Posted on the varmint forum also..

I have been playing around a little with some 22.250 loads. I use a charge of 33 grains of IMR 4064 or 4895 in my fast twist 22.250 with 68 thru 80 grain bullets...

I had some AA 4064 that I have had for a while, so I tried some of it since it is more user friendly for 22 caliber necks than is IMR's...

Well I have to say, with a variety of bullet weights from 50 to 55 grains, I am very pleasantly surprised... even with cheap bulk bullets, I am getting 100 meter groups out of my Ruger VT about half the size of a dime to the size of say a dime...

another side benefit, is that it is generating low enough pressure, that I don't even have to neck size it to reseat a new bullet, for several shots...

I haven't taken the time to chronograph it.. estimating the MV at about 3400 fps or so..

I also don't have the ability to show some target samples since I let Seafire JR take my camera to Philmont Boy Scout Camp down in New Mexico...he'll be back on the 9th of July..

I have kept some samples so I will post them then...I have had fun turning in some small 200 and 300 meter groups also...

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
I haven't taken the time to chronograph it.. estimating the MV at about 3400 fps or so..

How long does it take to set up your chrono? Hell, I can set up my whole Oehler 43PBL including acoustic target in 8 minutes. I wouldn't waste my time and components without firing over skyscreens.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
I haven't taken the time to chronograph it.. estimating the MV at about 3400 fps or so..

How long does it take to set up your chrono? Hell, I can set up my whole Oehler 43PBL including acoustic target in 8 minutes. I wouldn't waste my time and components without firing over skyscreens.

Dave, it's just a matter of understanding. If John shoots his three shots at 25yds. and than runs the target out to 200 meters and leaves it setting up the chronograph for just three shots takes as much time as that 200 meter jaunt.Than he'd have to take it down and put it away ,spending more time risking discovery. Follow?? roger

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
I haven't taken the time to chronograph it.. estimating the MV at about 3400 fps or so..

How long does it take to set up your chrono? Hell, I can set up my whole Oehler 43PBL including acoustic target in 8 minutes. I wouldn't waste my time and components without firing over skyscreens.

Well 3 cheers for you! I am not YOU and YOU are not Me...

So I got pretty decent results on a load and share it with the forum...

Then I get someone complain that I didn't take the time to chronograph it for them also..

So would you like to me to purchase the components, drop by your house and load you up some also, right after I chronograph them for you also there?

Well if you don't like the fact that someone posts a load and didn't chronograph it for ya, why don't you complain to management and ask them to refund your dues for AR here?

There is one in every bushel..

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

Well I have to say, with a variety of bullet weights from 50 to 55 grains, I am very pleasantly surprised... even with cheap bulk bullets, I am getting 100 meter groups out of my Ruger VT about half the size of a dime to the size of say a dime...

another side benefit, is that it is generating low enough pressure, that I don't even have to neck size it to reseat a new bullet, for several shots...

That sounds pretty good. I may have to try that. I've been getting the same sized groups with my 9" twist .22-250 LRPV using 33.9g of IMR4320, WLR primer, with 55g Hornady V-MAX bullets set 0.20" off the lands. Basically a small cloverleaf @ an average MV of 3540 fps (ES of 20 fps). This same load shoots 5/8" 200 yard groups. I haven't tried it farther than that ... yet. It isn't anything like a maximum load, but it groups the best of anything I've shot so far. In fact it shoots well enogh that I've declared a moritorium on 55g load development for the .22-250. I decided I'd save the barrel for matches and shooting ground hogs.

I am still working on a 75g A-max load, though I think I'm close using H4350.

Fitch

Fitch,

I have a faster twist 22.250, with an aftermarket barrel that has a one in 7 twist..

however, after testing 15 different powders in it with 68 to 80 grain bullets, hands down the best accuracy/velocity combo was from mid range powders, like 4064, 4895, RL 15, W 748, 4320...

33.3 grains seem to be a sweet spot in my Ruger with the fast twist, of any of the above powders.. but 4064 was the best followed by 4895( IMR).. Varget did a good job also..

MV is in the 3300 to 3350 fps range..

Hey Seafire, don't blow a gasket! I only asked WHY you didn't see fit to chrono these loads.

I've been reloading for my 22-250 since '75. My loads have been proven fast and accurate for decades. I don't need to work up loads for the newest bullets or gunpowder.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Hey Seafire, don't blow a gasket! I only asked WHY you didn't see fit to chrono these loads.

I've been reloading for my 22-250 since '75. My loads have been proven fast and accurate for decades. I don't need to work up loads for the newest bullets or gunpowder.

okay, fair question...

because I didn't have it in the car with me at the range..

I'll humbly submit you could have asked the question with a little less condescending tone..

evidently you and I differ on some of the reasons why we handload...

I actually like to experiment quite a bit on the reload bench, with a lot of different components.. I enjoy adding flexibility to a round and firearm...

I have as much fun handloading as I do shooting, if not more...

in this case, I have found a load using the same charge that I use with my fast twist barrel and 75 & 80 grain bullets, also allows me to use 55 and 60 grain bullets ( V maxes and Ballistic Tips also).. can be just as accurate...

that more user friendly AA 4064, is as accurate,( if not even a little moreso) than IMR 4064...
especially since this rifle has a worn bore...

so I shared the find, with anyone in general that would be interested in as such..

if I 'jumped the gun".. then I submit my apology..

if no malice was intended then it is I who owe the apology...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
...if no malice was intended then it is I who owe the apology...

No, you got the original tone correct.

funz thinks having a Haphazard SGS, makes him somehow a Superior Reloader. When in reality it indicates he doesn't understand how they work. Fine by me that he wasted the money to screw-up his firearms with Strain Gauges.

Anyone who thinks you can't guesstimate - the Velocity to as "useful a number" as a totally worthless, non-calibrated, guessed at dimension, Haphazerdly mounted strain gauge fiasco - is only fooling themselves.

A non-calibrated, guessed at dimension, Haphazerdly mounted strain gauge fiasco = Reloaders Pyrite(aka Fools Gold).

quote:

posted by funz:
I wouldn't waste my time and components without firing over skyscreens.

It must be real comical watching him try to get all set up to take a shot at Game before it runs off.

Seafire2

The tone was a little condescending but Onefunzr2 explained himself and the outcome is fine. I've used chronographs since the mid '70s and don't chronograph every load either. Sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally.

Hot Core doesn't seem to get it that most of us really could care less of his opinions on chronographs or PBLs. I've both and they work fine and give much more information that Hot Core thinks. His insinuations on what others think are only his own assumptions. He still fails to realise that the use of a chronograph or PBL isn't what makes one a "superior reloader". It is the information and knowledge gained form those instruments that additionally makes one a better reloader. I'm sure he will follow this post with his usuall diatribe as that is his style.

Anyways it appears onefunzr2 was just seeking additional information. I two would like to know what the velocities of your loads are to compare them with my own 22-250s.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
...It is the information and knowledge gained form those instruments that additionally makes one a better reloader. ...

I must admit that using a non-calibrated system, with guessed at dimensions, and Haphazerdly mounted strain gauges would obviously make anyone "a better reloader".

A non-calibrated, guessed at dimension, Haphazerdly mounted strain gauge fiasco = Reloaders Pyrite(aka Fools Gold).

Hot Core

You are so predictable.....you've used that line of predictable diatribe so many times now. Seems like you learn something new or at least that nobody cares for your assumptions. But then you don't believe in chronographs or pressure reading equipment so what is to be expected from you. So boring......

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
...I'm sure he will follow this post with his usuall diatribe as that is his style...

Forgot to mention , I've never had anyone who controlls this site tell me to quit posting any of my first-hand experience. I really don't understand how "lying larry"(as shown in a previous thread) thinks he has the ability to silence anyone. He is as delusional about his abilities in that regard as his ability to gain anything useful from a non-calibrated, guessed at dimension, Haphazerdly mounted strain gauge fiasco.

Dr. Oehler mentioned the M43 is intended for "a Lab environment" and for those of you who beileve they can be used "properly" outside of a lab Environment, feel free to quote me on -

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Hot Core

You are so predictable.....you've used that line of predictable diatribe so many times now. Seems like you learn something new or at least that nobody cares for your assumptions. But then you don't believe in chronographs or pressure reading equipment so what is to be expected from you. So boring......

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Sounds like you and HotSh?t aren't friends anymore!!!!

The ignore button is wonderful and one day he'll find out that nobody cares what he thinks. At the least it is truly amazing, for a while to listen to the pontificating that he produces with the sincere intent of sharing his opinions. I've notice from the comments of others, that they too have learn to take a pass on everything he says. He seems to have a few favorite topics that get the focus of his meager comments. Don't let him get to you - - remember the ignore button.

TEANCUM

Hot Core doesn't "get to me". Quite to the the contrary I find him amusing. Now he has started with personal attacks and out of context misquotes of Dr. Oehler. This is also part of his usual diatribe of meager comments. While I do find him amusing he is still boring.....

Larry Gibson

I see we complete the Trifecta with teanscum, a perfectly matched set.

For those of you who are fortunate enough to have missed all of teanscum's posts, here is one that shows what he believes is the proper Cartridge and Bullet to use on Mule Deer.

"""ANYBODY""" out there agree with teanscum's v-a-s-t Hunting Wisdom???
-----

Yo Lying Larry, It is only "name calling" if it isn't true.

As luck would have it , I happen to have a link to the thread where larry proves himself to be "lying larry". It is a long thread and warrior and larry end up looking like the exact people we all know them to be.

Sure wouldn't want any of the new folks to think I make this stuff up.

HotCore, I thought you were an old salt, but sometimes you act like a 13 year old. Are you easing into a second childhood? We've all heard your relentless blather for quite some time. Move on. You're not changing anyone's mind. You'll never change MY mind, so don't get a blister on your typing finger trying.

I didn't mean for Seafire to think he owed me range load data for his 22-250 Rem. I was just curious WHY a guy who experiments so much would not be gathering as much data about his loads as possible. So it all boiled down to not having the chrono along, is all. Shit happens.

I pack my chrono\PBL every time I go to the range, a private club with many more spigot members than rifle\pistol range users. Other than the pre-buck season flurry of sight ins, the ranges are pretty much vacant every time I go there, and I've been a member for 30 years. I'm only downrange about 8 minutes to set up the equipment, especially the acoustic target. After that I never have to go downrange except to gather up the gear and go home to download the data into this desktop computer from the battery-powered laptop.

They're my guns and if I want to glue a strain gauge over the chamber, I'm allowed. I don't do it to every rifle or shotgun I own. I get enjoyment from using Dr. Oehler's gadgets. And I have never regretted spending the money to buy them. Perhaps that's HotCore's problem; he's either too poor or too cheap to buy the new-fangled external ballistics electronics gear. Folks like him, obviously like living in the past. Fine with me. Just don't try forcing it down my gullet!!! And if you think we're laughing with you...wrong...we're actually laughing at you.

You're not on 'ignore' yet because you do have other thoughts and ideas that I agree with.

Sounds like Hotsh?t is pontificating again but thanks to that ignore button, all is well.

Actually it's sad to watch the decline that has ocurred in the old boy. I understand that it's hard when nobody cares what you think and nobody cares what you think, Hotsh?t

I'm really interested in the experience of the board members that post here and don't usually asked for opinions. People like Saed and Seafire2 that post stuff on what their experiments have turned up are facinating stuff for all of us and thanks to you guys for your efforts. It's great to hear from other posters that share experiences of what worked and didn't work for them and then we have the option to use that experience or blow it off.
Most of us doen't seem to care if you accept our experiences but others are easing into their second childhood.

Oh well, thanks to the ignore button I haven't heard from Hot Sh?t.

TEANCUM

Well Hot Core's continual reference to me as a "liar" demonstrates his continual lack of integretty and as mentioned he acts like a teenager who has been caught in the lie. Should anyone care to go read the threads Hot Core lists they will find that Dr. Oehler is indeed misquoted and misrepresented by Hot Core. Dr. Oehlers last response is quite succinct in his disproval of Hot Core and his ideas;

"Hot Core has expressed displeasure that there is no "After Installation" calibration of the strain gage system. To the best of my knowledge, this is true for ALL methods of chamber pressure measurement. I challenge anyone to provide a clean calibration procedure for any measure of chamber pressure in a rifle. It's much easier to throw stones and cast doubts that it is to prove truth without possible exception."

However, I really don't need to demonstrate my veracity here as Hot Core has failed to demonstrate it (he usually fails to demonstrate or actually prove anything). He really is quite boring though I did find it quite interesting re-reading the threads he lists. One can actually see where he quotes a lot and uses a lot of technical verbage. The quotes and verbage aree easily found via Google. What is severely lacking in all of Hot Core's posts is any substance. How drole on his part.....

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
TEANCUM

Well Hot Core's continual reference to me as a "liar" demonstrates his continual lack of integretty and as mentioned he acts like a teenager who has been caught in the lie. Should anyone care to go read the threads Hot Core lists they will find that Dr. Oehler is indeed misquoted and misrepresented by Hot Core. Dr. Oehlers last response is quite succinct in his disproval of Hot Core and his ideas;

"Hot Core has expressed displeasure that there is no "After Installation" calibration of the strain gage system. To the best of my knowledge, this is true for ALL methods of chamber pressure measurement. I challenge anyone to provide a clean calibration procedure for any measure of chamber pressure in a rifle. It's much easier to throw stones and cast doubts that it is to prove truth without possible exception."

However, I really don't need to demonstrate my veracity here as Hot Core has failed to demonstrate it (he usually fails to demonstrate or actually prove anything). He really is quite boring though I did find it quite interesting re-reading the threads he lists. One can actually see where he quotes a lot and uses a lot of technical verbage. The quotes and verbage aree easily found via Google. What is severely lacking in all of Hot Core's posts is any substance. How drole on his part.....

Larry Gibson

Larry

I agree with you and don't spend my time reading what Hotsh?t writes. There are so many guys on this board that have a treasure trove of experience in the things that they have done that it makes this site valuable to me. It's the EXPERIENCE not the opinions that are valuable to most of us. I would have never ever thought about Blue Dot in the ways that Seafire2 uses it and to me that adds value. Ray Atkinson provides a lifetime of experience in the things that he has done and accomplished. I don't know if I would always approach things the same way he does but he provides it from his wealth of experience and we decide what to do with it. I like to listen to the experiences of others to gain further light and knowledge and then decide if it fits into my program.

I'm a low handicap golfer and when I get on the course there are guys out there you are ever willing to give you their opinions on what you are doing wrong. The wise thing is to listen first and then watch them play and then decide to file it away or delete the whole thing.

Keep the experiences coming, while realizing that we may not agree nor accept your experience but they are great to hear about.

Hey Dave, I need to first say this is the very first post from you I've ever read that didn't have the "tone" expressesed in your initial post. On the other hand, perhaps you used it a lot and those posts with some actual Logic in them ended up with me agreeing. Now you have me second guessing and that is bad at my age.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
HotCore, I thought you were an old salt, but sometimes you act like a 13 year old. Are you easing into a second childhood?

May be I am. I did recently buy a toy that young folks 1/3 my age have asked me, "How did you get out without getting totally wet? I can't!!!" And I'm cutting FREE from people that only talk about "negative" things on the phone. (I get plenty of that ignorance here from people like lying larry and teanscum. )

quote:

We've all heard your relentless blather for quite some time. Move on.

Good, glad to hear "my" first-hand experience is getting good play. One thing I do is I really try not to tell other people "what to do" unless they ask. Unrequested advice is only interesting if it is from someone a person respects.

quote:

You're not changing anyone's mind.

Actually my PMs and emails would (to say it nicely as I always do) prove that to be an incorrect assumption on your part.

quote:

I was just curious WHY a guy who experiments so much would not be gathering as much data about his loads as possible. So it all boiled down to not having the chrono along, is all.

I know Seafire wastes a lot of time with a chronograph. But, as I saw in his post, he knows he can "guesstimate" the velocity. As for me, I used to TOTALLY WASTE a lot of my time chronographing Loads - guesstimating is just as useful. Any of the Beginners and Rookies that want that expanded, feel free to PM me, so I don't offend Dave and lying larry by posting it again.

quote:

Shit happens.

Here is some "unrequested advice for you" - your vulgarity is unnecessary, shows you are verbally impared and has the potential to get you tossed off the Board. As much as I disagree with you thinking a M43 makes you a Superior Reloader, I'd rather you not get tossed.

quote:

I pack my chrono\PBL every time I go to the range, ... ... I'm only downrange about 8 minutes to set up the equipment, especially the acoustic target. After that I never have to go downrange except to gather up the gear and go home to download the data into this desktop computer from the battery-powered laptop.

They're my guns and if I want to glue a strain gauge over the chamber, I'm allowed. I don't do it to every rifle or shotgun I own. I get enjoyment from using Dr. Oehler's gadgets. And I have never regretted spending the money to buy them.

Good for you. I agree you should use your time as you see fit. And if makes you happy totally screwing-up some of your firearms hanging Haphazard SGs on them, I support "you" doing just that.

However, I would strongly encourage anyone to completely understand what they are getting with a Haphazard Strain Gauge System fiasco, prior to their tossing $2K-$3K out the window.

quote:

Perhaps that's HotCore's problem; he's either too poor or too cheap to buy the new-fangled external ballistics electronics gear. Folks like him, obviously like living in the past. Fine with me.

Had to work for everything I have. And due to some good investments, I was able to quit working at 45. Not bragging - just facts. Were you able to "quit working" at 45???

quote:

Just don't try forcing it down my gullet!!!

I see the delusion that lying larry has about being able to tell people what they can or can not post has aflicted your mind as well.

Alright now, which one of you is responsible for FORCING Dave to read my posts???

quote:

And if you think we're laughing with you...wrong...we're actually laughing at you.

Glad to hear I can bring some smiles to your day.

quote:

You're not on 'ignore' yet because you do have other thoughts and ideas that I agree with.

I always encourage folks to do whatever they want in that regard.
-----

I still think it must be quite a fiasco watching you set up the Haphazard SGS for a shot at Game.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
..."Hot Core has expressed displeasure that there is no "After Installation" calibration of the strain gage system. To the best of my knowledge, this is true for ALL methods of chamber pressure measurement. I challenge anyone to provide a clean calibration procedure for any measure of chamber pressure in a rifle. It's much easier to throw stones and cast doubts that it is to prove truth without possible exception."...

Same as it has ALWAYS BEEN, the factories use SAAMI Approved Reference Ammunition(Calibration Ammo) to regulate their Pressure Measuring Systems. In fact, the link I posted above where lying larry is proved to be a lier, is where we went over all of this once before.

For those of you who think from lying larry's post that Dr. Oehler is unaware of SAAMI Approved Reference Ammunition(Calibration Ammo), I'd encourage you to "ask Dr. Oehler". Or call one of the Manufacturing Facilities that I listed the (800) numbers to in the "lying larry link" and ask them.

One thing is for sure, you do not have to believe me, you can prove it to yourself by making a few FREE Calls, or believe lying larry.
-----

I do love it when a Lier(aka lying larry) continues in his Lying Mode and gets caught.

Just looked back at the thread where teanscum claims he will be using a 223Rem and a 40gr bullet at a "claimed" 3900+fps on Mulies.

Apparently the number of people who agree with his v-a-s-t Hunting Knowledge is - Ta Daa - ZERO!!! Not even lying larry jumped in to support his closest personal, almost blood-brother, buddy!
-----

And if ANYONE somehow gets the impression that is laughing at teanscum's posted IGNORANCE, then you would be 100% correct.

"...[/QUOTE]Same as it has ALWAYS BEEN, the factories use SAAMI Approved Reference Ammunition(Calibration Ammo) to regulate their Pressure Measuring Systems. In fact, the link I posted above where lying larry is proved to be a lier, is where we went over all of this once before.

For those of you who think from lying larry's post that Dr. Oehler is unaware of SAAMI Approved Reference Ammunition(Calibration Ammo), I'd encourage you to "ask Dr. Oehler". Or call one of the Manufacturing Facilities that I listed the (800) numbers to in the "lying larry link" and ask them.

One thing is for sure, you do not have to believe me, you can prove it to yourself by making a few FREE Calls, or believe lying larry.
-----

I do love it when a Lier(aka lying larry) continues in his Lying Mode and gets caught. [/QUOTE]

Hot Core

Roll on the floor all you want but it is you who is the liar here and stupid enough to make statements like that. In the threads you tell every one to read is Dr. Oehlers actual answer;

"quote from Hot Core:
... the entire System is Calibrated with SAAMI Calibration Ammunition(which has a Known Pressure and allows for a proper Pressure Adjustment or Fudge Factor.

Dr. Oehler's resonse;

"Here's where we probably part company. I know of no "SAAMI Calibration Ammunition" which has a know pressure. Such wonderful ammo just doesn't exist. I suspect that you are referring to SAAMI Reference Ammunition. This reference ammo is not intended for pressure calibration, but it's primary application is the determination of the "average" test barrel. Use of reference ammo by SAAMI goes back to the days of copper crushers when the actual calibration of the crushers was the construction of a "tarage table" showing apparent static pressure versus deformed length of samples from that specific lot of copper crushers. The reference ammo is simply a large lot of ordinary ammo that is well behaved and stable. Samples of the ammo are distributed to those SAAMI members who produce ammo of that caliber, and each member is responsible for the calibration of their own transducers (using static hydraulic pressure in a adapter fixture for the transducer and unfired cases from the sample lot of ammo). The ammo is tested at each SAAMI site, the data is analyzed, and the resulting average of the averages becomes the "assessed value" of that particular lot of ammo. In subsequent pressure testing at the individual labs, it is proper procedure to fire a sample of the reference ammo in a barrel to determine the "barrel correction" to be applied to convert the readings from that particular barrel to what might be expected from the mythical "average" SAAMI barrel. This whole procedure establishes two "fudge factors" for the conformal transducer, a slope of the electrical output versus static input pressure and an "offset" pressure related to the pressure contained within the case before it presses against the transducer. Note that each of these two fudge factors are valid only for the particular lot of brass used duing the calibration. The third fudge factor is determined by firing samples of the reference ammo in the test barrel to correct to the "average" barrel. The proper use of the "reference ammo" requires that all instrumentation be "SAAMI standard" and that all SAAMI test procedures be followed.

There is absolutely no guarantee that the reference ammo will generate the "assessed" pressure in any firing. The pressure may vary significantly depending on the barrel in which it is fired. Just having chamber and barrel dimensions within SAAMI specifications does not guarantee pressures equal to the assessed values. Take an extreme example of firing a round of .308 Win in a .270 barrel; do you really expect to see the assessed pressure?

My description is abbreviated and may not be clear; the process is laborious and complex. There is room for much uncertainty and error in the many steps. That's why I expect accuracy in the 2% to 8% range.

Why all the discussion about reference ammo? It is simply that I regard reference ammo as being inadequate for the calibration of any pressure measurement system, strain gage or otherwise. Reference ammo is useful for establishing the relationship between an individual test barrel, made to SAAMI specs, and the "average" SAAMI barrel. That's its intended purpose in life.

How do we properly calibrate a strain gage system? In my opinion, it is adequate to pay attention the the mounting location of the strain gage and make reasonably accurate measurments of the inside and outside diameters at this point. Properties of the individual strain gages (gage factor) are provided by the gage manufacturer with each lot of gages. The modulus of elasticity of modern barrel steel varies little between barrels with a relatively constant 3% difference between stainless and chrome-moly barrels. This difference can be accounted for in the test procedure. So used, I'd opine that the accuracy of the Model 43 probably falls in the middle of the 3% to 8% range. There's room in this band for a few small errors and approximations. It's hard to measure accuracy if nobody knows truth. We've seen such agreement in many tests over the years with special barrels fitted to measure pressure of the same shots with two or more methods on each shot."

Thus every one can plainly see it is you who are lying, taking Dr Oehler out of context and generally continuing to be the idiot you appear to be. The reference ammunition is just that, a "reference". It is not used to calibrate. We have been all over this before. You came out as offensive and ignorant then as you are now. Everyone see's that except you.

As to my "blood brother; what's to say? I've killed elk and deer with the .223. In some areas it is quite legal to do so. Deer are not really all that hard to kill. I've also gotten 3900 fps out of a 26" .223 with a 40 gr bullet. I used your CHE method and an old original lot of H414 (the new stuff won't do it). I wouldn't shoot those loads these days as the primer pockets wouldn't hold the primer on the next reloading. Your CHE showed no over pressure......hmmm something to be said there. I guess you'll come up with some sort of "reference ammo" that is used to calibrate the killing of deer now. That seems to be your droll style.

And BTW; if your going to use the name you've given me, please at least spell it correctly. It's Liar not "Lier".

Larry Gibson

My apologies for starting this thread...

I am sorry that it has been used as a basis for those that I consider online friends here, to start an argument which has declined into a name calling match and pissing contest....

That was not my intention in starting this thread.. it was intended just to share information that I thought was informative..

I consider folks on both sides of this argument here as friends and will continue to do so... but I apologize it degraded down into what it has become...

respectfully to all...
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
funz thinks having a Haphazard SGS, makes him somehow a Superior Reloader. When in reality it indicates he doesn't understand how they work. Fine by me that he wasted the money to screw-up his firearms with Strain Gauges.

As always, HotCore started it. He always chimes in on other people's threads spouting nonsense.

He retired at age 45 (did you get shot like Larry Flint?) so he could devote himself to this one trick pony. How sad.

Trying to explain things to a moron is not what I really want to do.

quote:

Originally posted by lying larry in quoting the amiable and correct Hot Core:
"...Same as it has ALWAYS BEEN, the factories use SAAMI Approved Reference Ammunition(Calibration Ammo) to regulate their Pressure Measuring Systems. In fact, the link I posted above where lying larry is proved to be a lier, is where we went over all of this once before.

For those of you who think from lying larry's post that Dr. Oehler is unaware of SAAMI Approved Reference Ammunition(Calibration Ammo), I'd encourage you to "ask Dr. Oehler". Or call one of the Manufacturing Facilities that I listed the (800) numbers to in the "lying larry link" and ask them.

One thing is for sure, you do not have to believe me, you can prove it to yourself by making a few FREE Calls, or believe lying larry.
-----

I do love it when a Lier(aka lying larry) continues in his Lying Mode and gets caught.

quote:

... the entire System is Calibrated with SAAMI Calibration Ammunition(which has a Known Pressure and allows for a proper Pressure Adjustment or Fudge Factor.

My goodness, those are a True Statements. Oh yes, "I" said that.

quote:

Dr. Oehler's resonse;blah, blah, blah, ...it is proper procedure to fire a sample of the reference ammo in a barrel to determine the "barrel correction" to be applied to convert the readings from that particular barrel to what might be expected from the mythical "average" SAAMI barrel.

I realize this above the ability of the "lier" (aka lying larry) to understand, but once the Correction Factor is known in reference to the Calibration Ammo(SAAMI Reference Ammo) then the entire System is in fact Calibrated. This allows the user to know how far away from the "Standard" the System is and he can therefore load ammunition that will meet SAAMI Specifications.

NOTE: Reference page 55 in the Speer Manual #12 for information on the Correction Factor.

For example:
(I'm sure lying larry will not understand this at all), but for those of you who have the ability to understand, here is how it actually works(and you can verify it on one of the Toll FREE Numbers I listed). SAAMI Reference Ammunition(aka Calibration Ammo) that Dr. Oehler mentioned above is shipped to any of the Bullet/Powder/Ammo Manufacturing Facilities. And it should include an Average Lot Variance of say something like +or- 3kpsi. The Manufacturers fire a quantity of it in their Test Equipment(Crusher, Peizo, Strain Gauge , whatever they are using) and it indicates that Equipment is only reading 50kpsi when it should actually be reading 62kpsi.

Here is where lying larry is clueless. The Factory documents the now known Correction Factor for that System as +12kpsi and records it in the Operation Manual along with all the Codes and Numbers associated with the Calibration Ammo(aka SAAMI Reference Ammo).

Let's say the Factory now fires a few Test Load Cartridges in that same Test System and gets an average of 45kpsi(with a low Variance) for that load. They look in the Operation Manual and note the Correction Factor is +12kpsi. So they know that Lot of Test Ammo is actually 57kpsi.

Consideration is given to the Variance of the Test Lot as well as the Calibration Ammo(aka SAAMI Reference Ammo) before production begins.

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Likewise, the Correction Factor for that System could have been -9kpsi. And the Factory shoots a Test Load which Averages 68kpsi. Once the adjustmant to the System is made using the Correction Factor for that System as -9kpsi, they know the Test Ammo was in reality 59kpsi.

Without Calibrating the entire System with a """known""" Reference the System is TOTALLY WORTHLESS.
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quote:

And as normal, lying larry has quoted himself as knowing Nothing about what Dr. Oehler said and meant when he included:

There is absolutely no guarantee that the reference ammo will generate the "assessed" pressure in any firing. The pressure may vary significantly depending on the barrel in which it is fired. Just having chamber and barrel dimensions within SAAMI specifications does not guarantee pressures equal to the assessed values.

Absolutely and makes the Game Winning Point. There is almost no chance at all the Calibration Ammo(aka SAAMI Reference Ammo) will read the same in the Factory System as it did at SAAMI - thus the Correction Factor being necessary to make SAFE and in Specification Ammo.
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quote:

Dr. Oehler:
That's why I expect accuracy in the 2% to 8% range.

This was in Reference to his Haphazard SGS. I did ask him more about those numbers which can be found in this link.

quote:

Dr. Oehler:

"How do we properly calibrate a strain gage system? In my opinion, it is adequate to pay attention the the mounting location of the strain gage and make reasonably accurate measurments of the inside and outside diameters at this point. Properties of the individual strain gages (gage factor) are provided by the gage manufacturer with each lot of gages. The modulus of elasticity of modern barrel steel varies little between barrels with a relatively constant 3% difference between stainless and chrome-moly barrels. This difference can be accounted for in the test procedure.

I can't remember if I responded to this or not. Doubt I did, as I was trying to avoid a direct disagreement with Dr. Oehler.

However, though it is a nice Sales Pitch for a totally worthless HSGS, no one in the Industry that I know would believe that, nor would they accept it.
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quote:

From lying larry:
I've killed elk and deer with the .223.

It is amazing anyone would do such a completely moronic thing and admit to it. lying larry has just achieved a new "low" from my perspective. I really can't believe it.

quote:

lying larry:
Your CHE showed no over pressure......hmmm something to be said there.

It does not surprise me at all that lying larry is unable to read numbers properly.
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Well folks, that is my last post to this thread. If anyone out there needs clarity in what I've posted, and if you have a higher IQ than a rock(which lying larry obviously doesn't), just send me a PM or an email.

Trying to explain things to a moron is not what I really want to do.
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Hey Seafire, I "NEVER" appoligize for anything I do. However, I will make an exception and appologize to you for trying to converse with them.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Fine by me that he wasted the money to screw-up his firearms with Strain Gauges.

.. a totally worthless, non-calibrated, guessed at dimension, Haphazerdly mounted strain gauge fiasco - is only fooling themselves.

A non-calibrated, guessed at dimension, Haphazerdly mounted strain gauge fiasco = Reloaders Pyrite(aka Fools Gold).

Link to the reaction to my post on this subject

I don't want to get Seafire [hunting buddy], Hot Core [fellow engineer and Denton lampooner], and Saeed [site owner] mad at me all at the same time, but I have to mention that the accuracy traceability of strain gauges on rifles is in question, and even if it were good, the usefulness is in question.

With the limiting factor brass it right there for observation, I have to say about strain gauges in rifles, "The emperor has no clothes!"

Larry

What are you doing? Don't you know that trying to explain anything to Hotsh?t is a big waste of time? Time that could be better spent taking a dump, in fact taking a dump and trying to tell Hotsh?t he is wrong have a lot of common factors.

Oh well, remember Headshooters unite!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
Larry

What are you doing? Don't you know that trying to explain anything to Hotsh?t is a big waste of time? Time that could be better spent taking a dump, in fact taking a dump and trying to tell Hotsh?t he is wrong have a lot of common factors.

Oh well, remember Headshooters unite!!!!!!!!

You're right, what the heck am I doing! Hot Core can't understand the difference between "reference" and "calibration". So much for his engineering wizardry. Strain guage measurement isn't in question, except for a couple here so I'll just continue to measure and understand. I'd think that with all of Hot Cores' self professed education and engineering background he would understand the incorrectness of his statement;

"Let's say the Factory now fires a few Test Load Cartridges in that same Test System and gets an average of 45kpsi(with a low Variance) for that load. They look in the Operation Manual and note the Correction Factor is +12kpsi. So they know that Lot of Test Ammo is actually 57kpsi."

I'd think he would be smart enough from and engineer's background to know that the "correction Factor" is not a constant +12K psi. The 12K psi is a proportional correction to the example of the 50K psi reading. Thus the correction should actually be a percentage; in this example the measured pressure should be corrected by a factor of 1.24. The corrected pressure would be 55,800 psi instead of the 45K + 12K which is 57K psi as in Hot Core's example. Only 1.2K psi difference but with some cartridges or at some levels of pressure that can be significant. To simplify if we measure the pressure of a .38 WC load at 15K using Hot Core's example are we to simply add the 12K PSI and be "calibrated"? No we would not be. This summery is for your information not Hot Core's. He is a lost cause. What we see is his failing to understand simple engineering principles , calculations and using a "reference" instead of "calibration". Had we "calibrated" the instrument using the "reference ammo" then the instrument would be giving a correct measurement of psi. The instrument is not "calibrated because a "reference" is used. A engineer would know that. I'm not an engineer I'm a "moron" and I know it.

I will continue to pass information when ever I can to everyone here who want to have a more complete knowledge and understanding of what is occuring with their rifles and loads. The other 2 or 3 along with Hot Core can believe what they will. My oh my but Hot Core has really reached his zenith with the name calling. Speaks highly of his intelligence and integrity.

Larry Gibson

roger