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Thanks Dutch! Heard a lot of guys talk about the "dreaded doughnut", and have wondered just what it was. The guy that taught me to reload always told me to put bullet into every fired case as a check. If it doesn't drop in all the way, pitch the case and adjust the dies. Never had to do either. | |||
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I doubt seriously that Savage or any other manufacturer will even reply to this situation other than to express concern for peoples safety and health. Legally they would be truly stupid to state anything that could be misconstrued as liabelous. Would you? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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89.0 Re25 is MAX in my 300 Ultra with the 200 AB bullet. I wonder if the guy was using a powder thrower and didn't visually check each case for similar powder levels before seating bullets. Thus, dumping too much in that case, and in addition the case was too long. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Hey shooters/hand loaders This is all endless speculation. We need a professionel lab to examine all the evidence. We don't have all the facts! How does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but looses his soul | |||
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Unfortunately, I think Iron Worker may be right, not that I don't appreciate the "speculation" anyway... I have to find out if my friend has removed the stuck case yet to see if IT contains any "evidence" of the cause... The barrel being left pretty much intact says a lot to me however.. I actually AM planning on contacting Savage for the heck of it anyway, just to see what they say... If they clam up and say "these are the dangers of shooting handloads" then that may be it... If they offer some more "constructive" specualtion, then that is all the better... Vapodog may be right though.... With all the Jeffrey Figer types out there nowadays, they may not say a flippin' thing other than, "we hope you both are alright.."... I will certainly let you all know what I come up with.... | |||
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Vapdog is correct, they will probably clam up but would be interesting to know if they will want the rifle back to do their own analysis. If you have suffered injury and intend to take legal action you need to seek your own counsel and experts. Be careful to not damage the fracture surfaces or mess with anything as you can ruin valuable evidence as to failure analysis. Your a bystander, reloads have nothing to do with you. Only you can decide what course of action to take. | |||
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This thread alone heavily documents the cause of the incident as extremely likely the result of careless reloading. I can't believe anyone at Savage wants to even know about it or see it or touch it with a ten foot pole.....maybe even a lot longer. While I'd like to hear what "experts" have to say about it.....the chances are very unlikely that anyone will ever hear. Afterall there was very little injury here. It appears as though there's no permanent injury and if there is a case it will in all likely be lodged at the person owning the gun as his homeowners policy might include some personal liability. If I'm an exec at Savage I'm following this thread and hitting the print button daily. There has been no evidence reported here that implicates them directly. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Once again I suggest that the best evidence that can be examined to get to the bottom of this is to inspect the remaining handloads! From what we see and have read the most logical assumption would be that there were three basic existing problems, an untrimmed neck coupled with a crimped bullet, a hot load, and finally an insipient head case seperation. One can argue that that shouldnt be enough to wreck an action, but it is wrecked. Without further analisis we are all just speculating. I would bet a 20 dollar bill though that the handloads have varying shortcomings and inconsistencies and I woudnt be suprised if a pushed back shoulder is one of them. | |||
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Wstrnhuntr The remaining rounds are not in my possession, and while I HAVE put the shooter on notice to NOT alter them in any way, he has already started to "back peddle" a bit... In fact he may be watching this very thread too because of what he has said to me in my correspondence with him since the accident? He told me, after I let him know not to alter the rounds or gun parts, that he had unloaded one round already, and amazingly, he said that the load was NOW 91g RL25 and that the case was at its' "trim to" length (which I never even asked him about the case length in that email!)... I know for a fact that I saw "93-RL25" written in marker ON the case of the round that was fired before the KABOOM because I asked him what that meant and that's what he told me at the time... It's a good thing that I also have the range officer at my shooting club and the guy that took the first set of pics on the range to back me up, because they too remember seeing "93-RL25" on his loaded rounds... For all I know, he may have pulled all the remaining rounds apart already and trimmed/reloaded them to a lesser load...? I know he honestly feels terrible about what happened, just as well as I would if I did this to him... He really is a "good guy", and I don't hold much against him "personally"... It was probably a combination of "little" bad judgements that came together "perfectly" to cause this thing to KABOOM in a BIG way... IF the action was to blame at all, I cannot say right now... DemoSam MAY have a point, that I certainly will follow up on, just in case... I seriously believe that most gun manufacturers are WELL covered by the "do not shoot reloads in this weapon blah blah blah" clauses that are found all over the owners manuals that come with all firearms... Unless I can prove a history of this type of failure on .300RUM Savages for WHATEVER reason, I don't think Savage has a lot to worry about... BUT, I may be wrong... I am jusy hoping to recover all of my hearing/facilities (hopefully sooner than later!) and all of this will just be tabulated as a "bad experience" in the journal of life... There certainly are other "bad experiences" on that side of my personal journal already! LOL... | |||
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At this point it seems that the remaining rounds are suspect as evidence for the purpose of determining the cause. Such is life. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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How much RE25 would be required to give you a really crunchy compressed load in this cartridge/bullet combo? One possibility that hasn't been explored much is the powder thrower. Some powders like to bridge/stick/jam in my measures, and plenty others have said the same. If the guy had 2-3 grains stick he might not notice it and add the 2-3 grains to his next load. I was just wondering how noticable that would be in that case/bullet... Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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Which is a great reason to wiegh every load if you are near max. Slows you down, but that isn't a bad thing at times. | |||
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In talking with the shooter just before KABOOM (when he told me about his "code" that was written on the cases) I asked him about "how full are your cases with 93 grains of powder". To that he answered, "about 90%, basically AT the shoulder"... Does the .300 RUM have that kind of case capacity? The reason I asked him in the first place is that I normally load my .300Win Mag with about 67g of 4831 behind 168g projos (target loads) and I was surprised to see 93 grains of WHATEVER going into a .300RUM behind 200g projos...! In my .50 BMG rifles, I am only loading between 230g & 240g of powder behind 800g solid projos... 93g seemed like a LOT for a .300 at the time (I guess it was! LOL). Even if he did have a few extra grains in the case.. That in itself shouldn't have made such a violent detonation.. I would think he would have blown a primer or something like that way before KABOOM...? I don't usually push the "max load +" envelope when reloading so I could be wrong on that... | |||
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Having been involved in product liability law suits. I would suspect the tact for the plantiffs counsel would be convincing a jury the mfg could have used better materials, design, and venting system preventing such catostorphies thus reducing injury to innocent parties. Personally I don't think it would be that difficult. Many cases are settled out of court due to implications of recall etc. Remember the Remington shotgun barrels. | |||
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I've been using 180 & 200grn bullets in my 300RUM. The most powder I've put in a case was 100 grains of Retumbo with 180grn bullet, and that case was full! I believe 100.5grns is max. load with that combo. My guess is that case capacity of this round is around 102grns. | |||
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Hey DemoSam, I'd encourage you to go back and actually "read" the posts from the people who were there. Skip over all the speculation and guessing. The Rifle's Owner had the barrel "off" doing a swap at some point. Once he did that, Savage was no longer Liable. It should be obvious "why" that is true without an explaination. Plus, once you actually "read" the first hand accounts, you will realize Savage should in no way be held accountable for any of this mess anyhow. It apparently did extremely well to hold the First Shot. --- That does not in ANY WAY preclude "PSJ50" from taking the Rifle's Owner to court to recover his medical costs. | |||
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I concurr....there has been nothing presented in any of this (insinuation and innuendo) that I'd believe to be a fault of Savage Arms. Their attempt to manufacture a CRF bolt could be labeled as rediculous but certainly not unsafe. Any attempt to slander the manufacturer in this event is founded on nothing that has been discussed on this forum. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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No Way Savage has any liability,..as handloading by it's very definition releives the coprorate lawyers of the burden of proof. Even if the action was in some way at fault,..try proving that and then convincing someone that your handload was not part of the reaction. Especially since they were in your posession after the incident. I am interested out of curiosity as to the cause,..the liability is clear to me. I only hope to never make a mistake of these proportions through carelessness. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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I'm not speculating and certainly not picking on or finding fault with Savage Arms or other OEM's. Why did Bushmaster pay the sniper victims & families My point is certain facts don't matter. An innocent bystander was injured both the operator of said device, range owner and OEM of said device in my opinion could all be sued sucessfully. It has nothing to do with me picking on a particular manufacturer. I have worked for several OEM's and its not just the Arms companies being attacked. We are seing OEM's trying to put electronic identification on handguns etc for similar reasons. I get phone calls from attorneys asking advise on machinery design for purpose of law suits. Typically they want to know how to build a better mouse trap and use that knowledge against an OEM and offer good pay depending on how deep the plaintiffs pockets are. Could an action be designed to take a case full of RL-22 or RL-25 behind said bullet and not split in two causing injury? Or not fail with 3.5 grains over a documented load in a reloading manual? Is "reloading" a common practice and is XXX arms company aware? What design features does this rifle or others incorporate to prevent a reload overload? Why can you take said barrel off and adjust headspace? Is there a wrench sold to the general public available for such? What documentation is provided for such adjustments? Why aren't better mechanisms in place to prevent the action from failing in case of overcharge? Why would you use X stainless alloy when there are stronger alloys available? Is there a shield between shooting benches/locations to protect innocent bystanders? The list goes on and I'm only making a point not establishing fault. I'm surprised we can still buy components. | |||
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Can this be documented.....can you show evidence of this???? I seriously doubt that there's a particle of truth here!!!!! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Look Shooters/Hand loaders this topic has been totally exhausted. End it! Its over I'm sure this idiot won't do it again. As for me I'm going never take any thing for granted.Most I've ever done is blow a few primers and a bunch of shinny ejector marks.An extra 100FPS is worht less.If you can't hit its your shooting skills not lack of MV. Dang enough already! How does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but looses his soul | |||
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Once again Vapodog hits it 10X. I remember "belk" offering similar Ultra-Liberal Radical-Leftist thoughts. | |||
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I have read and watched and learned from this thread. First: My congratulations to the injured gentleman for being constructive, forthcoming, patient, and truly an example of what good behavior is all about. Second: If it were me, I would invite myself over to said friends house, and take apart a handload or two, together. He was your GUEST at the range. He owes you that courtesy. Check what kind of notes and records are kept. Third: I would keep track of all medical receipts. obvious reasons. You do not need a lawyer involved for your friend to provide for what he owes you cause he caused your injuries. negligent or not, he pulled the trigger and it affected both of you, as well as others IIRC. Fourth: I would wonder if the following occurred: What else may have caused an unsafe condition in the action? How about the barrel being off? why was it removed, what wsa done to it when it was off? why was it rethreaded? was it properly threaded? Was it REALLY tightened to spec, to proper torque? was it checked with a torque wrench to specification, or just a pipewrench cheater to get it REALLY tight? A barrel could act as a wedge driven into the action if torqued too tightly. The barrel itself could have been swaged too tightly in the chamber area if it were torqued too tightly. could have maybe even split the action internally without damaging the threads? or just weakened the action so it would split later. If the headspace were too tight, or if any metal were removed from the barrel or the action mating plane, then the chamber shortens. Was teh chamber reamed to off spec neck diameter? PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART, but I do not buy a wrong powder, wrong bullet, or even too hot loads, since the chrono was 3100 fps. First bullet fired well and good. A crush fit brass is nothing strange to target shooters that neck size brass. Wrong brass, wrong type of brass with smaller case capacity than prior experience, maybe a case that had some foreign matter taking up space in it. maybe a second bullet dropped inside the case? maybe a wrinkled case neck from crimping? I know I made some of these types of mistakes early on, and this GUEST sounds like the type of envelope pusher that just might wrench it tighter without knowing consequences. Crimping is an art, with only about 2 or 3 thousandths difference in case length between a perfect crimp, and a botched crimp or collapsed shoulder/neck. Had the crimper ever been used before? look at the other loads, and mike the necks of each. look for signs of neck diamters. Could the overall length been too long for the chamber forcing a jammed land situation? the answer is on his bench if the stuff is still there. I believe, based on the case still in the chamber, that it is related to something in the neck and throat chamber area. Again, if it were me, I would invite myself over to the friend and guests house and together, take the case out of the barrel. I would do it mano y mano, without prejudice, and just your friend and you alone as a learning experience. You may both benefit from the experience, as may those of us here on board that wish to avoid similar mistakes. If he refuses you this courtesy, I would consult with appropriate advisors, and the friendship would be over. Jameister | |||
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Sorry for coming in late to this last group of postings all... HotCore, I mentioned that my friend threaded the barrel for a muzzle brake, but I believe that he did this with the barrel on the action... As far as I know, the barreled action on the rifle that blew up is 100% Savage assembled & chambered. The only thing he recently did was attach a new McMillan stock... While I "realistically" think that Savage is probably well "covered" by the legal disclaimers that all gun manufacturers include in owners manuals regarding reloads, I do feel the Demo Sam is probably correct also (unfortunately?)... Manufacturers are ALWAYS getting drawn into aguements on product liability issues where there often is no "realistic" reason for them to be there.. Blame who you want, call it whoevers fault, but Demo does make a valid point here, like it or not... And, while I do not have the paperwork in front of me to verify this, I think Demo is also correct about the Bushmaster/sniper reference that he cited.. I beleive that they DID indeed end up paying out a fairly substancial sum of money in the DC sniper case just to keep them out of court... Like it or not, right or not, I DO think that IS the truth... It's a great world we live in eh? I am going to submit my pictures to Savage today and ask them for some information regarding this action.... I'll let y'all know what they say.. Jameister, I think I'll be doing exactly what you say soon enough... I know my friend is still planning on going elk hunting this weekend, so I'll have to make time for us to get together this week if he can.... I agree with your synopsis on where to look for the causes of this KABOOM... | |||
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Hello the campfire: I doubt that WE will ever know what caused the failure of this rifle. I have seen a number of thories presented and all of them have a great deal of merit; too much powder, bore obstruction, headspace, too long cases, a failure of the rifle it self. Only one thing is clear, this was a dangerous situation. If it were the resuly of careless reloading, then the reloader is to blame. I would discourage him from reloading until he gets serious about safety, for the sake of the other people around, not to mention himself. If it were the rifle itself, then other Savages need to be examined to see if there is an on going problem such as Sako had several months ago. I suspect a combination of the two. A weak receiver and a hot load. I can not look at the remains and tell what happened. I suspect that it will take fairly extensive testing to establish the root cause. Savage is the one to do this. They have the expertese and the equipment. Most of us do not. Name calling and litigation threats are of no use at this point. Safety is. We and Savage need to know if there is a problem that threatens other shooters. Depending on what the testing shows, Savage may need to recall a batch of rifles. Judge Sharpe Is it safe to let for a 58 year old man run around in the woods unsupervised with a high powered rifle? | |||
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Absolutely pitiful that Bushmaster would be subjected to such improper accountability. As we all know, the "Responsibility" lies completely with the two murderers. I'm still skeptical that this could have happened. If you all are not aware of it, if "True", those Legal costs will have to be passed along to us consumers and you only have the DEMOCRATS to thank for it. Pitiful! Just noticed in the NRA American Hunter that "my NRA" managed to ram through Legislation which will totally prevent the possibility of that kind of fiasco from ever happening in the future. | |||
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Hey DemoSam, Just went back and pulled the above quote and it appears I'm the one who should have gone back and re-read the posts from the people who were there - NOT YOU. As close as the tolerances must be for a Muzzle Brake to work properly, and as precise as the CenterLine of the Muzzle Brake must align with the CenterLine of the Bore(not the Barrel), I just can't imagine a Muzzle Brake being attached to a barrel which is still attached to a Receiver. The Bore CenterLine must be located and the portion of the Barrel which will be threaded must be squared to the Bore CenterLine. I don't see how this can be done with enough precision, if not done on a Lathe. --- Anyway, I stand corrected and wish you all the very best "speculating". | |||
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we have gotten over 100grs into a 7mmRUM (same case) of H870. I think we got to like 103gr's with no pressure (I suspect the batch of powder as being bad with deteriorated burn rate). I have a MATCH chamber 300RUM which puts the 200gr pill at or even a tad below the neck/shoulder junction, and 88.5gr's of H1000 was the max. Now jumping up to RL25 (slower burn rate) and considering my tight chamber against a bigger factory chamber with no doubt a longer throat,..I fail to see that even 93gr's should have blown that rifle. A locked bolt maybe,..but not an action failure. I would bet I could get close to that charge in a much tigher chamber with H1000 before I blew mine up. However, that is a foregone conclusion. I would not at all be suprised that along with an overly long case, that the powder was really something in the RL22 or even 4831 or 4350 range. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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Ok this is what were all going to do. Were all going to pool our money and pay for a lab and a private eye to investigate.Do any of you remember "Rockferd Files"? Well lets give him a call see if he can fit us into his schedual.Ok the Lab, doesn't the US are force have a lab called Operation "blue book" They'll be unbiased. How does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but looses his soul | |||
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If your going to ring Jim Rockford you'd best have a witty little message for his answering mechine. I've never heard the messages yet. . . too much shooting without plugs.  John L> | |||
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The Settlement used to be on Bushmasters site which is where I first read about it. Here is a link that references such also the Brady Campaign has some info. Read it and weep so to speak. This is what we live with today. I don't agree with any of it, and am only making a point. Vapdog do you really think I would mislead the forum? http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0%...1%2C574555%2C00.html | |||
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Thanks Demo for finding that... I knew I also had seen it somewhere but I couldn't re-find that... You all have to remember that there are laws on the books in DC too, where ANY gun manufacturer is automatically resonsible for ANY misuse of thier products... This is why we need to get on the Senates A$$ and get them to pass S397 that may go into consideration as soon as TOMORROW... Call your Senators... | |||
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Believe you have it backwards PJS50 I believe the senate passed it and its going to the house. It protects against the criminal use of the product as I understand it. http://www.nssf.org/news/fromBP.cfm?BPseq=583&AoI=generic | |||
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"Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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OOOOPPPSS! My BAD.. Demo's right, S397 is going to the HOUSE not the Senate... What's really the difference between the 2 besides that there are more Elitist Jerks in the "House" than the "senate"... LOL... | |||
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Are any of you still out there? I have one more clue that has come to light recently... The shooter of the RUM had the barrel's chamber area EDM cut open to expose the chamber/throat of the bore... He said that there was a "ring of copper or brass in the throat of the bore" after the explosion (remember, the bullet left the barrel)... Unfortunately, even though I have the rest of the gun now, the barrel was thrown out after inspection (Which I told him NOT to do)... I speculate that the copper or brass was a residual left by the first round fired, and when he forced the second round into the chamber, it essentially made a forced fit into the throat and/or forced the second rounds projectile back into the case, making an already "hot" load a "hot & compressed" load with ZERO freebore to help reduce some chamber pressure.... My questions are: 1). can improper headspace cause a "ring" of projo jacket or case neck to be left int the throat as described above? 2). I know it wouldn't take much, but could this ring be a leftover from improper crimp on the non-cannelure projo, or just be residue from an improperly/not chamfered case during reloading? I have seen brass from a case-neck shed "rings" of material when being handled just prior to chamfering... Any thoughts? | |||
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Headspace issues both long and short are not likely candidates as the cause IMO
IMO this too is unlikely. Possible?....yes, but not likely. This has real possibilities. FYI the alloys of guilding metal and casing are different....the case usually has more zinc than guilding metal of bullet jackets. Possibly a chemist could confirm if the ring of metal is from the bullet or the case. My bets are of the case.....and part of the case was sheared off due to excessive length. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Way TOOOOO many idiots hand load when they should not.. Would be betting on an obstruction of some type or loader error. I shoot both 300 RUM improved and the 338 Lapua Improved---no way without a hammer will the 338 chamber!! One reason I will not shoot at public ranges unless it is an IBS sanctioned match. | |||
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Jorge--PM me and we can talk about this--bet it is a sizing issue... | |||
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ALF is correct. If a case lets go, even with a standard pressure, safe load, it can wreck the gun. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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