I have been reloading for the 7x57mm for 24 or so years and have come to respect this cartridge tremendously. I started out reading about it in old gun rags and in 1982, bought my first one, a Ruger tang model. Factory loads were rather tame to say the least and the reason why, as per gub scribes, was because of all the old Model 93 and Model 95 Mausers still in use out there. As result, pressure was kept at 45,000 to 46,000 psi. Then came the tng safety Model 77 and later a Mark II, both of which are infinately stronger than the 93 or 97. Now, I own a CZ 550 American in 7x57mm. I handload for this one with Remington Cases, Federal 210 Primers, Hornady 162 grain SST bullets and 48.3 grains of H414 powder. This combo gives me excellent three shot accuracy, many times less than half inch, and 10 or so case reload case life. The rifle has a very long throat. In fact, COL runs 3.30 inches with the SSTS when the ogive is .01 inch off the lands.When living in New Mexico I choronographed this load at 2,815 fps. My problem is this, sometimes while posting on these forums experienced handloaders tell me I am shooting way too hot. Because of the old 93s and 95s still out there, are Remington and Winchester cases maunfactured to only be handloaded to the 45,000 ot 46,000 psi range? Does some of the balastics programs use, in part, data developed with thr 45,000 to 46,000 psi, consequently, any charge, such as mine even in a modern rifle with new cases and components, will be deemed Hot? Thanks for your time. Tom Purdom

quote:

This combo gives me excellent three shot accuracy, many times less than half inch, and 10 or so case reload case life

Then just keep loading them that way for your rifle~~~~~

Here's the deal.....most handloaders (like me) are guessing about the pressures they reload to. I'd love to load ammo to 65,000 PSI and stop there...

However I'm guessing based on case appearance and bolt lift issues and many other criteria such as primer pocket expansion to give me hints about the pressures I'm generating. What may be fine with the brass I'm using and in my rifle may in fact be too much for others....

If you have a modern strong action and you are getting that many reloads you may in fact be loading to 70,000 PSI.....but it's fine for your gun and brass!

My estimates are that your load is about 65,000 PSI and your brass is fine with that.....Keep on a loading.....you're doing fine.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vapodog:
Then just keep loading them that way for your rifle~~~~~

VD! I like your analogy but can't help wondering why anyone wants to push the pressure envelope as much as they do.

P times V is the whole thing here. Forget about stretching the pressure and go for the volume; .284, .280, 7 X 61, etc.

Truth as I know it is that the 7 X 57 loaded to 50,000 psi in the hands of someone who really knows what hunting is about is a very capable cartridge for any game in the lower 48 and than some.My supper is ready--must go. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Truth as I know it is that the 7 X 57 loaded to 50,000 psi in the hands of someone who really knows what hunting is about is a very capable cartridge for any game in the lower 48 and than some.My supper is ready--must go. roger

I don't disagree at all my friend.......but please tell me......how do you know when you're at 50,000 PSI?

I can tell when I've reached "max".....and then back off a couple grains......but how do I know when I've reached 50,000?

7x57

I have for thousands of rounds loaded them about like yours for a long throated Ruger. With my pressure trace, they show 64000 psi. There is no reason a load like that isn't safe, and I have proven it by using them for years and I shoot and hunt with the 7x57's more than any rifle I own. You do have to be cautious, I had a M70 FW years ago, normally throated and the loads were 2875 fps in it with 140's were 2675 in my long throated Ruger. Obviously you wouldn't want to shoot the Ruger loads in it! The real factor is throat length. A 7x57 with the bullet seated way out has as much effective case volume as a normally throated .280 and can be loaded accordingly. It is not a cartridge for a casual handloader to work with, but is one of the best and has been my favorite for years.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
.......but please tell me......how do you know when you're at 50,000 PSI??

Just publiished data and assume that it is a close average. I too push the envelope from time to time to arrive at limits but not with the intent to squeeze the most out of it I can for an every day working load. roger

I guess it is just the nature of the beast. Perhaps it is why we drive cars 35mph to work that are capable of going 120mph. While I don't agree that we can't reasonably tell working pressures in our rifles, the question begs to be asked, "What does motoring your rifle at 65,000psi get you that 50,000psi won't? Other than the same giggly feeling you get from going 50mph in a 35mph zone?"
Curious minds would like to know?

I have loaded all my good strong Mausers with H414 but I use a considerably higher powder chagre in my guns than the one you mention..I have also reloaded my hotter cases some 7 or 8 times without any problems...H414 is the powder for the 7x57, but the books underload considerably....

I do several things to my 7x57s..I use a 06 length box, I have my barrels cut with a long throat so that I can seat a 175 gr. Hornadys to a seating depth of .284..that gives me a lot more powder space and my 7x57 will shoot with the standard .280. and beat some factory 7 mag loadings which are pretty weak btw.

quote:

...and 10 or so case reload case life. ...

If it was me, I would consider that a good Safe Load. Since the Case is the weak link in the Firing Cycle, if the Primer Pockets are still "snug" after 10 reloads, I'd be happy.

quote:

Originally posted by jstevens:
... With my pressure trace, they show 64000 psi. ...

I don't understand how using a non-calibrated, guessed at dimension, fudge factored, haphazard(Dr. Oehler's choice of wording) strain gauge fiasco(my choice of wording) should be quoted as being accurate to a single psi. If it had been quoted as 64kpsi +or- 8kpsi it sure would have been a lot more in line with reality.

Someone sent me a link to a thread on another Board a month or so ago where a well respected Gun Rag Writer had claimed seeing 12K variance with a HSGS and no one doubted or challenged his post. It was interesting to see Dr. Oehler post in that same thread later on without comment on the 12K variance.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

Hot Core

If it is 12000 psi off, it is still closer than guessing, reading primers, trying to measure case heads in various spots. I also remember a long-ago quote in an article that Jack O'Connor made about some of his loads being too hot. His statement was if they chambered and ejected fine in 100 degree weather, cases lasted seven or eight loadings before the primers became loose, he didn't care if the pressure was 50000 psi or 80000 psi, it was safe to use. That is pretty hard to argue with today in a practical sense. Try one of the strain gage systems, with an open mind, and compared to factory ammo, and use a chrono too. You'll find it is a useful tool, not the perfect pressure testing equipment, but not far off either. I would also be very surprised to see one that the measurements were done correctly that was 12000 psi off, that is a high percentage of 60000- 20%. My feeling in general is that they are probably within 5000 psi in general, probably closer if compared with a factory load and with a velocity comparison. After all, what else do we have to measure pressure in our own rifles?

quote:

Originally posted by jstevens:
... I would also be very surprised to see one that the measurements were done correctly that was 12000 psi off, ...

I do agree with this portion of your post. It was strange that no one questioned his post at all. Perhaps they were simply laughing behind his back or perhaps they believed him.

For whatever the reason, the folks on "that Board" are very reluctant to disagree with ANYTHING posted by one of the Rag writers, regardless of how totally incorrect and wrong it is.

I almost avoid posting on any of these that have to do with pressure. They always get nasty, mostly by ones who have never used the various methods. I believe in using all the methods in combination. You are right, a lot of people will not contradict the writers, even though you and I may fire twice as many rounds in a year as any of them. They are still only another shooter, often with less experience than I have.

/

quote:

Now, I own a CZ 550 American in 7x57mm. I handload for this one with Remington Cases, Federal 210 Primers, Hornady 162 grain SST bullets and 48.3 grains of H414 powder. This combo gives me excellent three shot accuracy, many times less than half inch, and 10 or so case reload case life. The rifle has a very long throat. In fact, COL runs 3.30 inches with the SSTS when the ogive is .01 inch off the lands.When living in New Mexico I choronographed this load at 2,815 fps. My problem is this, sometimes while posting on these forums experienced handloaders tell me I am shooting way too hot.

Frankly, based on my experiences with the 7X57mm round in a Mannlicher-Schoenauer, two Rugers, (No.1A & M77 Tang-safety, and a Venezuelan FN M1924 (M98-type), all of which have long throats, I do not believe your load is too hot!! The fact that you can get ten loadings out of a batch of cases tells us that your load is reasonable FOR THE GUN YOU ARE SHOOTING IT IN..........

U.S. 7X57mm brass is up to pressures as high as those used in the 6mm Remington, and other rounds based on the 7X57mm...... I have never had any problems with Norma cases in 7X57 either, but cannot speak to other European brands-however, the 7X57mm factory loads in Europe are NOT wimpy!!

/

you gotta be careful with this one.
it is like the 44mag brass vs the 45 colt brass
but do you think they make the steel softer
for the 7x57 recievers vs the other long actions?

Well since most of us don't have pressure testing equipment, we have to make do with what we do have and that is to be on the aware of extractor marks, flat primers, sticky bolts, and the more astute will mic their case heads and keep it to .0005 to .0007..They will also be aware of how many trims and how often and how many times the case is loaded before it fatigues..That is the best that us poor bastards can hope for, the rest is

I'm with Ray on this one!!!!! If it's not broken.....don't fix it and this is how good reloaders have been doing it for a generation at least!

I am not in the business of loading ammo for anyone else. What I do know is that these loads are safe in my guns, I probably shoot 200 of them a month, and they've been to Africa, Wyoming and most in between. The WSM's are loaded at the factory to 65000, so there must be a safe load for a 7x57 in there somewhere. I started loading ammo when I was 13, I am now 51, and have blown exactly ONE primer. I don't think that qualifies me as a hotrodder, as I shoot every week of every year. I am quite cautious with my loads, they have been well proven, so I guess you can list me with Ray.

quote:

This is a very interesting topic:

If I may ask a question to those who propose 60,000 psi plus loads for the 7mm Mauser in their own rifles:

I think the point of this whole thread is based on the three words, "Their OWN rifles."

I have three rifles chambered to the 7x57 Mauser. A Ruger #1A, a Winchester M70 push feed Featherweight and a J.C. Higgins FN mauser that was once a .270 Win. but is now a 7x57.
The Higgins is restricted to Winchester 145 gr. factory ammo, not because the gun will not handle hotter loads, but it just shoots so well with those that it's what I use in it. besides, the recoil is mild enough in that rifle that my wife tends to hijack it when she hunts with me.
However, considering the strength of the two remaining rifles, I see no earthly reason why they should not be fed hotter ammunition. If a Winchester M70 or a Ruger #1 in any configuration can handle rounds like the .300 Win. Mag. for example, why can't the also be able to handle the 7x57 round loaded to the same pressures? The back thrust, or bolt thrust if you prefer is much greater than the back thrust/bolt thrust of a 7x57, even if both were loaded to the same pressure.
methinks that if you were to tir up one of the technician that do the load work up for the manuals and waterboarded him, you'd probably fine out that they have loads in those higher pressure ranges for rounds like the 7x57, .257 Bob., and the 30-06 for their own personal use. I'm sure that data is probably more highly classified than the Manhatten Project was during it's time. After all, one must not have 7x57 ammo loaded to the point that it would be serious competition to the 7-08. Therefore, we're left to be on our own. After all, the manuals give three levels of data for the 45-70, and load levels for Colt single actions in .45 vs Ruger .45 caliber revolvers, so why not decent load data for modern 7x57s and 30-06s?
I'm not trying to stirp up any pot here, but just asking what I feel is a legitimate question.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by jstevens:
I almost avoid posting on any of these that have to do with pressure. They always get nasty, mostly by ones who have never used the various methods. ...

I seem to remember a few threads going sideways myself. And it sure looks like you hit it square on the Nose.

Great old cartridge. I seem to remember Mrs. Eleanor O'Conner used one and had great success with it.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

People: thank you one and all for your time and thoughts on this question. It has been on my mind for quite a while. I now have an answer. Tom Purdom

It is my favorite all-round hunting cartridge. I could certainly hunt big game the rest of my life with a 7x57 and a .375 H&H and probably never give up a shot I could take with another caliber. They are that good. My preference would be to have three and make it 7x57,.338 WM and .416. There is no reason to load a .270 to 60000 psi and a 7x57 in a modern action to 45000 psi.

Well I don't know if you loads are to hot or not, since you still have all your fingers and eyes. I been loading a shooting a 7 x 57 since 1970 or so. And back then I settled on 50 gr of IMR-4350 and a 140 gr Nosler Partition. Move foward to 2008 and I still shoot the same load for the most part in the 7 x 57, It just touches 2800 fps and well the game just seem to fall down when hit. And I been shooting the same old Steyr Mannlicer Mod M Pro since 1976, best 425 dollars I ever spent.

I know the 7x57mm works well for me and at 62 years old tomorrow, we are both old coots. I well remember an elk hunt when I shot a bull, a large 5 x5 at a lasered 324+change so I say 325 yards. He was broadside, just standing there across this small canyon. At the shot he hunched slightly, walked back a step or two, sat on his butt and fell over. The bullet was the 160 gr partition. I had, and have, every trust in my rifle and the caliber and my shooting and my load, so it all melds into a symphony of confidence. Over the years the caliber and rifles have brought me so many neat memories. Another came up when a farmer in Missouri gave me and a hunting buddy permission to hunt a monster open field just off a major highway. The permission came long before the season began. As times would have it, the farmer began to lease hunting rights on his property and our hunting area kept getting smaller and smaller. In the end, my buddy was stuck on the side of a pond and I was in an old abandoned house about 285 yards from the nearest treeline. The farmer was not going to go back on his word, but he sure ended up giving us some crappy spots, or so he thought. By morning's end my buddy had ab 8-pointer abd ibe doe on the ground. I shot a monster old buck sneaking along the treeline abd filled out with a doe. We had deer all over the back of the pickup truck, all gutted, when the farmer rolled up, open-mouthed. We both filled out and he invited us to leave his land and not bother coming back next year. Once again, thanks all and especially thank you Ray, for turning me on to H414. At the time I was living in Grants, New Mexico. Good times to all. Tom Purdom

George

You just proved my point on loading the 7x57 perfectly. I have loaded this cartridge a lot since the 70's and my old standard load was 51.5 grains of 4350 with a 139 grain Hornady and this went 2875 in my Winchester featherweight which wasn't a long throated chamber. 20 years later I bought two more 7x57's which were pretty much identical in throat length, and fired a few rounds of my old ammo with 4350 and the 139's. Not one round hit 2700 fps, the average was 2675 fps, and pressure was obviously low. I sure wouldn't want to shoot the loads I use now in my old M70, would be an accident looking for a place to happen. That is why I consider a 7x57 a poor choice of a rifle for a casual rifleman, but a dedicated and careful hanloader with an attention to detail can really make it perform. I would guess I have put 10000 rounds through various 7x57's and have about twenty pages of loading data for loads I've experimented with over 30 years or so.

7x57

Where did you kill your Mo. buck? I also like the 160 NP for bigger game, have shot a lot of stuff up to elk-kudu size with it, pretty much one shot and it's time for the knife.

Ray, thats .0005 to .0007. I just load till I see ANY marking on the face of the case and back off 1 grain of powder. This might be barely dissernable to the eye. I ended up with 48.0 grains of H414 under 150-160 grain bullets. Very accurate and cases just last a long time usually biting the dust when the necks crack. I suspect I am getting around 2700 fps from my 19 inch barrel and this seems to be a very deadly combination for deer and feral hogs. I don't feel I am pushing it and will continue to load this way as I have never had a problem doing so.

JStevens: The location was a monster winterwheat field on the east side of U.S. 54 Highway about three miles before crossing I-70. I first saw him in the mist right at the treeline going toward his bedding area which must have been near the highway, or even across it on the other side. The edge of that field was loaded with tracks and there were words of a 180 class buck hanging and the general area. This old boy was just old, a huge bodied buck. About 8 a.m. I heard two shots. My hunting buddy, AJ, filled his deer tags in seconds as the buck and doe came to the pond to finish off a morning meal. He gutted and loaded his deer in the back of his pickup truck and drove straight to my stand, the abandoned house in the middle of that field. It blocked all wind from me, had an old kitchen chair to sit in and the kitchen window sill was perfect rest. I told AJ about the big boy earlier and he asked me if the deer walking east along the treeline about 285 yards off was him. The old boy would walk a few feet, test the air, and walk some more just on this side of the treeline. I never figured out why the deer trail wasn't on the other side, inside the treeline rather than in the open on my side of the treeline. At the shot he droppeed and out popped a second deer from a finger of bush about 20 feet from the buck. I shot a second time, filling out my tags. Both were oneshot kills, both instantenous. Both were measured at 285 yards. The farmer's clients were not getting any shots at all the blinds he had them at, so I can understand him bing pissed off. The area around Centralia also has some astounding bucks. Missouri is one heck of a state. Then, hunting it with a classic like the 7x57mm makes it all that much better. Have a good one ... Tom Purdom

quote:

If you were loading commercially or if you were in the business of producing a load manual for commercial use would you still advocate that these loads were "safe" and secondly:

I would NEVER recommend that anyone use the loads that work for me in my rifles in theirs without working them up from below to be sure they are safe. But when a person has done this with their rifle, and they are getting as many as ten loadings in a batch of cases before they start wearing out, I regard that load as being acceptable in that rifle.

As a matter of fact, with the 7X57mm loads that I use these days, my cases become unserviceable due to cracked necks, not loose primer pockets. If these loads are not safe, NONE ARE!! And this applies to ANY caliber, not just the 7X57mm.....

quote:

And if this were "safe practice" why do American gun makers like Ruger who build modern rifles very clearly advocate both in print and in some cases even in print on the guns, that only ammo loaded to a set standard and in their case likely SAAMI or CIP standard be used in their guns ?

In addition, use of factory-loaded ammo is no guarantee, either. I have seen loose primer pockets resulting from the first shot with factory-loaded ammo in certain calibers, including some of the new short magnums.

In the early 1980's when my two sons were in their early teens, we decided that the best cartridge for Deer hunting was the 7x57. So, we all got one and started loading for them. We only used H-414 powder as it gave the best accuracy. We all had Mauser 98 based rifles, and 140 grain bullets were what we all used. Our best accuracy in all three rifles came with 48.0 grains of 414 with the 140 grain bullets. 49.0 grains started to flatten primers, so we all settled on the 48.0 grain load.
Since we never worked with heavier bullets, I have no knowledge of what a 48 grain load will do with 162 grain bullet.

Don

7x57

Running your data in Quick Load produces the following results:
Col 3.30
162grs Hornady SST interbond
48.3grs Hodgdon H414
2786fps
Max. Pressure 60381 PSI

SAAMI Max. for 7x57 is 51000psi (Piezo)
Save load acc. To QL is 45.4grs of H414 for 50359psi and 2632fps

Try Norma MRP 52.3grs gives you 2721fps at 48760 PSI according to QL

I strongly recommend buy Quick Load, for me it is the most useful piece of reloading equipment I ever spend money on.

Yes and the 7x57 is a very good cartridge I got 4 myself

Cheers

No surprise here. Educated guesses on pressure with the old fashioned methods, a Quick Load estimate, and a pressure trace pretty much come up with the same thing I did 30 years ago. A 160 at 2800 in a long throated 7x57 is a warm, but safe load. I have also seen factory ammo too hot, a guy I work with bought a 7WSM in a Savage, thought something wasn't just right when 3 out of the first five shots blew primers.

Tom Purdom,

(To steal your line, I think), have a happy birthday, if you feel so inclined!

My old [1970s ?] Norma reloading info shows 160 gr bullet with Norma 203 at 2707 fps at 50,000 psi. That's all you need !! The 160 has high sectional density and ballistic coefficient for long range.

Well I do have a M43 Oehler and have taken many a pressure reading as of late with several different catrtridges, including the 7x57. Hot Core in his own misguided hate for anything other than his own CHE/PRE method talks of "non-calibrated" (there is nos such thing a "calibration ammuntiiton - thought I'd mention it before he goes off on that tangent again) yet the strain guages are calibrated as is the M43 against a know figure. That is the same with chronographs. Since there are many different ways of measuring chamber pressure who is to say which is absolutely correct? Any actual measurement is certainly better than CHE/PRE. (I know you didn't mention it Hot Core but you would have).

As to the 12,000 psi variation, that is quite extreme and would be indicative of a bad load. Mostpressure I measure are +/- 3-4,000 psi. One might list a pressure as minimum, peak (maximum) or average jsut to let the reader know I agree with Hot Core who is actually agreeing with Dr. Oehler).

Actually measuring pressure is enlightening to say the least. However not having the equipment most will have to rely on published loads or work up loads looking for indicators as Ray Atkinson mentioned.

As to 7x57s load, drive on as it appears to be quite safe in your rifle. That's what most of us do is load a cartridge to a safe level in our rifle or to meet a safe specification for our rifle. Either way it appears 7x57 has a good load for his rifle.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
...Hot Core who is actually agreeing with Dr. Oehler...

Yes, after a nice "civil" discussion, Dr. Oehler and I do agree on about 99.9% of Pressure Testing.

Especially the part where he mentioned the M43 is designed for a Lab Environment. I realize that specific wording won't mean much to folks unfamiliar with it, and to explain it would only create angst for those who wasted money on one.
-----

10 reloads while still having snug Primer Pockets is a Load where Pressure is not something to be concerned about. Just that simple and no need to waste time or money on "Haphazard"(in 100% agreement with Dr. Oehler's choice of that specific word) Strain Gauges.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Especially the part where he mentioned the M43 is designed for a Lab Environment. I realize that specific wording won't mean much to folks unfamiliar with it, and to explain it would only create angst for those who wasted money on one.
-----

Why Hot Core, I denote a tone of jelousy! Actually what Dr. Oehler says is the M43 was designed for use in a laboratory but is well used at a range, the laboratory is not necessary. Dr. Oehler also says; it is is how the M43 is used, not where it is used. But you fail to mention the context of what the good Doctor says, your usual tactics and BS. Nice try but no cigar. You should really get a M43, you might learn something.

Larry Gibson

For those of you who are curious about what Dr. Oehler actually said without a lot of Spin Doctering by someone who wasted a bunch of money on device which can't be Calibrated, uses Guessed-At Dimensions and Fudge Factors - the Haphazard Strain Gauge System Fiasco - there is the link.
-----

Who was the guy who said, "A fool and his money is soon parted."??? Perhaps a guy who knew someone who bought a HSGS.

/

Hence my question (and point) earlier about proof testing every single firearm, which I believe was performed in England.
Peter.