Just imagine the popularity of the practice if the term "Cute Little Kitty" had caught on.

Martindog