A friend of mine was injured at a shooting range this past weekend. He gave me the following account of it.

Guy next to him was shooting a newer Savage bolt rifle in 300 RUM. It had a synthetic stock. The reloaded ammo was a 200 grain Nosler Accubond with 93 grains of Reloader 25. First shot hit the target and the primer was dimpled around the firing pin dent. The shooter had a problem chambering the second shot, (he had to force the bolt closed). The rifle blew up at the shot.

The action came completely apart and it broke the scope in half. The bolt struck my friend in the head at the next bench over resulting in a serious cut requiring a trip to the E.R. Even wearing earmuffs the sound rendered him temporarily deaf and his ears are still ringing the next day.

The barrel seperated completely from the action but otherwise didn't come apart. The case was still in the chamber minus the bullet and the case head. Unknown where the bullet went as it didn't hit the target. The shooter and his friend to the other side caught some minor metal wounds and fragments of the synthetic stock.

What's interesting is the same guy was also shooting a 338 Lapua that day and also loads for it. Couple questions. Is it possible to chamber a 338 Lapua in a 300 RUM? Would it be possible to seat a .338 bullet in a 300 RUM and close the bolt.

My friend believes somebody might have taken some photos and he's trying to get them.

You would have to hammer the bolt closed on the Lapua case to get it to fit.

The 338 lapua is .587 at the base, .544 at the shoulder and .370 at the neck.
The 300 RUM is longer but only .553 at the base .526 at the shoulder and only .346 at the neck.

So you would have to squeeze it down .034 at the base, .018 at the shoulder and .024 at the neck.

That would take a lot of force.

The Savage is known as a very strong action so that must have been a hell of a load. Please let us know what the investigation reveals, if possible.

Not even a gorilla could chamber a 338 Lapua in the .300 RUM...Speculation might be that the brass was far too long and caused the pinch point that created high pressures.

It's also possible that a previous cartridge left a bullet in the lands and the following shot pushed the bullet into the case and then he attempted to shoot two bullets at once. It's happened.

It's actually poor of me or anyone to speculate what was the cause as there's so many things it could be. Just happy no one was killed and I hope the injured persons heal completely.

"...200 grain Nosler Accubond with 93 grains of Reloader 25..."

RL-25 From 76.0 grains to 92.0 grains
Federal 215 Primer

Is he an experienced reloader?

Did he work-up to 93 grains or did he just jump right in?

Does he weigh each charge or does he depend on his powder measure or dipper?

A couple of observations here.....93 grains of RL25 and a 200 grain bullet is redlined and then some IMO At this point it really don't take much to cause trouble.

This is hard though as the Savage action is as tough as any out there. It's among the few I'd least expect to come apart under any circumstances. This leads me to believe the error was not a minor one but something much more serious than a pinched bullet by a "too long" case. Pressures of 100,000 PSI are not likely to cause this kind of response. IMO the pressures was in excess of this and a lot !!! Possibly in the neighborhood of 200,000 PSI and I'm speaking very much off the cuff here but to say.....there was a serious error....not a routine screw up.

If a person was able to get a .338 bullet in the .300 RUM (unlikely) and stuff it in the chamber this is the type of error that will cause this reaction. This seems extremely unlikely.

It is conceivable to put a .338 Win Mag in the .300 rum however and this would create such a result.

QL estimates 72,500 PSI for 300 RUM with 93 grs. Re25 with a 200 gr. Accubond - that's HOT!

Moreover, results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge. Maybe he got into a HOT lot of Re25.

Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:

.....93 grs. of HOT-lot Re25 - 87,327 PSI

Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:

.....93 grs. of COLD-lot Re25 - 57,598 PSI

Another consideration is the ambient temperature - cool day or hot day?

According to QL, maximum Re25 load for 65,000 PSI/200 Accubond is 90 grs.

Yet, I wouldn't think that would blow his gun up. Possibly, he switched powder by accident or created some kind of obstruction by forcing the bolt closed - maybe pinching the bullet in some way.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
QL estimates 72,500 PSI for 300 RUM with 93 grs. Re25 with a 200 gr. Accubond - that's HOT!

According to QL, maximum Re25 load for 65,000 PSI/200 Accubond is 90 grs.

Yet, I wouldn't think that would blow his gun up. Possibly, he switched powder by accident or created some kind of obstruction by forcing the bolt closed - maybe pinching the bullet in some way.

I agree that the rifle should not hae blown up with the stated load, if it was indeed as stated.

Since we're all speculating, without real evidence to back up our speculations, I'll raise another possibility: Is it possible that this Savage action was defective, somehow, so that it could not withstand what would otherwise have been high but still safe pressure, and thus blew up on the second firing?

Metal fatigue is accumulative. Keep shooting excessive pressure loads, and bad things can happen. But I agree that without an inspection of the metal, it is impossible to know for sure.

Sad that bystanders were hurt.

The first shot did not hang up in the barrel as it hit the target. The guy had fired this load before. The bullet sitting atop the blow up did not strike the target. The barrel seperated from the action but of the major chunks left of the rifle it was the most intact.

Hopefully we will get some photos.

I think the difficult bolt closing is the big clue. Something really had to pinch the neck down to create a catastrophic pressure spike. He was talking about how he had put a heavy crimp on these particular load.


NOTE: I'm getting this second hand from my injured pal. I'm going to try and get him to post here. He apparently knows the owner/shooter of the 300RUM. He knows this guy has a history of just going to the max load right from git-go. Seems he blew up a Glock .45 with some of his reloads earlier this year. (Me thinks the lad has some quality control issues with his reloading!).

Just more conjecture from me . Is your friend positive that the other shooter was indeed shooting a .338 Lapua and not a .338 RUM? It may be entirely plausible that a .338 RUM with a bullet seated deeper than standard would chamber in a .300 RUM. Or a .338 RUM with a loose neck that allowed a bullet to crush into the throat in a .300 RUM would be plausible as well. Either of these conditions would cause the type of catastrophic failure described.

As far as the specific load is concerned it may or may not be hot but certainly not enough to destroy a 110 with one shot, not withstanding material defect. But I would bet that Savage blue pills each 110 somewhere in the neighborhood of 100K psi just to make sure such failures don't happen in the hands of the shooting public. Maybe this guy should stick to factory ammo!

quote:

He knows this guy has a history of just going to the max load right from git-go. Seems he blew up a Glock .45 with some of his reloads earlier this year. (Me thinks the lad has some quality control issues with his reloading!).

Sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by DavidReed:
It may be entirely plausible that a .338 RUM with a bullet seated deeper than standard would chamber in a .300 RUM.

I doubt, Dave, that even the case alone of a .338 RUM could be hammered into a .300 RUM chamber. The neck diameter for one would prevent that.

What ever made that bolt handle hard to close seems to be the most likely culprit.???????

If Clark Magnuson were still around he probably could shed some light on this. He's sensibly tested more fire arms to destruction than anyone I ever heard of. roger

DaveReed,
It was a 338 Lapua. My friend knows his stuff (he's an accomplished 50 BMG shooter) and is certain the other gun is a Lapua. I've emailed him the thread to encourage him to weigh in on this thread.

I am thinking secondary explosion effect. It has happened on more than a few occasions with large doses of slow burning powder.

And I understand that he was a grain over max, but that in and of itself isn't enough to cause a blow-up, from what I understand. A stiff bolt lift and hard extraction, possibly, but a blow-up? I don't think so... I have to believe he had some sort of a barrel obstruction, and SEE is most likely, I believe.

was he sure it was RL25? sounds fishy to me. A prior load fired with no stiff bolt, then a blow-up? A secondary explosion on a light charge maybe? Wrong powder maybe? I thought that it took a LOT more than SAAMI max pressure to blow up a gun.

.

impossible to get a lapua case in a 300 rum chamber without a hydrolic ram... firstly, the casehead wouldn't come CLOSE to fitting the boltface.. HUGELY different- secondly the throat of a shot out .308 caliber MIGHT, just MIGHT let you beat in a .311 bullet.. MAYBE.. but the throat will have a nominal .308 diameter... no POSSIBLE way to drive a .338 bullet into the threat...

you might, just might, manager to get a .338 rum CASE into a 300 rum chamber, without said hydrolics.. but with a bullet, you would still need it...

(grin) and, of course, the soldered bolt handle would have fallen off while you tried...

quote:

his guy has a history of just going to the max load right from git-go

you-are-kidding...

this reloader is a classic case of "reloading is for everyone, just not for long!!"


Alf,
I am with you.. i've hand several heated discussions with persons that CLAIM to load .327 fast abovemag goober 200 fps faster than the facotyr claimed.. and PROMISE they aren't seeing "pressure signs".. I swear some people need steel raing or being slapped in the cheek with a bolt to KNOW that the smoke coming from the receiver "is bad"...

this fella blew up his gun, plain and simple... nearly a darwin award... he's damn lucky if the injured parties don't seek remedy, with his history.

jeffe

Data from Alliant suggests 91.5 grains as max for that 200 grain bullet in the 300 RUM and using RL25

FWIW!!!

First shot hit the target and the primer was dimpled around the firing pin dent. The shooter had a problem chambering the second shot, (he had to force the bolt closed). The rifle blew up at the shot.[/quote]

Gents,

How many of you would have fired that round?
I suspect that 99% of you would have stopped and ejected that round and looked for a problem.

When I'm at the bench, I'm not only looking for peculiar happenings with my loads, but keep an eye out at the folks next to me.

I have, in the past, watched a fellow hammer with his fist, a stuck bolt. Needless to say, I left my position and suggested to those at the other side they also should leave.

Luckily, nothing happened with the following shots.

We waited until this fellow quit shooting then went about our business.

Glad to hear the other shooters have recovered without life changing injuries.

BTW, I use to load a 110 Savage in 300 Win. mag, with 220's to the book max without any problems. I suspect his blow-up load was a pure mistake on his part.

Roger QSL

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Com'on guys what's the big deal for some here on AR to actually boast pressure cieling of this cartridge was exceded with this load pure and simple so whats with the big investigation ?

As others have said, a smallish overload shouldn't/wouldn't blow the piece up.
So what was it about the bolt having to be forced closed, do you reckon? Just a coincidence?
The big message I see here is if it don't chamber easely, have a look see WHY.
JL.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:


Seems he blew up a Glock .45 with some of his reloads earlier this year. (Me thinks the lad has some quality control issues with his reloading!).

Sounds like Darwin is after him in a big way.

.

Still seems to me that something is missing from this puzzle...

several grains over on a slow powder like RL 25 are not going to pull a Savage apart to that extent...

we may never know what the cause was....

I would tend to lean toward operator error...

YOU never know, he may have had another 18 rounds loaded, sitting there waiting to blow up another rifle.....

Bottom line, people really need to watch what the heck they are doing...

how much extra powder does that case hold after 93 grains of RL 25......

was he duplexing loads to try and get more velocity???

did he pour some faster powder back into the cannister of RL 25 one night, such as RL 15 or something????when he wasn't paying attention???

for a rifle to come apart like that, I would speculate that he had about 10 to 12 grains of a medium burn rate powder in there to cause that result.....I am sure 10 grains over max of RL 25 would have really blew the primer and stuck the case in the breech big time, but not make a Savage come apart....

10 grains or more of RL 15 would darn sure have...

Clark exposed me to a batch of his experiments exploding actions.....

still goes back to paying attention and working up! sorry others had to get hurt for one banana's stupidity....

plus the loss of a good savage.... but also, another reason, for my not seeing a big reason for a magnum...tell one guy that a 300 Mag will send a 150 grain bullet 3500 fps and he will immediately think he needs to make it go 4000 fps....

faster is never fast enough to some guys.....

seafire

I started a thread a while back asking if anyone posting here had experienced head separation or blowing primers. Many had, but none of the blown primers or head separations had caused a catastrophic blow-up. For the first time, I experienced a head separation - just above the web - using a mild charge of Ramshot Magnum powder in an old (brittle) Super Speed Winchester case. There was no blow-up nor a loose primer pocket afterwards.

The 300 RUM blow-up in this thread must have some element of obstruction - the difficult bolt closing is a bad sign, which should have been investigated before firing. My dad always admonished me to NEVER FORCE THINGS! If you do, you're looking for trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
In the Barnes manual they list 83 gr of RL25 as the absolute max for the Barnes X 200 gr Bullet on the 300 RUM; It is even undesrcored with a warning that it is max!

That would only mean something if he was using Barnes X bullets. He wasn't. The 200 Barnes X is the highest friction bullet I've ever seen and yes, if you put it on top of a max load for another bullet you can expect to blow a primer (ask me how I know ).

That's the reason Barnes has such a low powder charge for that bullet. They also list a full 80 grains for a 250 grain original.

Something was very wrong for this gun to blow up. Sorry, 1.5 grains over max wasn't the culprit here.

quote:

The 300 RUM blow-up in this thread must have some element of obstruction - the difficult bolt closing is a bad sign, which should have been investigated before firing.

Yup...that's a big 10-4!!

quote:

That would only mean something if he was using Barnes X bullets. He wasn't.

Something was very wrong for this gun to blow up. Sorry, 1.5 grains over max wasn't the culprit here.

This, too, is a reasonably assessment.

quote:

plus the loss of a good savage

if you say so.....

Of the theories I've read the "obstruction" thought seems the best one.

Your friend might try to get the guy to try a tight patch or slug the bore. If there is any degree of bulge it will indicate pretty easily. That may help determine if there was an obstruction.

I know I've stapled up a target before, only to get back to the bench and find a hole in it. Usually I put up a dirty target and didn't know it but once for sure a new shooter just shot my target by mistake before I did.

Two things come to mind- first:

"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."

Reloading is more forgiving than flying, but staying in the hot zone will eventually get you into trouble.

Second: I have made three stupid mistakes in 25 years of reloading. All due to being distracted.
I once put the 380 back into the big can of 4350. That was expensive but easily noticable because of the different appearance of the powder. I split a case after accidently chambering a 270 in a 7mm Rem mag. If it had been a 308 I might have blown up the gun. And I got a stuck bullet after firing a primer only reload (oops, no powder). We can all make stupid miskakes.

If this guy really has blown up two gun with reloads, he shouldn't be allowed on the range unless he has factory ammo.
Paul

Suppose I try to chamber a 338 in a 300. Is it possible that the 338 cal bullet gets pushed back into the case, but as posted above, with excessive force, the 338 case does chamber. If I fire the round the bullet has no place to go, and I have a bomb in the chamber. Possible?
peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Suppose I try to chamber a 338 in a 300. Is it possible that the 338 cal bullet gets pushed back into the case, but as posted above, with excessive force, the 338 case does chamber. If I fire the round the bullet has no place to go, and I have a bomb in the chamber. Possible?
peter.

Remotely possiable IF the other rifle was a 338RUM, but as it was a Lapua there's no way. Even then you would be hammering the bolt forward to get it in, not the just handle down to get it closed.

Peter,
The bullet may get pushed back but there is no way you could crush the neck 0.030 to get the rest of the round even in the chamber.
Matt, Not sure if you could get this done beings the friend of a friend of a friend thing but, I would suggest gathering all the parts that can be found and send it all back to Savage and see what they can come up with. They have a lab for stuff like this. I am sure they would want to know if there may be something wrong with thier equipment too.


Smedley

I have locked the bolt in my MATCH CHAMBERED 300RUM with a 200gr SMK in 95* heat with a round that had somehow not been seated all the way. That pill had to be helped along,..and then of course so did the handle when trying to open the breech. HOWEVER, the H1000 at max 88.0gr's (max in this chamber) DID NOT BLOW THE ACTION. The actions are stronger than the cases by a long shot. (oh yeah, the handle stayed on too )

I still say wrong powder or obstruction of some type. My money will go to fast powder mistake made by the loader until the investigation reveals more.

Wow so this guy blew up 2 guns in one year! So I take it he doesn't learn from his mistakes, either that or he is the unluckiest guy in the world. I wonder if after he blew up his 45 he decided to solve 2 problems at once. Those problems being, having powder for a gun he no can no longer use and the high rate of powder consumption in his 300 rum. Solution of course being to mix them in some form.

I don't know how close I would be if this guy takes out his .338 Lapua. I would be worried about him pulling off a hat trick of somesort.

Thank God no one was killed or seriously hurt.
Judge Sharpe

Howdy all,
I am Matt's friend, the guy that took the bolt(I think) to the head with this KABOOM...
I'll go over it again but Matt conveyed most of the facts as I know them correctly..
My friend brought 2 rifles to fire on Sunday. The first was his dad's, a .338 Lapua pushing 250g projos (Accubonds?). He fired that gun a couple/three times with the loads for that gun and everything was fine. Then he pulled out his rifle. The rifle was a factory Savage Model 116FSS with a new McMillan A-5 stock (I think) that he calls Franken-Savage because of the green/grey marbled stock that it was sporting.
He was shooting his own load which he said were topped with 200g Nosler Accubonds behind 93 grains of Reloader 25 powder (I don't know the primer #/type). He says that this was not a "new" load for him, but I also heard him say that this was the first time he had tried the Accubonds, so I guess it WAS a "new" loading afterall...
The rifle had definitely been fired before as I believe he has owned it for a year or better. He also did his own barrel threading on this rifle to allow it to accept the muzzle brake that was on it (I also think this was done some time ago). He fired the first shot of this "load" and everthing seemed to be fine. The bullet hit the target approximately where he thought it would but I think it extracted with a bit of difficulty. I was on the bench to his right and I saw him inspecting the first fired case so I nosed in and took a look for myself. The primer on the first case was flattened a bit and also was fairly cratered around the firing pin dent.. I have seen worse signs of pressure in my past experience but I DID suggest to him that it looked a bit "high pressure" to me and I wandered back to my bench to shoot my own rifle. He also happened to be shooting through a chronograph, and I remember this round measureing @ 3100FPS at about 6 feet from the muzzle...
As I prepared to load my rifle, I saw him put another round in the action of Franken-Savage and I recall him having difficulty in getting it to chamber. Thinking that my friend wasn't an "idiot", I let him figure it out and I continued about my own business. He pulled out the round, looked at it, and evidently saw nothing "wrong" so he forced it into the chamber, this time he was able to get the bolt closed... I wasn't watching closely enough to tell you how much force it took to chamber this round, all I know is that he got it in with some effort... He got behind the rifle, touched off the trigger and KABOOM!
The concussion of the blast made my ears ring so loud that I could barely hear the people asking me if I was O.K. even with my ear muffs OFF.. Along with the blast, I was hit in the head by what felt like a BRICK that was dropped out of an airplane flying overhead... The rifle was completely destroyed and the bolt was left sitting on my bench, that's why I think it is the piece of the rifle that hit me.
The receiver "evaporated"! We could barely find ANY of it around the scene! The barrel was sitting there on the bench and it appeared to be "untouched" by anything. I didn't look down the bore (I was too busy trying to stop my head from bleeding and trying to figure out if I had metal in my skull) but supposedly, there was "nothing" in the bore itself and the bore looked to be "pristine". The threaded barrel locking "ring" on the receiver was "cleanly cut" down the middle like somebody had taken a saw to it (this a report from somebody else on the scene, I was too busy bleeding). I talked to the my friend "the shooter" again last night and he said, "the barrel looks fine except that the case is stuck in the chamber minus the "head". The Boltface is slightly "blackened" but shows no other signs of primer cup/case head failure". I asked him how that KABOOM loading was different than others he had supposedly tried in the past and he said ".. this was the first time I tried a crimp on that load". The Accubond does NOT have a crimp groove/cannelure on that projo...
Right after this happened, I asked my friend if there was ANY way that he loaded a .338 projo on top of his .300RUM case and he said "no way".
Considering the massive detonation that happened he and I are lucky to be alive... He sustained some fiberglass "shrapnel" to his left forearm and left cheek and X-rays showed that he also had 3 small (maybe 1/8" across) pieces of metal under the skin on his left shoulder... Yesterday, he said he felt "Great" (figures) .
I just got off the phone with Mike Harris at Nosler and while he suggested that the load in question may have been a bit "high" it shouldn't in itself been enough to cause such a catastrophic failure.. When I told him the scenario, he suggested a lack of trimming to the case in question as being the culprit OR that a possible condition of excessive fouling in the first 6 inches or so of the bore could be a cause for said KABOOM when coupled with this "high pressure load"...
You guys are great help here on this site and I really appreciate all of the input..
I DO have access to 6-7 pictures that were taken by another member of my club right after the explosion but he doesn't currently own the hardware/software to get those picture off of his cell phone and onto the computer... I told him I would buy him that "stuff" IF I could have the pics... When I get them, I will post them here for all of you to peruse....
Thanks again for the help and concern... I should be back in a couple of days with the photos...
Now, if I could just gets these ears to stop ringing and get rid of this headache/dizzy feeling.....
Pat Smith

A question for you learned gents. I've been reloading a while but I'm no expert. My 338 Win Mag sometimes exibits difficulty in closing the bolt with trimmed to specs reloaded brass. My loads are well within published figures so I know that that is not a factor. If I experience a "little" diffculty in closing the bolt, I go ahead and shoot it without any problems, but anything more than cursory difficulty in closing I reject the load outright. So the question is, should I even reject even those cases that give me even the slightest difficulty? thanks. jorge

quote:

I have been around AR since 2000 and HA before and we have gotten into huge arguements about pressure and what guns can take ( or rather metallic cases )

Ditto.

Metal fatigue is cumulative.

Also, IME the Accubond is one of those "sticky bullets" than runs pressure's higher than regular bullets and usually reqires one back off a max charge, not pile more on.

This guy is several grain's over max, is using an Accubond and crimped the round.

Too, folks that load for the RUM's are prone to redlining them... goes with the territory.

Bottom line, seems like the moon and stars aligned and a bunch of mistakes culminated at that moment.

Pat, you're darn fortunate... speedy recovery to you!

Glad to see you're ok. Get well asap. Sounds to me like there could be a bunch of "small" problems that all came to a head at once. Heavy load, possible barrel fouling, the AB's are longer bullets so I'd imagine that he could have had it pushed up against the lands? Who knows there may have been a flaw in the action and all of these things were the straw that broke the camel's back.

Pat,
Just glad you're OK!!!
That story is terrifying... WOW!!!
What range were you shooting at?
Who was the guy?
I'm from down that way.
Don

jorge,

I no expert reloader either so this might be a dumb answer! First do you neck size or full length resize your cases? If you neck size, periodically you need to FL resize them other wise they do get tight to chamber...

I think the same thing can happen if you incorrectly set up your full length resizing die so its not pushing the should back enough..

Regards,

Regards,

Pete