What is it about velocity in reloading. Of all the reloading online forums Just about everybody wants to know the velocity of the that cal. or I pushed the envelope to achieve this velocity. I have never ever pushed the envelope on reloading to achieve the full velocity of any of my firearms. I have seen shooters on the gun range can;t get there bolts opened, or there barrel jumps so high they could not hit a barn What good is it if you cannot achieve accuracy Or is it the "Thrill" you are looking for??.

It is different for each person, some are completely enamored with velocity and to some it doesn't mean as much, however for me knowing the velocity of my loads is "part" of the whole package.
I have some rifles that no matter how you push them they are below published velocities I have other rifles that exceed "reloading book" velocity.
To me it doesn't matter the velocity because I am loading for accuracy.
But I want to know the velocity so I can estimate a drop table for it so I can then step out to my range and test it.
If you had a 300 Win Mag for instance that produced the same velocity as say a 30/06 why would you keep it and endure the extra muzzle blast and waste of powder?
So for me yes it is important to know the velocity, to some it doesn't matter at all to others velocity is everything.

Generic "Velocity" advice:

Stay within published loads and grab the most accurate load for your case, primer, bullet and powder combination.

Why?

1) Even by exceeding maximum pressures, one is unlikely to get more than 75-100 fps faster, usually a lot less.

2) Check your trajectory app to see what the 10% velocity increment does for drop and drift within normal hunting ranges.

3) Speaking of hunting, 100 fps adds only 100 yards to the max range where the bullet will reliably expand. Most hunting rifles today will give a velocity that reaches beyond this range.

4) Most target shooters will achieve better scores with the most accurate load than with the sightly higher velocity and better wind-bucking load.

I used to chase maximum and above book numbers, but no more. It is just another set of data that makes people feel good and after a certain point, has no bearing on bullet performance. Look at the trajectory and energy charts and you will see.
Just something to brag about like how your car will go 160 MPH but the speed limit is 70.

It’s just a number
3000fps, 650 Hp, 38DD’s

In reality it’s marketing hype. When you see one load edge out another by 100 FPS well that “has” to be a “better” round. I compete. So I need loads that will be supersonic at range and high BC for reduced wind drift

Velocity (as a product of pressure) is of interest because that is the only condition that a reloader can control in a load.

You need the velocity to more quickly determine the path of the bullet of choice to get the sight settings and drops for different ranges and to calculate the remaining energy at those ranges.

I load for four .300s - 2 Roy, 2 Win. 180s to 2900-2950 fps is all.

No animal has ever griped about dying at 150-250 fps below somebody's idea of max.

"Hey, that's just a .30-06 Improved". Whatever.

For a brief span loading to sticky bolt lift then backing off slightly. Like when my brothers and I would shoot each other with BB guns.....no eye protection. I cringe wondering how I survived such silliness. Darwin musta been sleeping those days.

Most shooters with comprehension of ballistics understand you are correct. Outright velocity is meaningless if unpaired with accuracy. In load development these must work in tandem. Personally, load development is for my main hunting rifles - .270 W, 30.06, .300 WM. I use straightforward scopes, with and without basic stadia bars, and like to have similar scope sighting pictures for all these calibres at the same shooting distances. Relative to the chosen bullet weights this is what I have achieved for shooting each calibre up to 400 yards. Generally I found the accuracy plus ballistic curve match between all at close enough to 3,000 fps. I guess in a way I am chasing velocity with reloading but not by excluding the other important components for achieving a useful hunting load.
I have seen some inexperienced reloaders / shooters stress unnecessarily about not achieving this or that velocity but for all the good they achieve I think their time would be more productive in choosing a suitable factory load purchased in quantity and taken to the range for serious trigger time to develop good shooting habits.

quote:

serious trigger time to develop good shooting habits.

and the chrono is just another tool to help reloaders.
I like to see the extreme spread of my reloads. it might give some idea on pressure "maybe"..
Finding quality components for reloading is more important. in the many years of my adventure they have gotten a lot better.

"....choosing a suitable factory load purchased in quantity...." Ammo must be a lot cheaper in NZ than here in the states. To me, a day at the range entails sending down a minimum of 100+ rounds. Not too long, you'd have enough money invested to buy components, dies, press, and a small fellow to pull your press handle.
While I agree wholeheartedly with your idea of trigger time, it's been many moons since I've shot a round of store bought ammo. I develope my load with the bullet I intend to use and then buy a sack of the cheapest bullets I can find of a like weight and use them for trigger time.

Accuracy is King and velocity is Prince. Extra velocity is nice but I won't sacrifice accuracy for more velocity. In a perfect world a reloader will have the best of both, but seldom do the two come together perfectly.

Many guys would he surprised to learn that chasing another hundred fps has little impact, no pun intended, on the path of the bullet in the field.
Or that bullets of equal SD fly the same. Lots of factors that are important than velocity.
And Samuel is spot on.
But I was never allowed to have a BB gun. Real ones, yes, but my Mother did not allow BB guns.

She was afraid that you'd shoot your eye out.........

Yes, she knew that boys with bb guns went around unsupervised and reckless. Whereas with a real gun, we would be more careful. In the 50s, all boys where I lived, took guns everywhere. Without incident.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:

Or that bullets of equal SD fly the same.

I suspect that you instead meant equal BC (ballistic coefficient). A blunt bullet certainly loses velocity and exhibits greater drop at a given yardage than a sharp-nosed bullet of equal sectional density.

Even bullets of the same BC sometimes don't "fly the same". A smaller, lighter bullet will exhibit more wind drift than a larger, heavier bullet, even if of the same ballistic coefficient.

Yes, BC. Oops. And true, wind drift will vary, but I meant only trajectory.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting maximum velocity from your rifles and handloads.

Why do we go for bigger cases that burn more powder then?

Higher velocity gives you a flatter trajectory, and less wind drift.

Nothing wrong with that.

Right but there is maximum practical velocity for a particular cartridge (and rifle) and then there is trying to stretch that one to the boundaries of too high pressure, stuck cases, short case life, etc.
Within each cartridge there are practical limits, is what I think is being said.

ENERGY increases at the SQUARE of the velocity and directly proportional to the bullet weight...

Therefore...more velocity, more striking power...as "Energy/impact energy/thump/whack/killing power etc is as confrontational as velocity...YOU have to decide your particular favorite flavor.

I LIKE velocity...been a velocity freak from the git-go but there are other factors involved to consider besides velocity...depending on what YOU want out of your shooters...and another way to stir-up the troops.

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes, she knew that boys with bb guns went around unsupervised and reckless. Whereas with a real gun, we would be more careful. In the 50s, all boys where I lived, took guns everywhere. Without incident.

Me too; on the bus to and from school, and the Express bus to get out of Cleveland to hunt rabbits and pheasants. Not even a gun case at times. I kid you not. roger

Late 1980s, "working up" a 180 gr load for a 24" Ruger 77 in .300 Win. Went through about a dozen manuals/editions to find the data giving the highest charges. Gave no thought to measuring internal capacity, or even headstamp. Or the use of different magnum primer.

Probably had a particularly fast lot of IMR-4831, too.

At the range ran four load increments, one grain apart. Last (#4) was listed max. #4 gave sticky lift first shot, with a fair amount of recoil - others seemed OK. Went home made up some more and repeated test with a chrono.

Load #2 was well over 3200 fps. #3 broke 3350 fps. Didn't try #4 again.

Looking back now am pretty sure the starting load was on the warm side for this rifle/throat/component combination.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
It’s just a number
3000fps, 650 Hp, 38DD’s

In reality it’s marketing hype. When you see one load edge out another by 100 FPS well that “has” to be a “better” round. I compete. So I need loads that will be supersonic at range and high BC for reduced wind drift

38DD's are Not Just a #

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting maximum velocity from your rifles and handloads.

Why do we go for bigger cases that burn more powder then?

Higher velocity gives you a flatter trajectory, and less wind drift.

Nothing wrong with that.

quote:

You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

The above is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard being said about hunting!

Obviously the writer has not hunted dangerous game very much!

Odd logic ? So when shooting a animal with a gun that does not kill when things go right will definitely get you into a situation where things go wrong

In the old, pre cheap chronograph days, velocities were just an educated guess.

Grizz

Velocity needed and velocity one thinks is needed can vary a lot.

The velocity needed is only enough to drive the bullet into the vitals and destroy enough tissue.

To kill the animal quickly and humanely.

With range finders multiple reticle scopes higher velocities needed to make hits at extended ranges are less important.

I have killed most of my big game animals with velocities in the 2400 to 2900 fps range.

Have I been able tell the difference in killing power at difference velocities.

I don't believe so I have had bang flops with the lower velocities and bang flops with the higher velocities.

So what do I pick for any hunting trip the rifle I want to hunt with.

Then I adjust my hunting/shooting to that rifle.

It really doesn't matter I killed dozen of animals with a bow or handgun so I can get up close if needed. A few at feet not yards.

I have shot animals at ranges some here would complain about.

So pick your firearm and velocity ajust your hunting accordingly and have a good hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
It’s just a number
3000fps, 650 Hp, 38DD’s

In reality it’s marketing hype. When you see one load edge out another by 100 FPS well that “has” to be a “better” round. I compete. So I need loads that will be supersonic at range and high BC for reduced wind drift

I can assure you, Kerry, 38DDs are more than marketing hype!

not at 4500$ they ain't.


velocity to me is a window in which particular bullets work the way they are supposed to.
a lower than 2600 fps velocity turns trajectory's into rainbows.
inconsistent velocities also tells me something about how a load is actually performing.

sticky bolt lift etc. is about pressure not speed.
unfortunately you have to have pressure to get speed.
the trick is getting it near the max and keeping it there for as long as possible to get speed.
pressure alone is just trouble waiting to happen.

velocity is often quoted because we can measure that, we could measure pressure too if we made the extra investment.
most loaders are not going to make that investment even though it should be the one we purchase.

I have found some smaller rifles of the same caliber giving higher velocities than a larger rifle.

A case in point is we have a 300 RUM which has higher velocity than we can get from a 30-378 Weatherby.

Saeed:
Law of diminishing returns in ballistic efficiency !

Adding more propellant by increasing combustion chamber capacity does not always lead to more translational velocity, at some point the tipping point where no more kinetic energy is added is reached.

Basically a overbore capacity limit where adding more fuel does not produce added velocity. The added energy is lost to non velocity producing processes.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
not at 4500$ they ain't.


velocity to me is a window in which particular bullets work the way they are supposed to.
a lower than 2600 fps velocity turns trajectory's into rainbows.
inconsistent velocities also tells me something about how a load is actually performing.

sticky bolt lift etc. is about pressure not speed.
unfortunately you have to have pressure to get speed.
the trick is getting it near the max and keeping it there for as long as possible to get speed.
pressure alone is just trouble waiting to happen.

velocity is often quoted because we can measure that, we could measure pressure too if we made the extra investment.
most loaders are not going to make that investment even though it should be the one we purchase.

I'm wondering if we're discussing the same 38DDs, Lamar...

I used to chase velocity back in the day as well, esp before laser rangefinders came out.

Now, it is all about accuracy. Sure, higher velocity means less wind drift, but a slow load that is more accurate has more allowable wind drift than a fast load that isn't as accurate.

Too many shooters believe all bullets travel in straight line; they don't. Half hit to the right, half hit to the left, half are above your aiming point, and half are below, all depending on the accuracy of the rifle and your ability to shoot.

I just bought a .338 Edge off an AR member. 91 grains of H1000 under a 300 SMK shoots less than half a minute at 500 yards. Velocity is 2840, but primers are cratered pretty badly. I would love to have less velocity, less pressure, but the same accuracy, so the work continues.

Too many shooters believe all bullets travel in straight line; they don't. Half hit to the right, half hit to the left, half are above your aiming point, and half are below, all depending on the accuracy of the rifle and your ability to shoot.



That is why I keep telling everyone that I never, ever, hit EXACTLY where I am aiming while hunting

I have been loading for a few years and I am still learning and soaking up all I can from people and books. When I started I wanted to know velocity of everything and could not understand why my fast loads would not shoot. I learned that accuracy does not necessarily mean the fastest load.

I am learning that each caliber has a "sweet spot" in general with velocity and accuracy. For example most 270 WSM 140 grain loads are reach their peak accuracy around 3150 fps. I can push it faster but I start loosing accuracy. There are more variables than that listed, I am generalizing, powder bullet type etc also play factors.

So my reloading I concentrate on what is the fastest I can push it and is the most accurate staying in the confines of min and max data. I prefer accuracy over the speed. I use the speed to determine the trajectory because I cannot afford those scopes that do the math for you. I shoot old school and "guess" my hold over. With a lot of practice, I rarely miss at long range and I have never wounded an animal.

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
It’s just a number
3000fps, 650 Hp, 38DD’s

In reality it’s marketing hype. When you see one load edge out another by 100 FPS well that “has” to be a “better” round. I compete. So I need loads that will be supersonic at range and high BC for reduced wind drift

I can assure you, Kerry, 38DDs are more than marketing hype!

I meant the velocity. and i agree

My take is rather simple. I strive for the fastest load that is the most accurate.
If that means testing several powders/primers with ONE BULLET, then that’s what I do.
I have a load in my 300WM that produces 3168fps with a 180gr Accubond, it is the fastest load I ever got with this bullet weight and is by far the most accurate.

Sometimes, the fastest loads turn out to be the most accurate, but generally this is NOT the norm.

Cheers.


PS, I come home to 38+DD’s everyday.

I want to KNOW the true max load of each one of my rifles, I may not hunt with that load, but I will be close to max as for the most part I have found my best accuracy at true max or near true max..but if your pernoid then I suggest you shoot your 30-06 like a .308 or your 25-06 like a 250-3000, I just don't see shooting my 338 Win at 30-06 velocity..

Im with Saeed on this one, but to each his own, whatever blows yer skirt up!!

Don't know if these posts were in response to my earlier post about a 3,000 fps 30-06 load or not. My goal was a flat shooting load that would be reasonably accurate and deadly in a quick shooting situation at 50 yds or 500 yds. The goal wasn't 3,000 fps. The exact conditions were elk and Mule deer hunting in Idaho in an area of black timber on the North slopes and open exposed hillsides cross canyon on the South slopes. The rifle was my old Parker-Hale with a Mauser 98 action. Leupold 3X9 scope. The shooter was my Son who is an excellent shot. He has had my rifle over 30 years and used it where ever he has been stationed including Alaska.
Nice to see many of you agreed that the goal made sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
Accuracy is King and velocity is Prince. Extra velocity is nice but I won't sacrifice accuracy for more velocity. In a perfect world a reloader will have the best of both, but seldom do the two come together perfectly.

Well stated!