I started out with a Bachelor of Electro- Mechanical Engineering in 1973, got sidetracked into becoming the National Credit Manager of Australia's largest commercial real estate finance company in the mid '80's, went back to uni at 40 to gain a BA(Hons)(Psych), a Ph.D. in Cognitive Neuroscience, 2 masters degrees in Applied Science (Organisational Psychology and Coaching Psychology), together with 2 post grad diplomas, (Organisational Change and Development, Human Resource Management) makes me an uneducated redneck! Jeez! I thought I knew a thing or two! Maybe they're right - six munce ago i coodnt efen spel enginir, now i ar wun!?

Forgot to add a comment from my father (B.Eng.) (who taught me how to shoot and HUNT) was that sometimes it takes a good brain to resist an education! Also, I am generally reluctant to reveal to my hobby to people (I generally work with senior corporate executives), but recently have started doing so, and have been surprised at how many actually support the sport. In particular, I was delighted, after 'exposing' my 'secret diversions' to a rather cute female, to find that she has a Ph.D. in Environmental Science, takes students from the USofA on environmental tours here in Oz, and wants me to develop an educational program and demonstrate the impact of feral animals on the landscape - including the necessity to eliminate said ferals - shooting being the most humane and efficient method - fallow deer included! (this is one lady who ain't seduced by 'Bambi', 'Skippy', or 'Babe'). At this rate, I may have found me the next Mrs Rugeruser!!!!

My current gf has a Masters in Psychology. She's just learning about guns. I have some College.

Funny thing. Her ex-husband is a Ph.D in Psychology. He's also a university professor. He was smart enough to catch her, but not good enough to keep her.

I think I've got him beat on both counts.

I to am a medical student 3rd year

MBA- Finance. Weekdays manage 2 equity mutual funds, shoot on weekends.
Not any smarter than anyone else though, maybe a little better informed about some things.

B.B.A. in Accounting
Currently the Systems Admin for a law firm in Houston, Texas. (170 employees; 3 Systems Dept staff)

-Bob F.

PhD in neuroscience. university professor. board of directors for local gun club and executive board of faculty senate. I wear my NRA hat to work, and have been known to lecture in overalls.

Working on my first degree in Anthropology. I'm in my 3rd year of University and have completed 3 years at college.

Turok

Have completed 3 years of undergrad studies in Animal and Veterinary Science, hoping to go on to Grad school and do some work with livestock nutrition or genetics. Glad to know so many of us "uneducated gun nuts" have a common thread.......EDUCATION!!!!

I have two Associates degrees and a Bach. of Science in Architecture... working as an "intern" to become licensed.

I had an instructor with whom I had a run in a time or two regarding firearms...she vowed I would never graduate and never become an architect. I proved her wrong and do so again everyday!

My wife has a Masters in Social Work...

Its hard for a hardcore conservative and liberal to remian "buddies", but she has learned a thing or two! While she isn't an active shooter, she has done some with me and enjoyed it. She even stepped up and defended gun owners and firearms one day to one of her professors when she was attending one of those ultra liberal universities. That story made me proud!

[ 10-27-2003, 23:35: Message edited by: Trapdoor ]

I'm a CPA. In 1982 I graduated college Cum Laude with a BBA in Accountancy. I didn't pursue a more advanced degree because, frankly, I was sick and tired of school. Here's a sampling of some of the guys I regularly hunt with (all gun owners of course):

4 lawyers (the good kind)
2 doctors
1 dentist
1 entymologist
2 farmers (one with an engineering degree, the other with a degree in accountancy)
1 owner of a minor league hockey team (law degree)

I will have to admit to hunting with at least one uneducated hillbilly, however. That would be my first cousin who didn't graduate college, but who does own a successful crop dusting business.

Anvil,

My response to an anti is this:

"How would you like to debate this? As matter of morality and philosophy, or science? (Since common sense is out of the question)

Morality- There are no major world religions that forbid killing animals, many of them require or required it. In fact if a divine Being created nature and our position in it we are divinely ordained to accept the gift given us. I can produce divine authority for the killing of animals; where is your divine authority for opposing hunting? So no coherent convention of morality supports your anti-hunting position.

Science- You have within your mouth canine teeth nature designed for tearing flesh. Biologically you are designed to eat flesh and vegetation. As a human being you are an omnivore whether you like it or not. Ecologically we are at the top of the food chain and there is no imperative not to exploit our position there. All the other flesh-eaters exploit theirs.

Philosophy- (Argument-Humans need not kill for food any longer so it has become unethical) Humans kill to eat period, flesh or vegetable. Clearing crop land kills animals through habitat destruction. Controlling crop-killing insects deprives animals of food. Crop-predating animals must be controlled. Processing food kills animals and insects. There is no meal you have put it your stomach that some creature hasn't paid for with its life. Death is the price of life.

[ 10-28-2003, 03:51: Message edited by: steve y ]

It's going to be great to throw this in her face. I admit to having no idea just how many gun lovers have so much education. It is really not the impression you get in and around universities. I believe this shows first that we aren't uneducated rednecks, but also that in general gun owners and supporters of the 2nd amendment don't make our views visible enough. This woman's attitude seems to be very common and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that people like her don't realize how many of her collegues and/or professors are shooters.

Thank you all for replying it has been an "eye-opening" experience

Carl

BTW, I may be the M.D., medical professor, Mensa member and all that, but my high school educated brother in law who's "street smart," very friendly and likeable, a good judge of character, and quick to recognize an opportunity for a good deal could buy and sell me several times over, I expect. My father in law is also a very smart and hard working fellow who did well in life with a high school education.

My brother's a lawyer. (We all have skeletons in our closets.) Also a Mensan. He likes guns, too. Speaking of Mensa, back around 1984 when I was a member of Central Alabama Mensa my wife and I attended a chapter picnic at a member's home out in the country. Most of the menfolk entertained ourselves all afternoon shooting a wide variety of firearms. When I moved here to Bristol in 1986 I went on a wild boar hunt with a group of Mensans. The fellow who organized it was also a member of the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry and the Triple Nine Society. They're both organizations with membership based on documented intelligence testing, but with far more rigorous standards than Mensa. ("Triple Nine" is named for the minimum 99.9th percentile on an approved intelligence test that they require for admission. Dunno if my measly 169 Stanford-Binet global score when the school psychologist tested me back in grade school would get me close.) My point is not to start any argument over the meaning of intelligence or what is measured by intelligence tests, but since this anti's assertion is that anyone who enjoys guns and hunting must be uneducated and ignorant (and by implication, unintelligent), I thought I'd point out that many gun enthusiasts have good credentials in conventional measurements of intellect as well as education.

Finally, my father was by far the smartest man I've ever known or met. He grew up as a farm boy in south central Alabama. When he was 9 or 10 years old, he was given a junked Model T engine that was both worn out and had the block cracked by freezing. He brazed the cracked block using blacksmith's equipment (no oxyacetylene out on the farm circa 1920) and rebuilt the engine himself. He figured out how to hone the worn cylinders by hand using a junked piston and connecting rod as a tool, the piston coated with valve grinding compound. He got that junked engine running and built a sawmill of his own design powered by it. (Rather like some of the "Junkyard Wars" projects of today.) People came from several counties around to see that little boy's sawmill in action. He worked raising chickens and doing blacksmith work for the neighbors until he could put himself through college, the first in the family to do so. (When he sold out and paid off all his debts he came out $10 ahead in the early '30s Depression years.) He was a school teacher, principal and county superintendent of education. He somehow or other got into a graduate program in physics for a while, working with a distinguished professor who'd independently discovered deuterium at about the same time as Harold Urey, who won the Nobel Prize for it. This guy thought Pop was the smartest fellow he'd known, BTW. Education was Pop's real love, and he got a Rockefeller Foundation fellowship to Columbia University where he earned his Ed.D. He was a school transportation expert, and wrote a textbook that was a standard in that field for years. He went on to be president of three colleges and universities, and spearheaded the founding of the medical school of which I'm now proud to serve on the faculty. He did lots of other great things, but you get the point. (Too late to make this a short story.)

Guess who got me started with my lifelong interest in guns and shooting?



[ 10-28-2003, 04:27: Message edited by: NotRicochet ]

1989 Master of Urban Planning from the University of Michigan. Great smallmouth fishing in the Huron.

MS in Computer Science from Texas A&M University, Half of my Phd course work done. 4.0 out of 4.0. Hunted and fished all my life. 25 years software engineer for IBM.

Anvil:

Whether or not gun aficionados are less educated has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not widespread gun ownership is a net social good or a net social bad. By framing the inquiry in those terms your Harvard educated class mate has already demonstrated a tenuous understanding of logic and on her premises, ought to own a firearm just to prove her thesis!

The best ammunition against anti-gunners is to make yourself conversant with the evidence contained in two books by Yale Law Professor [and former University of Chicago Economist] John Lott, to wit, "More Guns, Less Crime" and "The Bias Against Guns".

If the argument devolves into a debate about the second amendment, then familiarize yourself with the contents of an amicus brief submitted in a recent federal appellate case by "Academics for the Second Amendment" [I am sorry I cannot provide further details on the case, name, court, etc.].

A final, excellent source of facts and logic on the Second Amendment is a young genius and UCLA law professor named Eugene Volokh. His logic is impeccable. And of course, you can always invoke the authority of liberal constitutional scholars like Lawrence Tribe to support your position!

Jordan

Anvil:

Let your little granola bar eating, corduroy wearing, tree huggin', whale saving, dirt loving, Birkenstock sportin', hemp necklace weavin', bark chewing, tie-dyed ass, spotted owl humpin' girlfriend that there's enough degrees from the "uneducated rednecks" on this forum to wallpaper our single-wide trailers several times over!

I know it's frustrating, but don't even waste your time trying to convince her of the FACT that gun-ownership/hunting transcends all levels of education and income.

Time is better spent on the "fence-sitters" who only need a better understanding of our sport and way of life to be convinced that it does not infringe upon their own rights or safety. Prevent them from making an uninformed decision at the polls.

-MDL

--------------------------------------------
P.S. To answer your question...

INFORMALLY: I have several degrees from the
"School of Hard Knocks." In fact, there are many alumni on this forum These are the credentials that I give the most credence and value.

FORMALLY: (AS IF this really alters my affinity for hunting and firearms)
-B.S. in Biology/Chemistry
-Master's in Health Systems Management
-Working on M.D.

(Tulane University - a "Southern Ivy League")

Hey Anvil,

Your just down the road from me, hell were almost neighbors.I live in Ypsilanti, and I cant stand the attitudes of the people in Ann Arbor, theres way to many liberals and anti-whatevers.
I just finished my associates degree in criminal justice, and Im a major gun enthusiest, and hunter, enough said.

Fordfreak

M.A, college teacher, vice mayor, county counsillor.

Fritz

[ 10-28-2003, 13:24: Message edited by: Fritz Kraut ]

I am not an educated man,but have good common sense.That said i am 49 and retired and get to shoot at least three times a week.

and with no offense to any teachers or Profs (my son is a teacher with a M.A.)
Those who can do!
Those who can't teach!
this is a quote from a graduation speaker .But i can't remember his name,does anyone remember reading this last spring???
muskrat
live to shoot -shoot to live!

BA Criminal Justice with minors in sociology and psychology, a GPA og 3.8 and I did it in 2 years. (I was in a hurry.) I write books and have been published in regional magazine.

No degree, but have about 65 credit hours toward a bachelors in nuclear technology. Six years in the Navy nuclear power program, Licensed Reactor and Senior Reactor operator. Love my wife, love my kids, pay my debts. Hmmm. If that is being a redneck, count me in.

While I do believe the Second Amendment means what it says, I also think gun ownership is a serious responsibility that some "educated people" rightly decide they are not equipped to handle.

Bachelor of Arts in History

Doctor of Jurisprudence

(Which is a fancy way of saying I'm an attorney)



[ 11-24-2003, 20:18: Message edited by: JLHeard ]

Fordfreak you have a PM

Two B.A.'s (one in history, one in English); M.A. (in History); language competency certificate in Mandarin Chinese; J.D.; one year of international law studies at the Ll.M. level at University of London; Phi Beta Kappa; Alpha Lambda Delta; Mensa; International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (membership requirement is I.Q. in the top 99.9%); conversant in Latin, Ancient Greek, Mandarin Chinese, French and Spanish (although a little out of practice); practicing attorney.

I wouldn't normally admit this stuff, but this sort of attitude really gets my goat.

Credentialism seems to be an infectious disease...

Carcano

B.A. in Mathematics, and 35 years a computer programmer.

I am sorry I didn't know we could include people we've hunted with:

DEGREE EMPHASIS
PhD Biology (microbiology)
Phd Biology (evolutionary ecology)
Masters Biol(conservation)
Masters Biol(forensic Anth)
BS Engineering
Phd Biology (forensic anth)

I don't have the time to mention the guys I have shot benchrest comp. w/

Still think gun ownership requires common sense not a degree.

The NRA used to frequently mention that the typical hunter/shooter in the USA has more education and a higher income than the average American. I would think that you could get more info from the NRA on that line.

As others have mentioned, education does not equal brain power. Many if not most college degrees are the equivalent of a four year bender, with some daytime socializing thrown in. I speak from experience.

I question the IQ of anyone who is unable and unwilling to fend for themselves. How bright are you if you don't even have basic survival skills? Put another way, it's the "rednecks" that farm and drive trucks that keep their over-educated carcasses alive.

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" Henry Louis Mencken

Okay, from the other side, I did not graduate High School, but I did get my GED. I also completed 38 weeks (in 38 weeks)of the most intense electronics training at Great Lakes Naval Electronics School. The success rate in that VERY tough course was only 28% of the entrants completed the program in the minimum time. There were college grads that needed extra weeks, so let's not use college as a measure. My IQ is somewhere in the area of 140 and I work in the space electronics industry dealing with Dr's and Masters and all sorts of BS's. I drink beer and sometimes even a fine wine. I like hunting, shooting, reloading and own a number of guns. Most of my real friends also like hunting, shooting and own lots of guns. My income is usually 6 figures so I guess I am not doing bad for an UNEDUCATED, BARBARIC REDNECK.

Gentlemen:

With all due respect. The premise of these responses touting educational levels is entirely wrong. Whether or not widespread firearms ownership is or is not good for society is not affected one iota by the educational level of gun aficionados or opponents of widespread firearms ownership. The whole issue of firearms ownership is entirely ad hominem [Gun owners are less intelligent than others, therefore guns must be bad, right? Or so goes the argument.] The argument is utterly irrelevant to whether
widespread gun ownership is or is not good for
society.

Furthermore, the fact that computer literate, upscale gun owners [with the means, time and intelligence to dabble in computers] tend to also be more educated tells us nothing at all about the education or intelligence of the average gun owner.

I guess my larger point is, I don't like the snobbishness of this thread. I wonder how some of those who are merely high school graduates [or not even that] feel when they read threads like this?

Jordan

I meant to say "The whole issue of relative intelligence is entirely ad hominem."

Jordan

No matter what the poll eventually reads, you won't convince your "peer" as she'll probably claim we've all lied in an effort to support your cause. She may be educated, but she is utterly lacking in the common sense department. After all, the Clintons are highly educated, yet neither Bill nor Hillary boasts as much as an ounce of real-world knowledge and understanding.

BS in Physics and Mathematics
BA in Anthropology
Also a group of us just started a gun and hunting club at SMU the law school that I am attending.

The snob factor of this thread is off the meter!

Jordan

i don't have all the sheepskins some of you guys seem to but i do think you have to have a little something on the ball to understand shooting stuff.

Man, does she really think that intelligence, insight or sensitivity has anything to do with educational level? I mean look at her for God's sake.