The world got a chance to be free due to the 30-06 because the British Expeditionary Force repelled the massed ranks of the German Army at Le Cateau and the Retreat from Mons in 1914. This was truly the first time that modern smokeless repeating rifle fire was deployed on a massive scale. It gave rise to the Battle of the Marne and quite literaly stopped the Schleifen (sp) plan and hence save the Great War from being lost.

The rifle the SMLE, the cartridge the 303. That rifle alone could have achieved that. Had the BEF been armed with Springfields or Mausers they could not have done it - just not fast enough.

The rapid rate of fire in 1914 was 20 aimed shots per minute (including a recharge of the mag) in 1986 when I did my basic training with a 30round assault rifle the rapid rate of fire was 20 rounds per minute.

So no 303 equals no war for the Doughboys to use their 30-06s to win it (which they emphaticaly did!)

BTW Carcarno - I thought the 8mm Lebel predated the 303?

The 8x57 predates the introduction of the 7x57 and was developed from the 8x57 hence:

quote:

this was the father of all the .473 base-size cartridges, including the 30-06. Besides that, it's a great cartridge in its own right.

Really applys to the 8x57.

In response on the 6.5x55, it is the standard that all 6.5 cal rounds are judged, it is in defacto the 6.5 round, hence its "niche",

Concerning: "Does it have admirable qualities that set it apart in some notable way?"

Considering it is the only "old" round other than the 06 that has won both Domestic and International shooting events, and is still in use, that quality is inherent accuracy potential, coupled with light recoil. Yes its being displaced by the 6.5x284 in recent years, but that is still a wildcat cartridge, with no rifles chambered for it.

Actually there are more rifles currently chambered in the 6.5x55 than the 7x57. Winchester, Ruger, Howa, and CZ all chamber 6.5x55's the same can not be said for the 7x57. Where the 7mm-08 has made inroads into the 7x57's base, the 260 had not made the same strides into the 6.5's popularity.

Well if you are going to be like that there should not be ANY thing listed as the greatest,,,as any bullet can do the job !!!! A 30-06 can kill a rabit !!! A 22 LR can kill a deer, why dont you say this is what " I " think is the greatest !!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

quote:

Originally posted by short44:

22 HORNET

I know that this one was historically important and that many people still have an interest in it. But I do not include it in the great cartridge pantheon because it isn't a great cartridge -- there's nothing it does that the .222 Remington does not do better.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
let's not use personal choice of obsolesence as a excluding issue.

jeffe

A very, VERY good point!

The original list does smell of personal choice.........

BigRx

I would respectfully submit that the cartridge thats been around the longest must have some merit.All hail the 45/70,8x57,300hh,to name a few

quote:

Originally posted by BigRx:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
let's not use personal choice of obsolesence as a excluding issue.

jeffe

A very, VERY good point!

The original list does smell of personal choice.........

BigRx

Yep! How can you possibly form a list of "greatest cartridges ever developed" while at the same time discounting their historical significance? What is left? Subjectivity, thats it!

The 06 is proped up in the original post as "the greatest centerfire cartridge ever developed" while the 7.62X54R is dismissed as a "usless clunker" when in fact they are very near to ballistic equivalents. Im a 30-06 nut, but without the 8X57 there wouldnt even be a 30-06 or 7X57, and the 7.62X54R did as much to defeat the Nazis as the 06 did.

The same personal bias is shown in LE270's acceptance of the 7X57 and reluctance to include the 8X57 when in fact the 8X57 is actually a (slightly) more powerfull round.

I liken this to the various "top 50 or 100 sports figures etc lists of all time" that seem so popular today, the problem with them is all of the greats that are left out while others are placed on a false pedestal above their peers because of personal bias, doesnt mean too much to me.

Time would be better spent making a "most unappreciated round ever dismissed" thread.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
At the risk of offending everyone, I'm proposing a discussion of what people think are the greatest rifle cartridges ever invented. My criteria for inclusion on this list are:

1) The cartridge has to be in widespread use

2) The cartridge has to have led to a lot of progeny, i.e. it has to be the basis for a lot of subsequent cartridge development

3) the cartridge has to fill a niche that nothing else fills -- it has to be indispensible.

4) the cartridge has to have been around for awhile, so that it has a history behind it.

Well-
-22 RF there is no doubt, but it took time for the 5m/m and 17s to show up.
-8X57, however it fails because it isn't in wide spread use and some countries banned military calibres for personal use...that is one of the reasons we got the 8X57R. Of the surviving military calibres 30-06 reigns supreme.
-7.62X54 is a close second, but doesn't have the number of spin-offs the former does.
-303, an oldie, but goodie is in third place simply because it lacks the power of the former.
-the belted H&H's should be the clear winner as after 75 years there is newer and better, but nothing that has them moribund esspecially the .375.
Clearly, there is no winning this as opinions differ on each side of the globe.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

quote:

Originally posted by johnnypaul:

I disagree with the estimation that the 30-30 has no place on the list.

What you say about the 30-30 is true. But consider this: If someone were to ask you today what caliber rifle to get, is there any application for which could you really recommend the 30-30 as the best choice? I think the answer is no.

Maybe we can agree that the 30-30 was a past great, but I don't think that it's a present-day great. I think it is obsolete in the sense that, for any present-day application, there are better choices available today.

Actually, I reccomend the 30-30 to people every year, a few actually listen and act on the advice. I live in Northeast Alabama (On Lookout Mountian actually) and primarily hunt creek bottoms and reclaimed coal strip mines. 150 yards is a long shot, even over local crop fields. Of 23 deer I have shot, 1 was at the extreem range of 80 yards everthing else has been at 40 yards and less. I meet people every year who hunt these conditions with the likes of 300 Win Mags, none are shooters, and all bitch about how hard the rifle kicks and complian about accuracy as well. Most of that inaccuraccy I figure is fear of recoil. When I ask 'em how far they kill deer, I get sheepish looks and responses like "50 to 120 yards". Can you tell me any reasonable reason to carry anything larger than a 30-30 in these conditions?

I hunt with a 44 Magnum rifle, not real sexy but very effective. I'm gonna give the old 38-55 a spin this year, I figure a 265 grian bullet at 1800 fps will kill any deer I can see at 50-75 yards.

By the by, the 45-70 is perfect medicine for these conditions as well, I just don't like having the snot beat out of me when I pull the trigger, and is probably why it is still with us 133 years later. I've killed a few with it over the last 30 years as well.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

For me, there is an important distinction to be made between historical importance and greatness. The fact that something was historically important does not imply that it is great. I grant that the 303, the 30-30, and the 45-70 were historically very important. Does that necessarily mean that they have inherent greatness?

If these cartridges have no inherent greatness, why are they still with us and still revered??? Still used and carried when so many so called superior cartridges are available? Will anything be any less dead shot by one of these as compared to a more modern ballistic wonder?

If the time is taken to study the impact of the 303 in the Commonweath nations, it has been necked up, down, blown out and offered in every configuration from 22 calibers to 400's. Years ago Ken Waters used a 303 case and Enfield rifle to make a 375 that is a ballistic twin to the 375 JDJ. There is a 25 caliber, based on the 303 that is still a current offering in rifles in Austrailia. In other parts of the world, the 303 has had the impact the 30-06 has ahad here.

Cartridges like the 22 Hornet, 30-30, 45-70 are still offered because the modern hot rods do NOT do what they do better. In fact, many seek out such chamberings because there are no current offerings of mid range velocity/energy. Might I susgest that before condemning something liek the 32-20, go and get one and spend a year or two with it and become intimately familiar wit what it will do. You may find it outshines the likes of the 223 in ways that words nor imagination cannot express or grasp. Get a 30-30, it'll force you out of that stand and away from that beanfield rifle and teach some things about habitat and feeding and use of cover that are not apparent when equipped with the latest greatest hitech wonder. Good Topic

OK. I'll add the 8X57, the 6.5X55, and the .308 Winchester to my pantheon of greats.

I admit that my list is not just descriptive, but is also meant to be normative.

As I think about it more, I think that a different sub-group is needed -- what we might call once-great but now obsolete cartridges. I'd put the .303 British, the 7.62x54 Russian, and possibly a few more into that group. I admit that the 300H&H almost fits in there, but I think it is still useful in the sense that no justification would be needed for choosing that as one's primary rifle for a given application today, whereas there would be -- in my opinion anyway -- no justification other than orneriness or misplaced nostalgia for choosing the 303 or the 7.62X54 today, given that the .308 Winchester is now universally available.

Someone wrote to me about Cowboy Action Shooting -- a sport I have had nothing to do with. Apparently the 30-30 and the 45-70 are quite popular in that sport, along with some others. Personally, I'm not interested in that sport, but I can see why other people might be, and why that interest may be coupled with a great affection for those cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
At the risk of offending everyone, I'm proposing a discussion of what people think are the greatest rifle cartridges ever invented. My criteria for inclusion on this list are:

Here's a thread for posting everyone's thoughts.. ...

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/580109572