Because of the thread I initiated concerning the stated load from reloading manuals being too hot in the rifle I was loading for, I began to wonder how many people who reload use a chronograph? I couldn't find a poll on this question, so I decided to start one.

Question:
How many use a chronograph when working up loads?

Choices:
I own a chronograph and use it regularly when working up loads.
I own a chronograph, but rarely use it when working up loads.
I do not own a chronograph.

 

Dear Red C:

I have used a chronograph for all sorts of load development since 1998. I've been reloading since 1977.

I learned more in the first week of using my Oehler 35 chronograph than in the prior 21 years of reloading.

The Standard Deviation and Extreme Spread gave me a better understanding of my group patterns. Also, the velocity helped me understand trajectory, and allowed me to conform my loads to what trajectory I wanted.

The chronograph also defined differences in barrels and chambers, and their effect on velocity.

Altogether an invaluable tool. I rarely go to the range without it.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Used 3 different chronographs over 20 years or so. FINALLY dawned on me it was a total waste of time, because it only tells Velocity.

There is not a single one made which can be used "outside of a Lab Environment and has been properly Calibrated with Calibration Ammo" that tells anything about Pressure, only Velocity. Anyone thinking they can tell what the Pressure is by looking at a Velocity is badly mistaken.

But for those you you who actually believe you can tell what the Pressure is by looking at the Velocity - Best of Luck to you.

With my chronograph results and the use of the JMB ballistics site I am able to develop "drop charts" with click adjustments that I have found to be accurate out to 600yds.
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!

After I got mine I was surprised to see almost all of my loads were slower than "book".
It is a useful tool in calculating downrange ballistics.....nothing more.

I threw my chronograph away...

Hot Core told me I didn't need it anymore....

So I just guess at velocity, just like he does...

The Oehler 35 is a joy. The 3 previous chronies were a PITA. roger

My name is John and I am a chronograph user.

When you cut through all of the bullshit of Jeffo and HC, the fact remains that it's neat as hell to know how fast your bullets are going.

Who ever said that a chronograph measures pressure? Wrong tool for the job! What it does is measure velocity and with a valid statistical sample, it will give you an idea of your standard deviation and extreme spread which is useful in calculating down range ballistics.
Or you can just load, shoot and hope like some prefer to do

I own one but use it to confirm final velocity of most accurate load developed so I voted B. I am kinda anal about accuracy over velocity and it is not really practical to be checking velocity all the time during load development.

Own, use but not to "develop" only check loads.

I shot my first one.....missed it so much I bought a second one.....

I just finished working up a load for my .35 Whelen.....I worked up a load with Varget and the velocity wasn't to my expectations so I worked up a load with RL-15.....velocity still wasn't what I was looking for but met my minimum expectations.....accuracy was good so I stayed at the 59 grains mark.

A chrony isn't necessary at all.....I loaded for thirty years without one....but like the additional data! It sure don't hurt at all!

I fall under category two after 44 years of loading I've concerned myself more with hitting the mark

rather than looking at velocity stats . Bottom line if any of you are hung up on producing

published velocity data on various loads ; See some one for treatment !.

Checking cases and primers POI absolutely necessary fiddling with questionable gadgets not so much .

Kind of reminds me of the Movie Tin Cup and all that Golf crap do dads I'll pass MOST OF THE TIME !.

Published data is IDEAL with Specialized chambers barrels Etc. Not many Rifles are going to meet

that criteria , an over the years I've seen a few individual actually do MORE HARM than good ; trying to

reach those posted numbers . Animals DON'T CARE if it's 200 FPS or 20 FPS faster or slower DEAD IS DEAD !.

ACCURACY IS PRIORITY ONE other wise WHY BOTHER RELOADING !!!.

I just had to have a chrono when they first came out. I even made one before that (ballistic pendulum).

These days its just a bother.

quote:

With my chronograph results and the use of the JMB ballistics site I am able to develop "drop charts" with click adjustments that I have found to be accurate out to 600yds.
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!

My chronograph data book is over 4 inches thick. I also use JBM ballistics, but I usually run my charts out to 1000 yards at 25 yard increments.

Anyone who thinks less info is better needs their head examined.

each piece of equipment in the shooting game is designed to give some information. the human brain is the item that puts all the pieces together. course i understand if you can't put it all together you probably can't shoot either.

I have one, but I find it is a pain in the tokhus to set it up so that you don't shoot it. So I hit upon the idea of clipping a piece of paper to the arms and putting a spot on it that is in direct line with a target at about 50 yards away. You adjust your rest and bag, and the tripod upon which the chrono sets to have an in-chamber laser hit the spot and the target. When the laser is about four to five inches above the body of the chrony, you will know you won't shoot your chrony.

I like the chrony for knowing how fast my bullets are going. Knowing that, you can be sure you're not getting pressures that are too high. And I can plot the trajectory with a neato program available to paid members on ammoguide.com...

Anyone who wants to get maximum / optimum results with reloading MUST use a Chronograph. It is IRRESPONSIBLE not to do so IMHO. If you do not use a Chronograph, then just stick to starting loads or factory ammo.

So, right. I have a Chrony and I use it.

BUT! It's a question of load development. There are some loads I don't bother to chrony - I know they are low pressure and they group fine. Range loads, if you will. Good practice, no worries about pressure.

On the other hand, I DO want to know what my loads are doing, velocity-wise. I want to know if that load is 2550 or 2400 - that makes a difference beyond 250 yards. IE: what does 75.0 gr. of H4350 vs. 80.0 gr. of H4350 do with a 300 gr. Sierra GK in my .375 H&H.

It won't tell yo anything about pressure. It does tell you something about downrange performance.

The stupidity of all of this is that I'm more likely to "heartbeat" or flinch a shot off for a 2" difference that velocity variation makes at 300 yards.

Still, I can drive myself nuts nonetheless.

Have one and use it every time I work up a load. Why would you not use an added confirmation that what you expect is what you have. Chasing velocity is not necessarily a good practice but knowing what you have for certain is always good.

I use mine every time I shoot. My shooting range is the pipeline on my land behind my house so it's not much bother to set it up. It's not like a public range where you can only go in front of the line every 15 minutes or so. With so much book data being written by lawyers nowadays I've found that velocities can sometimes be off by 2-300 fps from claimed values. The chronograph seperates the BS from the facts. I'm not interested in shooting my 7mm rem mag at 7x57 velocities even if the accuracy is great. If I wanted a 7x57 then I'd buy one.

Its also useful for comparing powder lots and powders of different brand thats supposed to be similar or the same powder, different powders or any other variable. Or when loading for some unusual cartridge or combination and you want to stop at your desired velocity rather than keep adding powder until you see pressuresigns. I prefer enough measured by chrony over proved by primerpockets. And for putting into your note tables so you dont have to be frustrated that you didnt get the velocities later on. I see a lot of use for it.

What load and velocity did you end up with for the 35 Whelen Vapodog?

I ended up with 58 grs of the Reloder15 equivalent, 2565 fps, Hornady 250 Spirepoint and COL 83 mm. My dealer was out of Accubonds but I think moose should worry anyway.

I was doing a lot of Pdog shooting with a 22-250. I had my ideal load using H380. Over the course of the summer, throat erosion would become a factor. Each spring, I would re-set my COL and then add small amounts of H380 until, using a Chrony, my velocity was back up to my oringinal speed. And the rifle would shoot to just about the same spot. The final load I used, after doing this several times, was well beyond what the book said was max but the extra room that out setting the bullet gave me kept me within pressure limits. My Chrony told me so.

I find it curious that some of the same people who will almost come to blows arguing the ballistic superiority of one or the other of the 6.5x55 vs. the .260 Rem, or perhaps the .270 Win vs. the .280 Rem, will eschew the use of a chronograph by saying that 200 fps doesn't matter. Maybe it doesn't, but then why take such a vehement position on the performance of your favorite cartridge vs. one of its close competitors?

The sole function of a gun is to impart velocity (and direction) to a bullet. Failing to know (within some reasonable percentage) the velocity which is imparted seems to greatly diminsh the importance of that velocity -- almost as much so as failing to know the direction in which the bullet is imparted said velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
The final load I used, ... was well beyond what the book said was max but the extra room that out setting the bullet gave me kept me within pressure limits. My Chrony told me so.

I am asking a serious question, are you using a ba;;astics lab/rsi pressure trace that measures pressure? I had the RSI (the guages proved to be more bother than I had thought), and it gave me pressure readings ... my chronograph always told me velocity ...

Does your chrony also measure pressure? If so, which model are you using? an Oehler?

I agree with Yale! I had been loading for years before, with my best buddy, and one day we decided to invest in a chronograph. In my opinion, it's the best addition to our reloading practice we have ever made.

While we are not necessarily "velocity freaks", it's important to know what the trajectory with a given load, also what is the extreme spread. I will always choose the best groups, that produce the highest velocities, in general. The cronograph, over the years has helped me solve many problems as well. Also, makes me more confident, knowing what my situation is at various ranges.

Jerry

I don't use my Chrono much.
When it did work, it made picking loads much easier.

I only use mine after I find a favorite load at 100 yds.Some have been a whole lot faster/slower than expected.

Trying to do load development without a chrony is just guess work. I love the Oehler 35P I bought several years ago. The load statistics are much more important than the velocity. I shoot thousands of rounds of high power rifle a year, and 90% through the chrony. I'm not trying to develop the hottest load, but the most accurate load that is sufficiently fast.

I load for a lot of rifles. One example: I load for 5 differnt 30.06's, used by myself, wife, and kids. The same load will give velocity averages in the different rifles of over 200 fps. But almost across the board, the SD is very low - in the single digits. All shoot the load very accurately. But the drop chart for the one rifle shooting 250 fps slower than the others is quite different. And it tells me something about the bore in that rifle as I watch the velocity drop further with time. There is a lot more to chrony's than just velocity....

Bill

Now that model is inaccurate

quote:

While we are not necessarily "velocity freaks", it's important to know what the trajectory with a given load, also what is the extreme spread. I will always choose the best groups, that produce the highest velocities, in general. The cronograph, over the years has helped me solve many problems as well. Also, makes me more confident, knowing what my situation is at various ranges.

also what is the extreme spread . WHY ? over the years has helped me solve many problems as well .


What type of problems ? knowing what my situation is at various ranges

I reload an practice using my loads at various ranges ,so I know exactly what my situation calls for .

An unless it's an Oehler System 43 it's not going to indicate anything regarding pressure .

Most all units use a similar declaimer as below .

Velocity readings obtained with the Pro-Tach Chronograph should not be used to obtain cartridge combustion pressure.

I'm not advocating the units aren't useful just don't be hung up on them is my point .

Several years back I extra carefully reloaded # 32 rounds and then my normal routine of reloading .

15 FPS extreme spread and the absolutely worst grouping in memory .

My two best groups using bulk factory bullets 55 Grain with extreme spread of 122 FPS ( I can see BR guys

knuckles turning white over those numbers ) Using a BushMaster XM15 A2-20" .224 # 15 counted rounds into

.377" @ 100/M .

2 months later same rifle using the same powder an a slightly different load with Match bullets of 69 grains

.267" . Extreme spread of 114 an the reason I know this is because I always load Twice as much as I use and

slipped them through the chrony when I got home .

One Fouling shot each time ,with NO Barrel cleaning between shooting matches .

Why do I remember these exact loads and spreads ; I won both High power matches and was DUMBFOUNDED

to explain the number spreads !!!. I took out the X ring an part of the 9 upper right quadrant

and in the best grouping I've personally done .267" using Sierra 69 Match , I took out the left center

X an just touched the 9 ring . Both times with 26-32 shooters present and participating .

Numbers have relationships and I'll be the first to admit that , but there's no rhyme or reason too the above.

In case any of you were wondering about the bunch with 15 FPS extreme spread, same powder same rifle same

bullets 1.32" !. Which is decent but nowhere near where I needed too be for match shooting .

Someone told me Chrome lined bores were crappy for accuracy to. I listened but not for long !!!.

In my opinion, the chronograph is one of the most important tools for a reloader to have. This is especially true for any one who is deviating from "book load" specifications. However, like any measuring device, it is limited by the user's ability to interpret and use the data in a meaningful way. I would never be without one.

Wes

Have one... use it all the time..... wouldn't shoot without it.

Many of my reloading buddies are anxious to know their true velocity from the homemade loads and usually end up disappointed in that the velocity is almost always slower than the "book".

Great for developing the consistency and velocity of your loads to more correctly know the ballistic flight of your bullet. Confirm that info with some extended range target work and you are ready to go.

If you are shooting in those eastern woods at 100 yards or less from a tree stand, they might not be that valuable to you. Out in the West where the ranges can stretch out there they are invaluable.

Every time I think I need one... I have trouble justifying the extra hassle and expense. I've used a couple belonging to friends, but really couldn't figure out how it was of any advantage.

When working up loads I consult several books (sure they can be WAY off) then work up the load watching pressure signs. When the group is acceptable at 100 yards, I stretch it out. Sometimes to 300 yards. If it's still grouping fine and the trajectory is reasonable, I don't know how it would improve my life to also know the velocity.

In fact I would venture to guess that many people who know their exact velocity could probably be more efficient in the field by checking the trajectory and longer range groupings rather than worrying so much about standard deviations near the muzzle.

As long as it's safe, I'm all about keeping the reloading simple. That's why I rarely tumble brass either. No game animals have ever complained about the velocity of my loads or shininess of my cases.

btdt!

quote:

Originally posted by Zeke:

A while back I worked up a load for a 6mm Remington. I noticed that as I added powder the velocity didn't go up much.....I was using IMR-4831 at the time and decided to switch to Win Supreme 780 and started over. It seemed to me that I actually gained 185 FPS by doing so and at the same (apparent) pressure.

Without a chronograph I'd not have known this.

Time for my lame story. Many years ago Midway was having a sale on chronographs so I bought one. Prior to me owning one, there seemed to always be someone at the range I knew who had one so we just shot together.

My original reason for having one had nothing to do with load development etc., as nothing made sense to me other than getting good repeatable groups at the range where I shot at 100 & 200 yards. I never shot beyond that anyway in my hunting spots so trajectory was of no significance. So I was only curious as to how fast my loads were compared to book. That's it. I was disappointed to see that the bulk of my loads were roughly 100-200 fps or just under than all the books!

I didn't use a chrony for a long time after I bought one, but got it back out to aid with drop charts and turrets for dialing in yardage. It is a useful tool if you want to know velocity.

It is also my understanding that it is useful if you believe in barrel break-in. It is used to monitor velocity swings shot after shot, and some opine that you will know your barrel is "broken in" when velocity becomes more stable with carefully handloaded ammo. My question to that is what if that load in that rifle isn't a good producer of consistency anyway. I've never used it for that purpose so I don't know. Just regurgitating what I've heard.

When I started handloading 15 yrs ago I always thought I would end up getting a chronograph eventually. But, I've never felt the need for one. When I work up a load I stick to reliable published sources and I don't exceed the data. I am looking for the best group for each cartridge I load. I take the recipe that produces the best group, load a bunch, and confirm group size over several more trips to the range. Then, I practice at all ranges at which I expect to be hunting, and get an idea of my ballistic performance in the field, not off a computer screen. I may write my findings on a piece of blue masking tape and stick it to the side of my stock. I take it as given that I am not getting the velocities published in the loading manuals. The rifles I hunt with most often are CZ fullstocks that have 20.5" barrels anyway. The deer, hogs, coyotes, bobcats, (and hopefully the plains game in Namibia next year) never seem to realize that I've shot them with un-chronographed loads. They just die. We eat plenty of venison and wild pork all year long. I have never been in a situation where I said, "Dang it, I wish I had chronographed that load before I shot! I just see a chronograph as something else I have to keep track of, load into and out of the truck, and set up and take down at the range. I would probably shoot a hole in it anyway.

These replies are very interesting. I have really enjoyed the responses, thus far, to this poll.

I know a guy who thinks he's a real reloading expert and who wouldn't own a "lousy" 270 Winchester because it is "underpowered" - according to him. He will only own a 7MM RemMag.
Well he came to my place with his 7MM Mag. and his beloved 140 gr. Nos. Ballistic Tips. (which is another story). We run his 7mag over my chrony and not a one of his 140 gr. went over 3030 fps. We shoot one of my three 270 Winnies with 140 grainers and they average 3030 fps. He's burning more powder, feeling more recoil and getting equal or less perforemance. What a joke!
Yes, the chronograph is a very useful tool. Necessary, not really, if the truth doesn't matter to you.

Doc: Who mentioned anything about pressure? Not me! I can use strain gauges, if I find pressure to be of a concern, to me it's not!! Especially with high power cartridges, using slow powders. until I get near the top of the published loads, or my rifle or cases give me an indication of pressure. As to extreme spreads:it surely lets me rule out certain powders quickly, cause the smallest groups are my goal, and with high ES'S tight groups won't happen. For years, I assumed the velocities, and this is directed at a couple of folks other than Doc, that were published in the manuals, is what I was getting. As Vapo said, once I ran them over the cronograph, I was very surprised, at how different they were from the published data.

Also, If you don't want to shoot your cronograph, get one that has sky screens, and mount them on a tripod. At least if you shoot it, you only brake a screen. And more!! Who can have a problem with anything that helps you learn more, and adds to your hobby? Makes no sense to me.

But all you contrarians out there, always have something to say, now don't you?

Jerry