Which do you prefer and why?

Just an opinion based on...conjecture...I think the design of the Swift is better for terminal performance if for no other reason than their partition is further forward. Never used one though so that's just theoretical on my part. They are more expensive however, and until I find something to shoot that a Nosler can't handle I'll likely stick with them. Haven't a shred of doubt that the Swift will work, and I know damn sure the Partitions will.

the swift also has a bonded front. Definately a superior bullet for that one in a million chance you might need more than a partition can give. I imagine the swift might have a real world advantage at superultramag impact velocities. The cost difference would only be worth it to me if it shot more accurately than the partition that I wanted to shoot.

Swift A-frames And Nosler Partitions are both "good" bullets, so are the Barnes X/Barnes TSX and Northforks.

I usually use one of these and base my selection on, which one my rifle will shoot the best. If the caliber is to be used for dangerous game I will use the "soft" that has the same POI as my solid.

In my opinion, you really can't go wrong with any of these premium softs! Let your rifle decide which one it likes the best and go with it.

I'm kinda from the same school of thought as MHC_TX. You can add Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Woodleigh's and a hand full of others to the group. Find the one your gun shoots best and go with it.

Geronimo

I tried sopme Woodleighs in my 30-06 and they coated the bore with copper. Maybe they were from a batch with soft jackets, but I won't be using them again.

I soot 'em both. But I lean towards the A-Frame. the fact that the Swift holds together appeals to me.

But the neither has failed me if I do my part.

-Steve

IMHO--I'd go with which ever is more accurate but I believe the swift is the tougher of the two. If I expected possibly long shots I would lean towards the partition...if I thought there was a good chance of shooting under 100 yds at a big tough animal the choice would be the swift.
A couple of years ago I shot a caribou with an A-frame and pulled the shot and it went right through the stomach right after he had finished breakfast at about 9 in the morning. When I pulled the "internals" out the stomach was totally intact with a 1.5" "twisted plug" of green material stuck in the offside of the stomach. Absolutely no contamination of the rest of the cavity. CAN YOU IMAGINE....the mess I would have had with some of the fragile bullets out there on the market that sometimes become a "mini hand grenade"?

depends on the game, for light constructed animals I prefer nosler, for heavier the swift. (i.e. leopards get noslers, buff get swifts)

I've been shooting the Swift A-Frames in my .338 Win Mag. for several years now and have taken a few elk and a couple caribou with them. A nice bull elk and carribou along with 3-4 cows, not a lot, but enough I've formed a couple opinions. They are hell-bent-for-stout, of the two or three I did recover, they retained 96% to 98% of their weight and mushroomed perfectly. Most of the time they pass through. I would agree with the general concensus that they are overkill for deer sized game, although they will do the trick, but they are excellent on elk. I had a few Nosler Partition's blow up on me with my .338 and 7mag and decided to try the Swifts after meeting the owner at a RMEF elk show where he gave me several freebies to try. I get just as accurate results with the Swifts as the Nosler's and haven't discovered any other ill effects after approx. 200 rounds in my .338.

Woody

I've had very good success with the A-Frames and on my last plains game safari I used them exclusively. They just work and are the most accurate bullet I've used.....better than the Nosler Partitions.

The Nosler is famous for shedding the core in it's front cavity and this leads to reduced penetration. The A-Frame is bonded and they penetrate better as a result.

Down side is that the A-Frames are a lot more $$$$$ than the Partitions and the partitions have no shortage of history as being a good performer. You can find a better bullet but there's no such thing as "deader".

All in all I still go with the A-Frames even at the extra cost as I find them extremely accurate in most of my guns andthey're of the finest design I know of.

I love my NPs, it's all I hunt with. If I decide on shooting the Swift, I would concider dropping a bullet wt. as they hold together much better than the NP. Kind of wish Nosler would make a bonded core NP instead of the PG.

quote:

Kind of wish Nosler would make a bonded core NP instead of the PG.

I suspect Swift would consider that a matter of patent infringement.

I doubt they would since Swift introduced the Scirrocco before the others did. 'Course Bitteroot was ahead of all of 'em. Bonding the front core of the PT would not infringe on Swift, building an identical bullet probably would.

SWIFT A-FRAME.
I hunt alot, Africa every year and all of North America. I have never had a problem with a SWIFT A-Frame bullet. I once had a loading problem and the "owner" of the company Bill Huber personally sent an hour of his time and even gave me his home phone number in case I needed to call after hours. I don't think you will get that kind of service frim Nosler. CHEERS

Who is Course Bitteroot?Who is credited for the a-frame bullet design and construction.What are this bullets origins?What role did bill Hober play in it's origins?

I compared them both in Africa from .375 H&Hs: the 300 grain Nosler Partition retained about 85% by weight; and the 300 grain Swift A-Frame retained about 94%. Mostly the NPs exit.

Nosler does not want to bond the front core of the Partition bullet, this would remove part of the sublety of the design. You want expansion in the front to create a wider wound channel, and loss of the front core is OK as long as the rear core keeps going in a straight line and exits.

jim

Even though I get great accuracy with NPs, the Aframe is definitely a better overall bullet for bigger animals, and it is an extraordinarily concentric bullet at that. Same with the Scirocco.

I've got a friend that has a 300WM, he shoots the 200 Aframe in Rem Safari ammo. Factory stuff shoots so good, no matter the lot number, it makes a handloader cry. (Browning Abolt, by the way).

Doc,do you get better accuracy with the A-frames or NP'S?

I'll never complain about my NP loads but I do not load them for supreme accuracy anyway. I load them for shots under 200 yards and strive for less than 1".

However, the AFrame is IMO, easier to work with, and get better groups, and are overall less picky. There's no denying the history of NPs, but if I had to pick one and didn't mind the expense, it would be AFrames hands down. AND, I'd treat them like I do my TSX bullets...aim for bone and smash it. It doesn't matter that the front core is bonded, it is still soft lead and opens readily and quickly. Partitions kill like crazy, but some folks seem to get dissapointed when the core separates.

Quite frankly, I don't really give a toss what the bullet looks like so long as the game is down. I'd say there's a LOT more hunters out there that have no clue of the discussions that take place on sites like this. They have a rifle, some accurate factory loads, and they go kill. Bullet performance is not even negotiable. Either you hit it and it died or you missed...that is the extent of the mentality of, probably most, rifle hunters. Certainly not stupidity, just innocent ignorance...and guess what, they'll never know the difference, and most likely never care. That's why there's still fellas in Tucson killing Coues deer at 200 yards with 30-30's.

I'd say most of us here would have our jaws drop if someone told us that was a great western rifle for medium to long shots. Even me! I say, give me my 270!

(Geez, I ramble don't I)??

I think that Lee Reid started Swift and designed the A-Frame. Bill Huber, formerly of Pepsi-Cola, I think, bought into the company, injected some cash and marketing expertise.

I prefer the Swift but only if my gun shoots them as well or better than Partitions. And if forced to shoot Partitions, I wouldn't cry about it.

Doc,are TSX bullets more or less accurate than A-frames?

The TSX is by far THE most accurate hunting bullet I have ever had the pleasure to shoot. Btips come in second, Aframes third.

I am not a fan of the New Barnes bullets, The originals which are impossible to get nowdays were great though.

The best advice given was work with the above brands and see what works best in your rifle. I have seen ( and own ) rifles that just don't like partions ( usually a candidate for the sale table unless I find a suitable replacement ). I think if you work with 10 rifles you will find that all have personalities so to speak and will favor one bullet over the other. I would just work with what your rifle likes and go from there.

This has zip bearing on DG and African hunts, different subject entirely, I am talking N America, and African plains game application. Pick the Buff and Elephant hunters brains on bullets suitable for those applications, as I am neither knowledgable and they have different criteria for bullet performance on these applications.

Schromf,why don't you like the new Barnes bullets?

Doc,do have a load for the TSX in 300 winmag.That is 180 or 165g.I don't have the Barnes manuel.

quote:

Schromf,why don't you like the new Barnes bullets?

I used Barnes originals for years, I actually liked them better than partitions. Then Barnes got a new idea and brought out the "X" bullets, while prwetty quickly discontinueing the orginals.

I bought in a bought several boxes. They shot like crap, and I am not talking about a single box or caliber. I figured that the old great names in bullets Barnes wasn't the issue and I went through about a year of farting around with the then new "X" bullets.

In simple terms after a year of fiddling around I scarapped the X bullets. I never got a single good load out of about 10 boxes of them. They shot like crap, I was even having keyholing issues.

Fast forward to a few years ago and Barnes redesigned their crappy X bullets and all is supposed to be forgiven. BS... It also pisses me off that I get the marketing shpeal when I look at there website and I quote:

"This is the bullet that started it all. Produced by pressure forming pure copper tubing around a pure lead core, this highly reliable bullet was the first custom bullet available to American handloaders. Introduced in 1939, it was long the favorite of professional hunters who demanded performance they could depend on, each and every time. On impact, Barnes's Original bullets typically expand to more than 200 percent of their original diameter and retain 70 to 90 percent of their original weight.

The Barnes Original is a true hunting bullet generations of sportsmen have relied on.Available in a full range of rifle and handgun calibers for hunting almost any kind of game."

Problem is unless your into 6mm or flat nosed lever action ballon guns they don't make them any more.

They have pretty much lost my business forever. I have switched to Nosler, Swifts, and Woodleigh's and I never bought a single bad box bullets from any of them.

I have a real bad taste about this and just so you guys that never got to shoot the bullets Fred Barnes designed here is a interesting pic:



I think this pic says why I don't like the new bullets.

Sorry I had to edit a few times to get the pic working.

Partitions are good.

A-Frames are better (penetrate deeper).

North Forks are best.

All based on bullets recovered from animals.

quote:

They have pretty much lost my business forever.

This might be a little strong, if they ever bring back even short runs of select bullets I am going to restock. I miss:

175 gr 7mm
250 gr 30 cal, or what I think is a flying frieght train in a 30 mag.

I really think that with some oversized welding rod and my lathe and I could get similar performance to the new "X" bullets. Like I said I am not impressed. A why are they still making a 6mm original?

Neither one!!

A question for you A-Frame theorists, please? Why does it penetrate more than NP? HunterJim, for instance, doesn't appear to think so.

I ask because it would appear to me that the NP, after shedding its forward petals, would experience less resistance than a mushroomed bullet, and would then penetrate more deeply.

I haven't used A-Frames, so it is a question, not a troll. The NPs I've used have always exited, BTW.

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Doc,do have a load for the TSX in 300 winmag.That is 180 or 165g.I don't have the Barnes manuel.

No, sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
A question for you A-Frame theorists, please? Why does it penetrate more than NP? HunterJim, for instance, doesn't appear to think so.

Not sure if I was one of the ones you refer to as a "theorist," but here goes:

I never said the AFrame outpenetrates the NP. I like it because it is pretty much an echo of the NP design but is far more concentric and often more accurate. Many times the NP will exit, actually, for me, better than 90% of the time, but when it does shed it's front core, it can pencil through just like a Barnes X. The AFrame creates a HUGE front diameter mushroom and stays together.

Doc, As a "theorist," yes, you'll do fine. No, I wasn't attributing the deeper penetration comments to you, however. Those came from "500 Grains," and "vapodog," and perhaps others.

I'm not looking for an absolute here, but a model. I'm having trouble visualizing a situation wherein an A-Frame will generally out-penetrate an unemcumbered NP. (Again, this isn't a question as to which makes something "deader," but is rather a general question on penetration.)

I hesitate to qualify the question over concern that the question itself will get buried in answers such as "the game will never know the difference," or "shut up, load NP, and go hunting." Here goes, though. I'm putting together a rifle/cartridge (M70/30-06) for an African plains game trip, and I want penetration for blood trail to aid in following up herd animals that run and trample any existing sign.

Given that, the question is, "if the A-Frame penetrates more, how does it do so?"

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:

Given that, the question is, "if the A-Frame penetrates more, how does it do so?"

Jaywalker

Then the answer is simple. It does not penetrate more. It is an equivical performer, IMO, to the NP, with the NP having a higher incidence of exits, while both will adequately destroy the vitals.

If you desire an exit, it is my opinion that the FailSafe and TSX bullet style bullet have an edge over the NP...while Northforks need no further recommendation. They also speak for themselves.

Never had a failure with either Nosler Partitions or Swift A-frames.

Only recovered two A-frames. One 375/300 fired from a 375 H&H into a gemsbok. Another round completely penetrated. One 458/500 fired from a 460 Wby into an eland at 200 yards was recovered after penetrating lengthwise from a frontal chest shot. Bullet was found in the hip. Once again, another round completely penetrated. PH was concerned that the A-frames were too tough for leopard and wanted me to switch to Hornadys for the cat.

Trying to remember if a Nosler Partition has ever been recovered from an animal. Have some on the mantel so know it's been done. Just can't remember the circumstances right now.

Like them both.

Also never had a problem with Trophy Bonds. They're good too.

Hammer

quote:

"if the A-Frame penetrates more, how does it do so?"

I've taken several (six including Kudu and Gemsbok) big game with the 200 grain .30 cal A-Frame and have never recovered a single bullet.

There's pockets full of spent Nosler Partitions around and these are simply testimony of not having exited.
The A-Frames penetrate better as they retain their weight much better and hense the inertia gained from this drive them deeper.(and thru) game. Nosler's are famous for shedding all the lead in the front partition and hense loosing a lot of weight (inertia).

Some claim that this is by design.....I'm simply not believing this at all. If Nosler knew how to keep this from happening they'd never developed the partition in the first place.

After having said all of this I also need to say that if you use the Nosler product you'll likely do just as well as using A-Frames. Again...there's no such thing as deader.

I am convinced that the accuracy gains I've seen using the A-Frames justify their use and even at the extra cost. They are a very fine choice for big game hunting.

Vapodog,

Have never tested Swifts and Noslers side-by-side. So have no comparable data per se.

Some speculate that the Nosler Partition out penetrates the A-frame because it does blow away the front portion, the metal petals bend back leaving a smaller expanded front than the A-frame, and therefore penetrates deeper. Sort of like an "expanding solid".

Personally, don't know.

Hammer

quote:

Have never tested Swifts and Noslers side-by-side. So have no comparable data per se.

Nor have I...and I agree completely that this is reasonably subjective.

I will add this however...I've seen many photos posted here on AR of Nosler Partitions recovered from game.....I've yet to see anyone at all post a pic of a recovered A-Frame.

Not to forget that a recovered bullet is only from dead game...and that's the goal as I recall.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
.... I will add this however...I've seen many photos posted here on AR of Nosler Partitions recovered from game.....I've yet to see anyone at all post a pic of a recovered A-Frame.

Think I might be able to find the Swift recovered from the eland or the gemsbok. If I do, will post it for you.

Hammer