quote:

find it curious that some of the same people who will almost come to blows arguing the ballistic superiority of one or the other of the 6.5x55 vs. the .260 Rem, or perhaps the .270 Win vs. the .280 Rem, will eschew the use of a chronograph by saying that 200 fps doesn't matter. Maybe it doesn't, but then why take such a vehement position on the performance of your favorite cartridge vs. one of its close competitors?

find it curious that some of the same people who will almost come to blows arguing the ballistic superiority of one or the other of the 6.5x55 vs. the .260 Rem, or perhaps the .270 Win vs. the .280 Rem, will eschew the use of a chronograph by saying that 200 fps doesn't matter. Maybe it doesn't, but then why take such a vehement position on the performance of your favorite cartridge vs. one of its close competitors?


Yep, what' the point in choosing a superior cartridge if you are not feeding it superior ammo.

quote:

Yep, what' the point in choosing a superior cartridge if you are not feeding it superior ammo

Right on Antelope +1.

Jerry

When I was working up a load for my 458 Win Mag I felt I needed a chronograph, as "conventional wisdom" dictated a 500-gr bullet needed to be exiting the barrel at about 2100 fps to be effective against dangerous game, and my son was going to use the rifle on a Cape buffalo hunt I was treating him to as a college graduation present.

So, I bought a cheap Shooting Chrony and got the loads up where they needed to be.

Since my rifle shot sorta "loose," the published velocity tables weren't particularly accurate.

I still use the chronograph occasionally, mostly to check loads with powder that's not listed on a loading chart. For example, I wanted to load my 7x57 with RL-15 and get about 2500-2700 fps with a 150 grain Barnes TTSX, so just today I cronographed five rounds from 38-42 grains. The 41 grain load showed a 2651 fps MV, so that's the one I'll load and group.

The chrony has its place, but I don't use it all the time.

I confess have one and I have used it.
I think it is an absolute must have if you are reloading and or developing loads for a double rifle. You will save $$$ in time and components and you just might get that double to shoot to regulation. I was talking to a friend at the gun show and he wants to develop a nitro for black load for his 500 H&H BPE. If you load some rounds and they don’t group or shoot to regulation it is much easier to know the velocity so you can adjust your load. You have to know where you are then you have a better idea of what to do to get the results you want.
I recently decided to find a load that duplicated Federal Gold Medal .308 Match. I started by shooting some over the chronograph and working up loads that gave me the same velocity and even better sd. The same with 38sp match.
Do I think you have to have one to get accurate reliable ammo? No you can do it using the old try and try again method. I do think it is a valuable tool and I will continue to use mine.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
The final load I used, ... was well beyond what the book said was max but the extra room that out setting the bullet gave me kept me within pressure limits. My Chrony told me so.

I am asking a serious question, are you using a ba;;astics lab/rsi pressure trace that measures pressure? I had the RSI (the guages proved to be more bother than I had thought), and it gave me pressure readings ... my chronograph always told me velocity ...

Does your chrony also measure pressure? If so, which model are you using? an Oehler?

no answer? my goodness, isn't that just rude?

I generally do, and I have an M43 if I get pressure signs.

Rich

Special exception to Jeffo. Why don't you put me on ignore as I have absolutely nothing, not a thing to say to your pompous, dumb ass. Had I thought that you would gain knowledge or could use my methodology to advantage, I would have outlined it. But rather, you were only looking for another opportunity to wax verbose, lengthy, and stupid.
I hope you are smart enough to understand this.

Gentlemen ----- If you don't use a chronograph and are not satisfied with your accuracy with hunting bullets, come shoot with me at my private range. Witness my use of the chronograph, targets shot, loading methods, then decide for yourself what you want to do. If you are satisfied with your accuracy and your methods, you must be doing something right on the one hand, or on the other hand you may be fooling yourself. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Special exception to Jeffo. Why don't you put me on ignore as I have absolutely nothing, not a thing to say to your pompous, dumb ass. Had I thought that you would gain knowledge or could use my methodology to advantage, I would have outlined it. But rather, you were only looking for another opportunity to wax verbose, lengthy, and stupid.
I hope you are smart enough to understand this.

Actually I thought i asked you a very valid question, very nicely, in fact ..

So, what chrono are you using that tells you pressure? an ohler or an RSI?


I had thought you felt acting in the manner that you just replied to me was "rude"

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Yup!

Many have a lot to offer, but if the price of their knowledge is a unlimited amount of sarcastic abuse and belittlement, it's not worth it. IMO

So, how exactly are you meassuring PRESSURE with a chronograph?

as for my relative stupidity, you have had ample opprotunity to present an alternate methodology to reality, i would gladly listen -- when one results into name calling and cursing, I tend to find the other side has run out of knowledge and is trying merely to overwhelm with hostility.

Take you own advice, on several points...
ya'll have a nice day --

and remember, you decided to take this rude and personal - and I have not responded in kind.

You know guys, somehow I believe this has gotten into a pissin match, that isn't going to help anyone. Choose your poison it's ok with me.

If you recall Red was talking about book loads, that were giving him high pressure signs, and he was trying to figure out what might be up. Now, I suggested he cronograph his loads, and compare them to the manual he was using. It is a givin fact, that a published load is going to produce X velocity +or- if the components/firearm are the same or close to what the manual writers used. If one compares that manual load, to his velocities, and his are much higher, the pressure will be up, and it calls for reducing the powder charge. To me very simple. Keep reducing the powder charge, until you get to the velocity/group you want. And that my friends is how you do it!


Jerry

Hey Jerry ; I wasn't picking on you or anyone else . I was genuinely curious as to what type of problems it

helped you solve . Yes I own an have used both of my Chronographs ,I don't use them nearly as much as I once

did especially now days . Not directed at anyone ( I came to the realization for myself years ago

while working for Hercules Powder test equipment was just that TEST EQUIPMENT , an My Rifles didn't match up

so neither did my velocities . An chasing them was futile so I settled on accuracy . Not 3 or 5 rounds but

an average of #3 groups of #5 rounds ,this way I assured myself at whatever range I chose to shoot ;accuracy

out of my Rifles weren't in question . If something was amiss Now the shooter was at fault and I knew whom

to blame !!!.

Antelope Sniper ;

quote:

Yep, what' the point in choosing a superior cartridge if you are not feeding it superior ammo.

Is that in accuracy or velocity ?. What makes one cartridge superior too another ? .

If one's hunting lets say Antelope North American Pronghorn , is a .270 better than a 7 Mag or .280 .300 Mag ?.

I must admit I'm somewhat confused when people insist one cartridge is superior over another .

A superior cartridge IMO; Is one which hits the mark with enough energy so as to stop whatever was shot,

either in it's tracks or for dam sure before it has a chance to close the ground between the shooter and what

was shot . If somebody is hunting Cape Buffalo with a .270 , 7 Mag or .300 Mag I'm not hunting with THEM !.

Bring enough gun too the party hit what you aim for or stay home , Yes I'm OLD School !.

It's never my intentions too pizz on anybody's parade ,an just because I or anyone else posts something

doesn't mean it's written in stone . Reading what others post EVERYBODY LEARNS SOMETHING ,myself included !!!.

quote:

Is that in accuracy or velocity ?.

Both.

Why buy a 7 Mag if you are shooting it at 7mm Mauser velocities. You would be better off with a 7 mauser, less recoil, less powder ect.

One of the first guns we chronographed was a 30.06. Our "max loads" were shooting a 150gr bullet at 2550 fps. That's 300 savage velocites. It I wanted a 150gr bullet at 2500 fps, I'd much rather have a saveage 99 instead of a 30.06 bolt gun. With a change in powder, and some work it's now spitting out a 165gr bullet at 3000 fps with accuracy that is just as good. All thanks to a chronograph.

If you read many of my post, you will see that I like to take full advantage of the equipement at hand. Guys will ask about making a 30.06 AI, or some other AI. I always wonder how many of them are getting all they can out the 30.06 they already have? Most of them, with chronograph, a couple pounds of new powder and some patience can probably get that exta 200 fps out of their current rig, and save all the cost and expence of reaming a chamber. But if you don't have a chronograph, you will never know...

quote:
Is that in accuracy or velocity ?.


Both.

Here again +2. Besides, don't you guys want to really know what your ammo is doing. I find, that I will get a good group, near the lowest powder charge, and as I increase the charge, the groups will open up, and then begin to close as the velocity increases, until I find the "sweet" spot. Also you can stuff more powder in a case, but sometimes you get the diminishing return, as the velocity falls off with more powder. you need to know this stuff, IMO! How you gonna, without a cronograph?

Jerry

Jerry

quote:

Also you can stuff more powder in a case, but sometimes you get the diminishing return, as the velocity falls off with more powder. you need to know this stuff, IMO! How you gonna, without a chronograph?

By watching the target ( groups )case extraction primer . I agree on diminishing returns 100% .

Sometimes accuracy just doesn't come back with increased velocity . Take one of my M1's finicky nit picky

about digesting powder and bullet weight . Always SMOA with right load , 1-2 grains over or under and it's

a standard 3" @100M in that particular gun Velocity didn't pan out .



Why buy a 7 Mag if you are shooting it at 7mm Mauser velocities. You would be better off with a 7 mauser, less

recoil, less powder ect.

I'm reasonably sure I'm well over 7mm Mauser specs ; Yet I'm not proofing my chamber on every load

thus too a degree saving my barrels somewhat . Sometimes it's just not all that important too some of us

to wring out that extra 200 FPS and other times it's really important . Paper doesn't struggle much

either way hunting and dependent upon what the quarry is Well that's a different story altogether .

It's why I hunt with 2-3 different weights an types of bullets and I know exactly where they end up at

whatever yardage I shoot them , because I practice a whole or is it Hole bunches !.

150 GR. NOS BT IMR IMR 4831 .284" 3.000" 43.7 2437 39,900 CUP 46.5 2575 45,000 CUP


150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4831 .284" 3.270" 58.0 2758 51,500 PSI 62.5 2925 59,400 PSI


Which ever way one chooses is OK , as it's all good so long as YOU end up where you wish too be .

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
Gentlemen ----- If you don't use a chronograph and are not satisfied with your accuracy with hunting bullets, come shoot with me at my private range. Witness my use of the chronograph, targets shot, loading methods, then decide for yourself what you want to do. If you are satisfied with your accuracy and your methods, you must be doing something right on the one hand, or on the other hand you may be fooling yourself. Good shooting.

Depending on how far away you are, I'd sure take you up on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:



Why buy a 7 Mag if you are shooting it at 7mm Mauser velocities.

Persoally I like this idea. You will never shoot the barrel out and you still will be able to handle any animal in the lower 48.Also you would be exhausting the gas at somewhat lower pressure, reducing the recoil( maybe) felt from the 7x57. Increasing volume and reducing pressure for the same result ain't all bad.JMHO, roger

Doc ----- I am in Western Kentucky near Kentucky Lake between Paducah and Murray. I would be glad for you or anyone here to pay a visit and shoot with me. I shoot three days a week, thursday-saturday-sunday, instead of Golf. If you come and visit, I can shoot more if need be, depends on you. I am not a bench rest shooter, I am simply a hunter of game and I get my rifles and several others rifles ready for Deer-Elk-Moose-Bear or African game. If you have it, we will shoot it. Getting ready for our annual Colorado Elk hunt at present, would enjoy company. Good shooting.

Thanks! I'm in southwest Ohio. What is max range where you shoot? I didn't draw for CO this year.

Doc ----- I can shoot up to 400 yards on when the crop is gone. The crop is beans this year and should be gone by November. The only prob lem on a bright sunny day at that distance is the heat waves distorting the target. I do 99% of my shooting at 100 yards. The only thing that keeps me off the range is rain or snow, I like to shoot when it is cold but not zero, although I do some then to test the cold weather loads. My only experience in Ohio is when a grandson shot at Vandalia at the Grand National Trap Shoot a couple of years before it was moved to Sparta Ill. He shot a 100 straight up there when he was 16, the last year they shot there, cost me $100.00, but I was very proud to pay it. Good shooting.

Let's keep in touch

Frankly I chase accuracy not speed… I can’t remember the last time I loaded to the MAX book level for any round I load….

BUT

Once I find the load I like I do want to see how fast it is moving… if for no other reason , just to build a ballistic chart…

There is a point where velocity, accuracy, and charge weight are optimal. First priority is always accuracy. If the group is the same and the velocity doesn't increase much you know when you are wasting powder. At the same time if your load won't go the distance, 600 or 1000 yards for High Power then you know it's time to change powder or bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

find it curious that some of the same people who will almost come to blows arguing the ballistic superiority of one or the other of the 6.5x55 vs. the .260 Rem, or perhaps the .270 Win vs. the .280 Rem, will eschew the use of a chronograph by saying that 200 fps doesn't matter. Maybe it doesn't, but then why take such a vehement position on the performance of your favorite cartridge vs. one of its close competitors?

find it curious that some of the same people who will almost come to blows arguing the ballistic superiority of one or the other of the 6.5x55 vs. the .260 Rem, or perhaps the .270 Win vs. the .280 Rem, will eschew the use of a chronograph by saying that 200 fps doesn't matter. Maybe it doesn't, but then why take such a vehement position on the performance of your favorite cartridge vs. one of its close competitors?


Yep, what' the point in choosing a superior cartridge if you are not feeding it superior ammo.

Of course it matters. It's why some buy a 300winmag over an 06 or a 7remmag over a 7-08. IF I am going to shoot 7remmags @ 7-08 vel, I am selling the heavier, more expensive to feed magnum for a new 7-08. You seldom have to sacrifice accuracy for vel. If I can get 1moa groups with a slow load & 1.1mo groups w/ another that gets me 200fps more vel, easy decision.

I use one when developing a new load. If I stick to that load I don't bring it out again.

I'm getting what I think is very reasonable performance from one of my .44 mags; 300 gr. cast at 1225 fps and the empties nearly fall out when I swing the cylinder open.

It's a tool I use. I also use many, many others to help me build the best ammo that I can possibly produce. This equals confidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe from So. Cal.:
I use one when developing a new load. If I stick to that load I don't bring it out again.

I'm getting what I think is very reasonable performance from one of my .44 mags; 300 gr. cast at 1225 fps and the empties nearly fall out when I swing the cylinder open.

That exceeds the Federal factory 300gr load by about 50fps. As long as yo uhave no pressure signs, good to go.

I think I'm like several of you--an accuracy nut. However, I need to know trajectory as well (for really long range shots). Without a chronograph, I've been setting up my scopes by actually shooting at 100 and 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
...I've been setting up my scopes by actually shooting at 100 and 300 yards.

It is impossible to beat your method. As a HUGE side Bonus you also learn about Wind and Bullet Drift(in the same direction as the rifling.)

I do understand about folks desire to use Software External Ballistics Programs. No doubt it helps them get onto the paper. However, many fool themselves into thinking they can just run the Program, site in at X00yds, crank in what it says from the Program and be totally accurate. While they can occasionally be somewhat close in the Drop Rate, I've yet to see a Program that has a clue about the Drift. If anyone thinks so, they have just never actually shot at Distance.

Oh hell....I agree with that. Now what?

I use an Oehler. It's great.

Red:

This all started with a 22-250 Savage, that was showing high pressure signs, with book loads. What happened? Did you take any of our advice. Have you solved the problem? If I remember, I gave you the same situation I had with an AR, and how I solved it! What's up?

Jerry

I guess I'm the only CED user.

Is it necessary for developing accurate loads? No.

It will give you a better understanding of what your load is doing. If you shoot long range and only have 100 yds to test you will save yourself some frustration at long range by focusing on loads with low ES and SD.

The Hornady book has a ballistic chart in the back that gives you drop figures for distance. The only problem is you need to know how fast your bullet is going. That is the first piece to all the puzzles.
Guessing at the drop and guessing at the velocity is worthless. And even if you have a correct velocity, the figures you can get, whether from a book or a computer, are a pure wag. The only way to know what your rifle is gonna do at say 600 yards is to shoot your rifle at 600 yards.

Not only do I use a chronograph but I use an acoustic target...if you know the speed and distance the bullet traveled, the internal program generates a ballistic chart.

This particular day I was shooting 22 rimfire and 38 special to find out the speed of sound under the ambient atmospheric conditions...the target only works at the speed of sound or faster...the 3 microphones hear the sonic boom each bullet makes.

quote:

This all started with a 22-250 Savage, that was showing high pressure signs, with book loads. What happened? Did you take any of our advice. Have you solved the problem? If I remember, I gave you the same situation I had with an AR, and how I solved it! What's up?

Jerry: I suppose this is rather anticlimactic, but since several others had the same problem, we simply decided to use the highest charge that produced good groups and didn't show pressure signs. We will shoot the gun at 300 yds and see what it is doing and make final scope adjustments. For our purposes, this will be sufficient. I really do thank everyone for their input on this matter.