At the risk of offending everyone, I'm proposing a discussion of what people think are the greatest rifle cartridges ever invented. My criteria for inclusion on this list are:

1) The cartridge has to be in widespread use

2) The cartridge has to have led to a lot of progeny, i.e. it has to be the basis for a lot of subsequent cartridge development

3) the cartridge has to fill a niche that nothing else fills -- it has to be indispensible.

4) the cartridge has to have been around for awhile, so that it has a history behind it.

Given those criteria, here's my list:

.22 rimfire -- no explanation or justification needed.

7x57 -- this was the father of all the .473 base-size cartridges, including the 30-06. Besides that, it's a great cartridge in its own right.

30-06 -- the single most important and worthwhile centerfire cartridge ever invented.

.300 H&H -- this one is the father of all the belted magnums, including the .300 Weatherby and all of the other Weatherby and other magnums (those other than the .378 and larger ones).

.375 H&H -- than which there is no other.

.270 Winchester -- the forerunner of all the flat-shooting high velocity medium size and power cartridges (O'Connor called it "a magnum without the belt").

.22/250 -- yes, it's true that this one has not been around quite so long as the others. But it's the best of the .22 centerfire calibers, and the one against which all others are compared.

.243 Winchester -- led to the popularity, indeed the indispensibility, of all the 6mm calibers.

.416 Rigby -- the foundation of all the .416 developments.

.470 Nitro Express.

.300 Weatherby -- it's the most important of the Weatherby magnum line, and the inspiration for a host of subsequent belted magnums

.338 Winchester Magnum -- filled a niche between the .30 calibers and the .375. One could argue that some .35 calibers filled that niche too, but they were either underpowerd "deer cartridges" such as the .35 Remington, or, like the .35 Whelen, mever became very popular or widely used.

At least one more needs to be listed -- the 6mmPPC -- although it does not meet all the criteria, because it has become the benchrest standard.

I think the 8X57 preceded the 7X57 but wouldn't swear by it.

22lr
223 Rem
30-06
375 H&H

22 (bread)

12ga (water)

308 or 303 (sunshine)

for a man can not live on bread and water alone, with these rounds, he can hunt everything


everything else is wonderful and wise, but these are the rounds to define a north american's like.

Lloyd,
on the 35's... and you didn't mention 8mm... these are the icons of hunting in europe .. yep, the 8 redates the 7 mm

30-30 =nothing to say here
45 ACP =has been around for a long time and is very widly used. Saved MANY a solders life.

270 win without a doubt, also I think we will look back see the 204 ruger as a great also

Like General Patton said, "America is free today because of the M1Grand 30/06." The 30/06 gets my vote for sure. I walk around free because of it.

quote:

Originally posted by short44:
30-30 =nothing to say here
45 ACP =has been around for a long time and is very widly used. Saved MANY a solders life.

On the 30-30 -- I considered that one, but rejected it because I don't think it does anything very well. It was historically important because it, more than any other, marked the transition from black powder powered cartridges to smokeless powder ones. It has also killed a million or so deer. Still, I see no use for it today that is not fulfilled by considerably better cartridges.

I did not include the 45 ACP because my list is for rifle cartridges only.

I would include the 8x57 on that list the 30-06 was developed to respond to the Tuetonic development. Another round that shouldn't be overlooked is the 303 British, kind of dead ended now but it definately fits the list.

I would question the 470 NE, the 450 NE was first, and the 470 was developed beacause of an ammo ban in India and Sudan of 45 cal. Both are niche caartridges today. If I was going to give trendsetting to a 45+ caliber I would say the 458 Winchester is the cat, 45+ years and going strong.

Another overlooked development is the 45-70, intro date 1873, it ushered in the intro of 45-90,100,120 cartridges, and I am sure that this development cycle influenced the classic British big bores. Basically still active in the shooting community, and gaining popularity if anything.

Another cartridge that should hit the list is the 8x50R Lebel, it was the father of all modern cartridges, obsolete now yes but all of the cartridge development from its introduction in 1886, was based upon the principles developed
with its introduction.

I must concur with Blob1. The Free World must concur with him, for that matter. But on this Memorial Day, let us not forget the men who used the Garand and its cartridge so valiantly and to such a precious result. It is a pity that such results are lost on sewer-swimmers like Ted "Boozehound" Kennedy, Charles "Chucky" Schumer, Dianne "I know I'm a fat, hog-faced pig" Feinstein and Hillary "Maxibitch" Clinton.

quote:

I did not include the 45 ACP because my list is for rifle cartridges only.

Oops I didnt see that. I dont think there is one cartridge that stands alone that no other can do, like the 30-30 a 7-08 can do but the 30-30 is a standerd of almost all other center fire hunting bullets. I'll stick with the 30-30.

I think the 8x57 has to be on the list, having given birth to the 7x57, a host of American calibers, plus the 8mm-06 wildcat. You could argue that, from a European point of view, the 270 is effectively a 7x57 with a larger case capacity, vs. our American view that it is a 30-06 with a smaller bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by rootbeer:
I must concur with Blob1. The Free World must concur with him, for that matter. But on this Memorial Day, let us not forget the men who used the Garand and its cartridge so valiantly and to such a precious result. It is a pity that such results are lost on sewer-swimmers like Ted "Boozehound" Kennedy, Charles "Chucky" Schumer, Dianne "I know I'm a fat, hog-faced pig" Feinstein and Hillary "Maxibitch" Clinton.

Rootbeer. I'll second that.
Paul B.

I'm operating with an additional, unstated, criterion: the cartridge must be one that I think is still eminently useful today.

Based on that, I reject the .303 and the .45-70 because I think they are useless clunkers. They may have been historically important, but there is no point to their use today, except for perverse nostalgia. The .30-30, alas and reluctantly, also goes on that list, at least for me.

I reject the .458 Winchester mag because I think it is underpowered for its intended use. That's why a host of other more powerful .45s, such as the .458 Lott, the .458 G&A, the .460 Weatherby, and others were developed.

On the 8x57, I remain sitting on the fence. I understand that it came before the 7x57, but I'm not convinced that there is a good use for it today that is not covered by other, better cartridges, such as the 30-06. I also understand that it was the 7x57, in Mauser rifles, that convinced the Americans in the Spanish-American war that they needed something better than their Krag rifles with the 30-40 cartridge. The result was the development of the Springfield rifle, with first the 30-03 and then a few years later the great 30-06. But I could still be persuaded that the 8x57 deserves a place in the pantheon.

Two other cartridges that I'm sitting on the fence about are the .222 Remington and the .308 -- the .308 because it led to a number of other excellent cartridges, such as the .243, the 7mm/08, and the .358 Winchester. It's also the proper and much better successor to the .303 British. The .222 Remington because it was such a great success as both a varmint and a target round.

A cartridge I did not include is the .223 because I think it is neither fish nor fowl -- it's not as accurate as the .222 Remington, and it's not as powerful as the 22/250 and the .220 Swift. Also, I think is has been more of a disaster than a success as a military round because it is too small in caliber and too underpowered for that use.

LE270...

The difference between a 30-06, and an 8x57 loaded to modern pressures is very small. The '06 does have better BC's for normal bullets, so it does perform better at range, but I would not discount the performance of the 8x57. It is much better than surplus ammo and the loads in the books would lead you to believe.

quote:

Two other cartridges that I'm sitting on the fence about are the .222 Remington and the .308 -- the .308 because it led to a number of other excellent cartridges, such as the .243, the 7mm/08, and the .358 Winchester. It's also the proper and much better successor to the .303 British.

I like the original list, but I'd have to chuck the .243 and go with the .308. The cascading effect you mention holds a bit more water in my book. Without the .308, there was not the .243, and thus, the popular array of 6mm's.

Same holds true for the .06 and .270, both of which I like equally well, even though I have 3 270's and only 1 30.06. Meaning, I would think it is understood that the .06 spawned the 270, 280, 338.06 etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

quote:

Originally posted by rootbeer:
I must concur with Blob1. The Free World must concur with him, for that matter. But on this Memorial Day, let us not forget the men who used the Garand and its cartridge so valiantly and to such a precious result. It is a pity that such results are lost on sewer-swimmers like Ted "Boozehound" Kennedy, Charles "Chucky" Schumer, Dianne "I know I'm a fat, hog-faced pig" Feinstein and Hillary "Maxibitch" Clinton.

Rootbeer. I'll second that.
Paul B.

No arguement but you left at least one off that list. He's the one getting our kids and a lot of others killed in IRAQ even as I type this.Party affiliation should not aliviate someone's guilt. I would sell all my guns for a dollar each if it would save one of our kid's life. I kid you not. This type posting is in the wrong place.roger

Where does the 7.62x54R fit in? For sheer numbers of rifles produced, and longevity, it is hard to beat. It was developed before the USSR was formed, and continues in existence long after the USSR dissolved. Its offspring include the 7.62x39 SKS/AK-47 round. It falls about between the 308 and 30-06 in power.

22 LR
7x57
3006
300 H&H

quote:

Originally posted by denton:
Where does the 7.62x54R fit in? For sheer numbers of rifles produced, and longevity, it is hard to beat. It was developed before the USSR was formed, and continues in existence long after the USSR dissolved. Its offspring include the 7.62x39 SKS/AK-47 round.

I wouldn't put those anywhere near my list because they are all useless clunkers in my opinion, despite their historical importance and the fact that so many rifles were produced that use those cartridges.

quote:

I reject the .458 Winchester mag because I think it is underpowered for its intended use. That's why a host of other more powerful .45s, such as the .458 Lott, the .458 G&A, the .460 Weatherby, and others were developed.

I don't have any data for this but I bet production numbers are on the side of the 458, my guess is if you took production numbers of all the other big bores they wouldn't equal the numbers of 458 Win, and it did start the quest for a better modern big bore.

THe 303 British spawned a whole host of wildcats, not here in the USA, but the guys from down under, and are northern neighbors can fill in some of those details I think. I admit it is a has been today, but if your looking so is the 300 H&H, what production rifles are being currently chambered in this?

Don't think there is any 100% correct choice here just opinoins.

375 H&H preceeded the 300 H&H.

-Spencer

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:

I don't have any data for this but I bet production numbers are on the side of the 458, my guess is if you took production numbers of all the other big bores they wouldn't equal the numbers of 458 Win, and it did start the quest for a better modern big bore.

...I admit it is a has been today, but if your looking so is the 300 H&H, what production rifles are being currently chambered in this?

I agree that the production figures for the .458 would no doubt be much higher. But quality or excellence is not based on the number of copies of something. Moreover the 30-03, for a different example, was not a great cartridge -- its only importance is that it led to the 30-06.

I agree with you about the .300 H&H, but I happen to like it. I also think that someone who ordered a custom made .300 H&H today would not be making a mistake, whereas someone who ordered a custom made .303 today would be doing something totally indefensible.

No doubt I would rather have the 300 H&H, and I have never been a big fan of the 303. But there are a whold lot of remanufacturered 303's being churned out ( no I don't want one ).

Problem here there are a significant number of shooters that like and enjoy the ol clunkers, ie: 45-70, I am not going to do the search but there must be 15-20 rifles being chambered for this cartridge still, someboby must like them or they wouldn't be produced.

I think the real sucess long term on a rifle cartridge is when it is accepted by a major militry power. IE; 45-70, 30-06, 8x57, 7x57, 308, russian 30, 303. These might not all be breaking edge technology today but they were in their day and they somehow have staying power, they seem to just keep going and going. No not all military rounds get on the above list either but if they were accepted by more than one country the long term success is pretty much assured.

Another round that might just make the list is the 9.3x62, very popular in its day, regaining popularity now, debatable whether the 35 Whelen is the US version of the round.

I just love the .375 H&H and I pick that as very important.

I suppose you have to say the 30/06 as well.

I almost forgot the main one...

22 HORNET

22 Hornet
9.3x62mm
375 H&H
416 Rigby
505 Gibbs

Maybe the 8x57, of which the 30-06 is a second-rate copy

quote:

Originally posted by short44:

22 HORNET

I know that this one was historically important and that many people still have an interest in it. But I do not include it in the great cartridge pantheon because it isn't a great cartridge -- there's nothing it does that the .222 Remington does not do better.

Let's see here, I suggest the 44 Russian, it begot the 44 S&WSpecial, 44 S&W Magnum and 44 SuperMag. I also put up the 38 S&W Special. this became the police standard for better than 90 years and brought us the 357 S&W Magnum, also a service revolver standard chambering and the 357 Remington Maximum, which while less known, was one of the first attempts at a high pressure mass production revolver, and in a rifle is the ballistic equal of the venerable 30-30.

Such a lsit as this would be hard pressed to leave out the 44-40 or the 45 Colt. The 44-40 also brought us the 38-40 and the 45 Colt was the basis for the 454 Casull.

As to rifle cases, the 38-55 is a case that should be on the list as it was the basis for the 30-30, the 25-35 and the venerable 219 Donaldson Wasp (via the the 30-30) which held a place of high esteem in benchrest circles for many years. It shoud be noted that the Wasp is very like the 22PPC

I disagree with the estimation that the 30-30 has no place on the list. While it may be argued that it has been displaced, it is still found in the hands of more hunters than the likes of the 7-08 and the 260, I would inf act argue that is still carried by as many hunters as the 243, which has as yet been able to displave it in sales. It is probable that the best case for the 30-30 lies not in what a great cartridge it is, but in what a survivor it is. It has been chambered in every type of rifle except semiauto; pump, lever, bolt action and single shot and double rifles; it continues to be chambered in a single shot pistol and is chambered in drillings as well. I would argue that while not a great performer on paper, it outperforms it's ballistics on game, is gentle on the user and brings home the venison year in and out. In continues in the top 10 of reloading dies sold and continues to be the first centerfire rifle cartridge many ever fire.

To discount the 30-30 makes any discussion of great cartridges nothing more than a list of personal dislikes rather than an honest list of greats. I wish it carried my name. How many know exactly what a 30-30 is and in what rifle it is chambered when they have not a clue what 300 H&H is and have never heard of the 219 Donaldson Wasp?????

Another cartridge that is probaly worth of mention on this list would be the 6.5x55, introduced in 1894 and still going strong. It had to at least influence the small bore trends that followed.

I agree with you assement on the Hornet, great little round, but stuck between the 22LR and the hotter 22's.

quote:

Originally posted by johnnypaul:

Let's see here, I suggest the 44 Russian, it begot the 44 S&WSpecial, 44 S&W Magnum and 44 SuperMag. I also put up the 38 S&W Special. this became the police standard for better than 90 years and brought us the 357 S&W Magnum, also a service revolver standard chambering and the 357 Remington Maximum, which while less known, was one of the first attempts at a high pressure mass production revolver, and in a rifle is the ballistic equal of the venerable 30-30.

Such a lsit as this would be hard pressed to leave out the 44-40 or the 45 Colt. The 44-40 also brought us the 38-40 and the 45 Colt was the basis for the 454 Casull.

As I wrote above to another respondent, I'm restricting my list or pantheon to rifle cartridges only. I don't know enough about and have little interest in handgun cartridges and handguns.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:
Another cartridge that is probaly worth of mention on this list would be the 6.5x55, introduced in 1894 and still going strong. It had to at least influence the small bore trends that followed.

This is one that never, to my knowledge anyway, became much of a force in America, so most of us Americans tend to know little about it and pay little attention to it. It may be greater and more important than most of us realize.

Does it fill a niche that nothing else really fills? Does it have admirable qualities that set it apart in some notable way?

One niche or space that is unfilled on my list is the .25 caliber one. I haven't put anything in it because I'm unsure what should go there, and I'm unsure that the 25s are really necessary. Two possible candidates are the .257 Roberts and the 25/06, but both seem to me to be little used today.

quote:

Originally posted by johnnypaul:

I disagree with the estimation that the 30-30 has no place on the list.

What you say about the 30-30 is true. But consider this: If someone were to ask you today what caliber rifle to get, is there any application for which could you really recommend the 30-30 as the best choice? I think the answer is no.

Maybe we can agree that the 30-30 was a past great, but I don't think that it's a present-day great. I think it is obsolete in the sense that, for any present-day application, there are better choices available today.

.45 ACP
.308 W
.30-30
6PPC

lloyd
you have a pm

there is no modern round replacing the 30-30 and 45/70 in the cowboy action shooting arena, a fast growing area of bringing in new shooters... and, if one put the same standards to the 22 lr, we would see the 22 mag and now the 17 hmr replace them...

one can not use a 450 marlin or 458 winmag in cowboy action shooting, nor shoot your great great grandfather's old army rifle with them...



let's not use personal choice of obsolesence as a excluding issue.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
I think the 8X57 preceded the 7X57 but wouldn't swear by it.

It did.

quote:

7x57 -- this was the father of all the .473 base-size cartridges, including the 30-06. Besides that, it's a great cartridge in its own right.

I agree with this statement, except for the slight detail that the "father" cartridge here is the 8X57Jmm (Model 1888) German Mauser & Commission cartridge, upon which all the other 57mm's were based, including the 7X57mm, which arrived on the scene 4 years AFTER the 8X57J.....

"Based on that, I reject the .303 and the .45-70 because I think they are useless clunkers. They may have been historically important, but there is no point to their use today, except for perverse nostalgia. The .30-30, alas and reluctantly, also goes on that list, at least for me."

The .45/70 is still eminetly useful today in its modern incarnation as a hunting rifle, not to mention the use it is currently getting in BPCR and silhouette competition!

Despite its' military obsolescence, there are literally tons of old SMLE .303's around the world, and a lot of them are still in use as hunting rifles, if not in the U.S., in a lot of former members of the British Commonwealth.

If we are going to make a list like this, let's not limit it merely to consideration of what we consider useful as hunting arms in the U.S. today.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

I repesctfully disagree on the 303 Brit.

The fact that is has outlived it's usefullness or the fact that it has no appeal in the eyes of the american shooting world does not detract from it's importance in shooting History.

He was quoting what I wrote about the 303.

For me, there is an important distinction to be made between historical importance and greatness. The fact that something was historically important does not imply that it is great. I grant that the 303, the 30-30, and the 45-70 were historically very important. Does that necessarily mean that they have inherent greatness?

I agree with you on the 7x57 -- after the .22 rimfire, it was at the top of my list. I'm still sitting on the fence about the 8x57 because I'm not yet convinced that it retains its admitted historical importance and greatness into the present, given that the 30-06 exists and is, I think, a better cartridge.

For both historical greatness and inherent greatness I submit that the 8X57 (father of almost all cases designed for standard length bolt action rifles and still alive and well today) and the 30.06 (father of most of the standard length American cartridges and still alive and well today) are the numbers one and two on the list. Number three is the 375 H&H, father of the belted magnum cartridges still in use today.

I'll pipe-up regarding the 8 x 57. Loaded to potential it will essentially match the velocity of the 30-06.

The feature that seems to get overlooked is that the 8 x 57 fires a .323" projectile, which in my book makes a significantly bigger hole than .308s. So compared to the -06 you can get similar velocities and bigger holes. Which is the better cartridge?