Ladies and Gentlemen:

In your experience have you seen greatly reduced or non-existent blood trails when using calibers of 6.5 mm or less on big game?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I have not shot very many deer with bullets less than 6.5 but the ones I have shot with the 6.5 usually DRT or go down within visual range the few short blood trails I have observed have been more than enough for tracking.That was with common old Hornady 129gr and 140gr bullets as well.

I've never had a problem with 243 through 6.5 calibers on deer providing.... To tough a bullet isnt used. I know the new way of thinking is premium bullets for everything. But the truth is, a regular hunting bullet through the lungs has always had a more then adequate bloodtrail, the very short distance to a dead deer. Even if it doesnt exit, they bleed from the nose/mouth in short order. I've had barnes X's drill through on broadside shots and the bloodtrail was pin drops of blood.

I haven't shot very many deer but the only blood trail I have ever had was by a 6 mm rem. My 06 or 300 wm didn't leave a trail.

Rad

I generally shoot moderate-velocity 6.5mm cartridges with heavy-for-caliber projectiles, and the majority of the time, I get an exit. Most animals drop on the spot, but when they don't, generous (though usually short!) blood trails are the norm, including on hogs.

On deer no, on moose no, on wild boar oohh yes, due to a thick skinn a layer of lard and lots of muscles they tend to cover all small holes,

For thin skinned deer there is no worries a hit in the old pumphouse and there will be blood all ower.

Best regards Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Ladies and Gentlemen:

In your experience have you seen greatly reduced or non-existent blood trails when using calibers of 6.5 mm or less on big game?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Any deer I've ever shot with a .30-06 or a .243 either wet down immediately or in a few short steps.....like less than 40 yards and the blood trail seems to not be related to the caliber used.....it seems to be related to WHERE the animal was hit.

Once you have enough gun (and the smaller calibers such as the .243, .257 Roberts, 6.5 X 55 etc are totally enough gun) it's simply a matter of placement. More gun does not equate to more game......and as a matter of fact I'd say the opposite

Vapodog, how much driven hunts do you attend and shot at?

Points of reference might differ, in Sweden the 6,5x55 is the minumum for all deer larger than roe deer.

We do a lot of driven hunts here and the preference are 8x57 and larger bores, I use a 9,3x74R or x 62 most hunters go for 30-06 or 338 Win and it likes.


Best regards Chris

I've killed four deer with heavy .223 loads out of an AR15. Zero blood trail. Luckily they all died very quickly, but if I'd have had to track them it could have gotten ugly.

in my limited exp (16 years) I have used 222 and 223. there was one that took a round to the chest and I had a shot presented to the base of the skull that I took but it wan't required (heart was infact hit fataly). All others dropped at the shot, neck, head, and high lung/spine shot. Deer shot with a 300 RUM dropped at the shot if high shoulder was hit, if low then I have had to follow (2) for 40-50 yards. Most of the deer are 100lbs or less though it is the rare beast that hits 200 in the hill country. All of my hunting is spining them from a stand or truck. I have not done any driven hunts, if I did, I would probably take my 30-30 or 470 NE with cast loads as both of those rifles point true and are lighter than the bean field rifles.

I think the discussion, at lease for me, changes between 243 and 6.5. I have had occaision to not have a good trail with a 243, but never had a bad blood trail with a 6.5. In fact, the largest exit would I ever had was with a 6.5x55 and 140 Partitions. Exit was 1# coffee can size.

Like was stated above, I have never had a deer hit with any of my 6.5s in any configuration take more than a step or two. I can not say the same for my '06 or 308.

The longest trail I've had to make after shooting deer with a 6.5 is 6 paces, it was easy.

only bad time was with a 257 AI with barnes t-shock two deer ran away never to be found.other than that no problems

Though non-existant Blood Trails can happen with nearly any Cartridge due to the innards shifting around, the problem is significantly higher as the Holes get smaller and the Energy Transfer is reduced.

I'm sure no one ever Hunted with me using anything smaller than a 243Win. Quite often the Deer would drop in it's tracks, but I had to spend a lot of time locating Deer that had managed to run off aways. When you can not see 4' due to dense brush, briers, weeds and tossing upset Rattlers and Copper Heads in the mix, having a Blood Trail created by Holes going both In and Out is a serious advantage if Tracking is needed.

I disagree with people thinking it is "all about shot placement", because there is more to it than that. Plenty of Heart shot Game can run 200-300yds. If it's in the open or on disked fields, that is fine. But, if you have the above described swamps/woods or 4' tall Beans in the field, you still have the potential for lost Game.

Can't speak for the 6.5s of anytype because I don't remember anyone using one of them.

Bigger calibers Kill better than small.
Faster Kills better than slow.
Big and Fast Kills the best of all.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:
Vapodog, how much driven hunts do you attend and shot at?

Where I hunt in Wisconsin just about all the deer I've ever shot was driven and they were mostly running. You learn to shoot deer running or the freezer sits empty the year around unless you buy meat for it. Using heavy for caliber bullets (and I'm trending to shoot all bonded bullets) helps with an exit hole and that helps with a blood trail.

I've never found the .30-06 to kill better than the .243 and as stated earlier the smaller calibers seem to me to be the better choice.

Possibly because the smaller calibers are used for coyote and fox hunting the year around and the owners get more practice.....but any hunter shooting a correctly aimed .243 will have venison in the freezer.

Hot Cores comment about larger is better and shot placement isn't important don't match my experience at all.

I fully agree that taking the pump out doesn't amount to DRT.....it never does and a blood trail is a big help especially when there is no snow. That said, it makes no difference what caliber does it.....it does help to have a exit hole and I've had several cases of no exit holes with the .270 and the .30-06 and the .308 winchester as well.

While there are many variables influencing a reliable blood trail, bullet diameter is surely the easiest to control. In my experience, a relieable blood trail starts at about .35 caliber.

I would agree with VapoDog as well as HotCore .

Some people are far better shots with lessor caliber weapons on moving targets than others say with Medium or big Bores , as they tend to shoot those smaller calibers more frequently .Thus are better shots !.

One can't deny sometimes even with the best possible shot placement the animal doesn't aways go down on the spot .

My personal feeling on that subject is to often improper bullet selection may be the cause !. Or simply not enough BC to a particular caliber for the job at hand .

Don't remember what gun writer said this but it Rang true with ME !.

Bring enough gun to the party so as to not be sorry for showing up !!.

I know several people who hunt Deer in what ever state use .222 .223 .22-250 ? . What ever . So if it works for you Great , but not for me .

I use a 6.5 or 7mm or the 7mmRem Mag .Some use .243 .270 or .308 30/06 7mm0/8 all seem to work just fine .

I don't chase deer after I shoot one !. I carry at least two different if not three loadings for the Rem mag 140 ,160 ,175 Sierra and or Noslers .
They're not paper punchers either !.

I scope know my target , then squeeze the trigger . Bang !!. Accuracy penetration expansion weight retention results Dead Animal !. All the while re chambering another round out of habit which I hope to never break !!!.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Dr K wrote:

quote:

I don't chase deer after I shoot one !. I carry at least two different if not three loadings for the Rem mag 140 ,160 ,175 Sierra and or Noslers .

So do all of these share the same POI? Carrying multiple versions of ammo on a hunt for a single species is a recipe for disaster.

But that's just my .02.

I've shot many mule deer with 22-250 and 50 grainers around 3850 fps along with 243 pushing a 55 grainer at 4050 fps.

No "innard shifting" just "Innard Blasting". All of those have hit the ground and almost bounced with no movement. No need to follow a blood trail as you can watch the mortality. Ranges have been from a lazered 345 yards down to about 40 yards all with the same result.

When you stop and think about it these rifles are varmint rifles and set up to hit small targets at long distances out here in the West. When you can hit targets, rockchuck heads peaking around rocks at 250 to 375 yards away, shooting a deer in the vitals, off a good rest almost seems like cheating.

This fall it will be a .223 shooting 40 grainers at 3925 fps for the mulies.

I can attest that a .243 pushing a 55 grain BT at 4,000+'/sec wll drop bambi in her tracks given she's sticking her ears up and looking at you.

300 yards don't cut shit when you have a good gun, good rest, and a head shot like that.

Pushing a bullet thru to get a blood trailisn't necessarily the best objective. IMHO. A large energy release in the vitals does seem to get the job done right now.

However that technique can be taken to far also.A fast moving bullet that does not penetrate does nothing but severly injure the animal and make fallow up a hard, long and some times unrewarding task.

I've had bad experieces with the 22-250, 6mm x .270 IMP., and the 25-06IMP. because the bullets disintegrated with minimum penetration. All the shots were well placed
The results folks claim using ,say, a 22-250 and 50 some grain bullets is probably true but I'm here to tell you just any bullet in that class at that speed ain't going to get it done consistantly and the wounded animal is the result.
The buck with the biggest spread of mine,had a perfectly placed shot from a 25-06 IMP.from about 75 yds. It took at least 6 hrs to find him and he was laying there still kickin; literately.
My thinking, now, is that deep penatration with massive internal tissue damage, every time, by design ( proper caliber and bullet) is the answer. If your selection of design allows enough energy left over for an exit that's frosting on the cake.
Can this be done with a 6.5mm? Absolutly ! A 156gr conventional cup and core at 2600 fps. could get mule deer as well as most.Again JMHO based on experience. roger

Bobby Tomek ; No they don't . I have loaded and shot so many of almost everything I load for , that I know where impact will be at just about any given distance 500 Yd. or under .

A lot of practice and knowing the particular loads in the weapon I'm using to hunt with is the Key to success .

Rodger that's right a 6.5mm will do an outstanding job . I've used my old Swede a few times and it's yet to fail . Easy on recoil doesn't mess things up real bad , What's not to like about it !.

I just bring enough gun to the party no matter what shows up .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

What Hot Core said.

I prefer larger calibres because they more reliably leave a blood trail on moose, but I have shot moose with everything from 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser to .375 H&H Magnum.

Also, I prefer the larger calibres because you can reliably take a shot from any angle (something that you cannot do on a moose when you are shooting a 6.5).

With my moose hunting team here in Sweden, I have skinned & cut up about 40 moose shot with many different calibres, and I have always done a bit of dissection to evaluate bullet performance!

However, I do not feel handicapped with the smaller calibres much: this year I may have to use one because of a shoulder injury. We will see what I can shoot in September!

John

quote:

Originally posted by jpb:
this year I may have to use one because of a shoulder injury. We will see what I can shoot in September!John

Do it John! roger

A blood trail is one of the last things I would even think of. Where I hunt it does not snow so a blood trail would be difficult to follow.
I think in terms of an animal running 20 feet or less and it is rare to shoot at running game. Running usually means a white flag as it disappears 80 yards away so what is the point.
Shoot to kill on the spot and that means no .22 centerfires and be really careful with anything smaller than a .257 Roberts.

quote:

... Carrying multiple versions of ammo on a hunt for a single species is a recipe for disaster.

This may be true but I'm sure Dr K knows what he is doing!

quote:

This fall it will be a .223 shooting 40 grainers at 3925 fps for the mulies.

TEANCUM, what striking velocity do you expect? Please keep us posted on your results.
In my kind of terrain, I need reliable penetration to reach the vitals from 'any' angle. (But some do take head shots on deer here).

quote:

My thinking, now, is that deep penatration with massive internal tissue damage, every time, by design ( proper caliber and bullet) is the answer. If your selection of design allows enough energy left over for an exit that's frosting on the cake.
Can this be done with a 6.5mm? Absolutly ! A 156gr conventional cup and core at 2600 fps. could get mule deer as well as most. Again JMHO based on experience. roger

After treading this thread, I am leaning towards your view, Roger.

I had this recent experience;
The bullet was a 180gr Speer RNSP fired from a 303brit with MV of around 2300fps. Range 160m. Striking velocity around 1700fps. The bullet struck the muscle between the shoulder blade and the foreleg bone, punched a three-rib hole, passed just under the spine and exited between the shoulder blade and foreleg bone. The animal did not just drop. It flinched then turned around facing downhill and lay on its legs. It then got up and tried to make a get-away but could not quite keep its direction. (Steep hill-slope). My companion put a shot through its neck. Bleeding was minimal through the entry and exit wounds but massive in the chest cavity and into the entry shoulder muscle (and a fair bit in the exit muscle). There was a little blood on the nose. Zero blood on the ground. This animal had been aroused so would have had adrenalin in its system but still, it was hit hard. The exit wound was larger than diameter meaning it was mushroomed bullet sized. So, had this animal been able to run or walk off (if it was on flat ground it would have), it would not have left any blood trail. Also, the very slow bullet delivered one helluva blow.

quote:

.... I do not feel handicapped with the smaller calibres much: this year I may have to use one because of a shoulder injury. ...

A reflex suppressor adds 50mm or so to the muzzle length, very little weight, can improve the balance a little and cuts recoil by 20 to 30%. Just a thought.

several years ago I shot a fair size whitetail doe at less than 100 yards...It was hit quite nicely with a .300 H&H and 200 grain A-Frames I had left over from an African hunt.

Lo-and-behold it didn't drop DRT.....it run off and left a blood trail (no snow at that time) a blind man could follow. It looked like Charlie Manson and company had just been there.....blood everywhere!!!!!

I found the deer about 30 yards away dead.....and still can't fugure how it got that far!!!!! The damage to the deer was enormous and much more than I've ever done with even a .375 H&H.....

The only blood trail I've ever seen so well defined was from a neck shot deer using a .25-06 and it was also very easy to follow.....again about 40 yards is all it took.

Because the .30-06 is so common, I've trailed many deer taken with that cartridge and often had trouble finding the trail.....you look very carefully for the least spec of red you can find.....

On another occasion I put a 130 grain ballistic tip from a .270 into the boiler room of a deer and it run off about 40 yards and left no trail at all!

I almost didn't find it. That was the last ballistic tip I ever used for deer.

Last fall I used a 6.5 X 55 on a 10-point whitetail buck and it run off after the 120 Northfork carved a hole through the boiler room leaving an exit the size of a baseball.....I had no trouble finding that deer either.

Everyone to their own.....I really try to shoot something that will exit and I haven't found that bigger is better.....not yet that is.

Many of the reasons touched apoun by this topic are why I've given up on traditional heart/lung shots for deer. A heartshot deer can simply cover too much ground for my liking. Nowdays I tend to use heavy for caliber bullets and shoot the front shoulder. I get two benifets from taking such shots. First the heavy muscle and bone helps aid in bullet expansion resulting in more blood loss and internal damage and secondly it's really hard for em to get away with 1/2 their undercarriage taken out.

I've had some awesome bloodtrails not lead to my deer when shooting the heart/lungs. In fact the two longest and heaviest bloodtrails I've followed didn't result in a recovered animal.

Mmmm.... Interesting Krochus. I am about to give up on heart/lung shots too. I thought I would be saving meat but now I think DRT is more important. Trouble is, I am not quite sure where to aim for shoulder shots - most 'target zone' info is for the heart/lung. Do you have any links or illustrations/descriptions?

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Thank you for all of your well thought out and articulated responses to my question.

In my experience which is limited to Pennsylvania whitetail hunting with a 243 Winchester, I have found profuse to non-existent blood trails while using 100 grain Sierra bullets. Actually, the blood trails were unnecessary, since none of the deer ran over 20 yards before expiring. All of the deer shot were heart or lung shots.

On the other hand, a long time hunting buddy of mine for many years used a 300 Win. Mag. exclusively (he was a LRP in Viet Nam, used one there - so the 300 Win. Mag.) until I sold him a pre-64 Model 70 in 30-06.

His problem was a too strongly constructed bullet in most cases. He shot a deer one time at close range, using factory ammunition with 220 grain bullets (don't know what kind) and the impact lifted the deer up and slammed it into a tree. It ran 150-200 yards into another hunter's arms.

My friend followed it up. The other hunter had finished it off with a 30-30 I think, and my friend's 300 Win. Mag. bullet had penciled through.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Mmmm.... Interesting Krochus. I am about to give up on heart/lung shots too. I thought I would be saving meat but now I think DRT is more important. Trouble is, I am not quite sure where to aim for shoulder shots - most 'target zone' info is for the heart/lung. Do you have any links or illustrations/descriptions?

You're correct, most of these "target zone" charts are made with bow hunters in mind.

I aim a little farther forward and higher than the traditional heart lung shot. If done right you can take out that shoulder joint and the front of the lungs.

As to meat loss, I'm reminded of an exchange a co worker had with a gunstore clerk over 30-06 silvertips.

<clerk> You'll lose too much meat with those shells.

<buddy> Lose too much meat?! Hell I'm losing the whole damn deer.

Gidday Guys,

I think the need for a blood trail depends very much on the hunting style and country in which one hunts.

When I hunted in the North Island in the thicker bush and in creek beds choked with log jams a DRT or a good blood trail was helpful to ensure you took the meat home very often.

Down here in the South Island it is not so necesary as the hunting is more often on the tops and the bush itself is much more open than the lawyer choked guts up north (west coast excepted).

Barry my closest hunting mate actually lost more deer using his 30-06 and 150gr bullets than he has with his .243 win and 85gr hp. This would be because he is being more careful with his shot placement and he is more confident. He has taken more deer home with the 243 than he ever did with the 30-06.

Personally I have not ever really trailed a deer by the blood trail but have used the footprints and other tracking techniques to follow up shot animals. Knowledge of the animals habits and where to look is more useful I feel.

When using my 30-06, 303 or 308 I have also seen cases where there is no blood trail on deer and goats even with saucer sized exit wounds when a high lung shot is used. This is always quickly fatal but the chest cavity is full of blood and acts as a bucket collecting the blood preventing a blood trail.

I think you are bound to be disappointed if you are going to rely on a blood trail to find the beasties. Use it as just one tool in your inventory of skills for tracking.

Just a thought.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:


[QUOTE] This fall it will be a .223 shooting 40 grainers at 3925 fps for the mulies.

TEANCUM, what striking velocity do you expect? Please keep us posted on your results.


The area that we hunt in is quite open with some small pockets of buckbrush and Quakies trees mate. So the distances will vary but the most common expected distance I would guess to be at 200 to 300 yards but that's a big guess.

These blood trail discussions point out to me the lack of experience among those who hunt and shoot game animals. If the bullet hits the heart there won't be a lot of bleeding because there is no pump. If the hit is low in the chest there will be some blood accumulating there and this may run out but not necessarily. I have made high center lung hits where there was a big exit hole and the only real blood was where the deer was laying on the entrance or exit hole with a spattering of drop that came from the deers nose as he ran. There is usually some blood where tha animal was standing when hit. In snow warm blood often makes it under the top level of snow and is hard to see but then you have the animals tracks. Speaking of tracks these happen to be an excellent way of following game and a skill worth learning. My hits are usually at the neck in front of the shoulder or in the middle of the deers chest behind the shoulder aimed to come out behind the far shoulder to save meat. By far the most time I have seen people spend tracking is when they take off and pass the spot where the animal fell searching where it isn't for hours. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard "We looked for hours and stumbled on him on the way out 30 yards from where it was shot" I have an alomost totally worthless hound dog that will find deer every time but rarely is she needed. Ease off the excitement and take your time from the start, this will save a lot of time. Don't count on any cartridge to consistantly provide a blood trail.

I shot a deer in the neck at 10yds with a .223 64gr power point bullet.Deer went down on the spot.Blood pouring out of her neck.

Vapodog, since a .243 kills as good as a 30-06, do you use that popgun on your Cape Buffalo? Sorry, that theory just doesn't compute.

With modern, HV bullets, it is generally the EXIT wound that determines if there will be a blood trail. It is quite likely that skin and fat will seal up an entrance wound, preventing bleeding, in most HV rounds below .45 caliber.

So whether you will get a blood trail or not often depends on whether there is an exit wound, and the size of that hole. Even a .243 can leave an exit wound of a couple of inches or more, depending on bullet construction, how far the bullet must travel, and the kind of tissue it must pass thru to get to the other side of the critter.

I have never noticed much difference in blood trails when using sa 6.5X55mm vs a .270, 7X57mm or even a .30/'06.

quote:

Originally posted by Krochus:
Many of the reasons touched apoun by this topic are why I've given up on traditional heart/lung shots for deer. A heartshot deer can simply cover too much ground for my liking. Nowdays I tend to use heavy for caliber bullets and shoot the front shoulder. I get two benifets from taking such shots. First the heavy muscle and bone helps aid in bullet expansion resulting in more blood loss and internal damage and secondly it's really hard for em to get away with 1/2 their undercarriage taken out.

I've had some awesome bloodtrails not lead to my deer when shooting the heart/lungs. In fact the two longest and heaviest bloodtrails I've followed didn't result in a recovered animal.

These are precisely the kind of shots I take when shooting a MaxiBall from a muzzleloader.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:


[QUOTE] This fall it will be a .223 shooting 40 grainers at 3925 fps for the mulies.

TEANCUM, what striking velocity do you expect? Please keep us posted on your results.


The area that we hunt in is quite open with some small pockets of buckbrush and Quakies trees mate. So the distances will vary but the most common expected distance I would guess to be at 200 to 300 yards but that's a big guess.

IF you fire a 40-grain .224" bullet at 3925 FPS MV, what energy remains at 300 yards??