How could this happen? What would set them off?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/.../index.html?hpt=Sbin

About the only thing I could think of would be impact. And the moon and the stars aligned just right.

It sounds like they were packed loose in a bag.
That is a real NO-NO. The packets are designed to prevent such things. Many accidents have occured with a large quantity of primers.
Good luck!

Considering that you can crush a primer in a vise w/o it going off, I find this rather hard to believe. Did I understand the video to say that the "ignition" of the primer had propelled it through the bag?? I think that's bullshit too.

An what would have ignited them all ?. A forceful impact would be necessary for ignition of a single primer ,however to ignite them all would indicate they were not stored within the confines of original packaging but as mentioned loosely grouped yet in confinement A Sock or cloth bag perhaps ?.

Stupid person none the less that's what UPS FEDEX an the likes are for SHIPPING THEM !!!.

If UPS or FEDEX don't ship them, how do you get primers from the factory, to the distrubitor, to the retailer, and finally to the customer? Most folks are not going to buy a truck load at a time.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:


Stupid person none the less that's what UPS FEDEX an the likes are for SHIPPING THEM !!!.

I don't understand that remark myself.

FWIW, primers are strictly forbidden to be carried on any commercial flight whether passenger or freight aircraft.

The only way they can be transported internationally is by surface transport in 'hazmat' (hazardous material) packaging and by licenced carrier.

Black powder, BP substitute & anything else classified as explosive of any kind also fall into the same catagory.

Also FWIW, the EU passed a new law earlier this year to forbid the carriage of ANY ammo at all on all flights into or out of the EU.

The airlines haven't picked that one up yet but it's only a matter of time.

quote:

FWIW, primers are strictly forbidden to be carried on any commercial flight whether passenger or freight aircraft.

But loaded ammo is OK?

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

FWIW, primers are strictly forbidden to be carried on any commercial flight whether passenger or freight aircraft.

But loaded ammo is OK?

quote:

Also FWIW, the EU passed a new law earlier this year to forbid the carriage of ANY ammo at all on all flights into or out of the EU.

Loaded ammo to the tune of 11 pounds was legal on my last flight to Johannesburg.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

FWIW, primers are strictly forbidden to be carried on any commercial flight whether passenger or freight aircraft.

But loaded ammo is OK?

Ramrod,

Yes, once loaded into cases with smokeless powder which is classified as flammable rather than explosive, and of course the projectile they can be carried within certain criteria.

Which is:

No more than 5 Kgs per passenger and kept in a container where every round is kept separated from every other round.

This might help: http://www.shakariconnection.c...l-with-firearms.html

See Travel with ammo & packing ammo.

quote:

Ramrod,

Yes, once loaded into cases with smokeless powder which is classified as flammable rather than explosive, and of course the projectile they can be carried within certain criteria.

I knew that 5Kgs of ammo was OK I've carried it a number of times. Guess I didn't know that primers were a no no. I also found it strange that primers with powder in front of them was OK but primers alone was OK. But, nothing has to make sense any more.

The best "logic" that can be followed is "individually packaged" vs "Bulk packed" IE each cartridge is considered a separate package.

The danger with loose primers is the "explosive dust" that may accumulate in the container. That's the "why" behind your loading manuals warning about storing primers in anything but their original packaging. Speaking of which, ever wonder why each primer has it's own separate "pocket" to sit in? That's to minimize the chance of having a dust accumulation take place.

Article # 6 here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...unting-articles.html might also be of interest.

The baggage handler was most likely too ruff with the bag, even so I cant see how the primers went off.

Mabey that baggage handler will think twice before tossing peoples belongings around like trash next shift.

Ive had a few bad experiences with luggage.

Docs's knowledge of shipping and classification of flamables is a bit spotty. Notice how he's not correcting steve on explosive v flammables. I guess I could take a picture for hodgedon declaring POUNDS of h335 as a flammable


He'll get all aggressive about being called on it.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Docs's knowledge of shipping and classification of flamables is a bit spotty. Notice how he's not correcting steve on explosive v flammables. I guess I could take a picture for hodgedon declaring POUNDS of h335 as a flammable


He'll get all aggressive about being called on it.

Jeff

Sorry, I don't understand your comment at all...... the easy way to be sure is to look at the label on the powder (etc) and check it's classification.

Basically the Air Navigation Order (Carriage of Dangerous Goods) Act says no material classified as explosive may be carried.

Flammable materials may sometimes be carried under certain packaging criteria. for example smokeless powder if loaded into metallic cases or shotgun cases may be carried if packed into manufacturers packaging or in cases that ensure separation between individual rounds (such as MTM plastic cases).

If your comment meant you know someone who has carried loose smokeless powder on a commercial flight, you might like to look at the 5th point here:

http://safetravel.dot.gov/index_ammunition.html

Where it says:

"You may carry separate non-hazardous components of ammunition such as empty cartridge cases or inert bullets. You may NOT carry separate hazardous components such as black powder, smokeless powder, percussion caps, primers, wrapped charges used in muzzle-loading applications, or similar items".

I'm not suggesting these things don't happen just that it's highly illegal, bloody dangerous and helluva stupid.

We also need to bear in mind that the vast majority of check in agents don't know the rules of the implications either so it's best for all concerned to err on the side of caution and check very carefully indeed about what you can and cannot do before you do it.

This: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/...uksi_20022786_en.pdf might also be of interest. It's the UK version of the Air Navigation Order (Carriage of Dangerous Goods) act but every country in the world has adopted the same legislation and the only differences (except perhaps spelling) are that the other individual countries usually insert the name of that country in brackets.

Guys flying into and out of the USA also need to be additionally careful to check all the other regulations as well because 9/11 spawned a shitload of other requirements from a plethora of Govt bodies as well........ and that's without even addressing the issue of individual, additional regulations (rather than laws)

It's a helluva complicated subject but one that we need to be careful of because of the implications of the safety of the aircraft and passengers and also because of the penalties involved if caught breaking the laws.......

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
About the only thing I could think of would be impact. And the moon and the stars aligned just right.

I don't think one could handle a bag roughly enough to set primers off. My theorey would be static electricity.

quote:

I don't think one could handle a bag roughly enough to set primers off. My theorey would be static electricity.

I guess static electricity is a possibility but I reckon there's a number of possibilities and a lot would depend on what else was in the bag and packed close to the primers.

All it'd take is for something fairly rigid and pointed to be packed close to the primers and when the bag is dropped it could move forward an inch or three and bob's your uncle.

You can also carry loaded BP metallic cartridges with no problem. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
You can also carry loaded BP metallic cartridges with no problem. jorge

Jorge,

Hope you won't mind me correcting you on that. BP is classified as explosive (usually) 1.1 and any material classified as explosive of any catagory is banned from travel on commercial aircraft in any type of packaging etc under the aforementioned act and in the case of the US also other acts as well.

See the links at the bottom of the page here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-air-travel.html

Steve
My comment was that doc has a hardtime, not yourself. I understand shipping ammo, primers, and powders. The rules are set by the local jurisdiction.

Jeff,

Ok buddy. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Jorge

More here my friend: http://www.logisticstraining.c...fr-23831_interim.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:


Also FWIW, the EU passed a new law earlier this year to forbid the carriage of ANY ammo at all on all flights into or out of the EU.

The airlines haven't picked that one up yet but it's only a matter of time.

Please give a link to this legislation, because I cannot find any reference to it.

See the link in the first para of 'Travel With Ammunition' Here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...l-with-firearms.html

A 37-year-old airline passenger was arrested Tuesday in Miami after primer caps for bullets ignited while a baggage handler was unloading a roll-on bag, the FBI said.

The tarmac incident is not believed to be terrorism-related, FBI special agent Michael Leverock said.

Leverock would not provide details or speculate on how the bag might have gotten on the plane. He compared the primer to a "spark plug" for the bullet.

The unidentified passenger, a naturalized U.S. citizen who was bound for Jamaica, was charged with transportation of hazardous materials. If convicted, he could face a sentence of up to five years.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc224/375:


Stupid person none the less that's what UPS FEDEX an the likes are for SHIPPING THEM !!!. Eeker

salute archer archer

A Stupid person ! ; why ? for attempting transport of primers illegally by Air !. Now may face 5 Years for attempting ( I don't consider that very bright !!! ).

UPS FedEx and other shippers will Handle them , that's their job SHIPPING !.

If a hazardous material must be transported too an Island and Air freight won't risk it , Cargo an Cruise ship lines will handle shipping as well as bulk packages !.


150 lbs
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You folks really need to get out more often !.

I'll throw in a little historic tid bit....

About 1962 I bought a case of large rifle primers (1,000 count) from Herter's in Waseca Minnesota and after paying for them took them off the shelf and fumbled them and dropped the entire pack five feet to a concrete floor! Not a single one of them ignited!.....and yes...it scared the crap out of me!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doc224/375:



Stupid person none the less that's what UPS FEDEX an the likes are for SHIPPING THEM !!!. Eeker

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/QUOTE]

Doc, had you written "that's what UPS is for!! Shipping them!. We would have understood that you didn't think UPS was stupid for shipping them.
Although you're right. I don't get out much.

I carry BP (Goex2F)loaded ammo all the time, the regulations allow for that. You just can't carry it in canister or pellet form. A friend of mine's been to Africa at least twice with the stuff and no issues. jorge

Mate, you (and your friend) might carry it but I can assure you it's not legal to do so because the contents still fall under the classification of explosive and if you doubt me, check the classification label on the pot you buy the stuff in.

If it says explosive rather than flammable, it's banned from travel on any commercial aitcraft no matter how it's packed.Or putting it another way, repacking it into metallic cases etc, doesn't change it's classification, it just makes the same explosive material harder to detect...... and I'm sure you'll appreciate it's not a good idea to conceal explosive material on an aircraft in this post 9/11 world in which we live!

With all due respect, you of all people should appreciate the inherent risks of carrying such a substance on an aircraft...... but if you need further proof, I suggest you contact an airline and ask a dangerous goods advisor if you are permitted to carry a substance of the classification it says on the pot in whatever form you carry it in...... I guarantee they'll say no.

I'd draw your attention to this: http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-air-travel.html and esp, the links at the bottom and in particular this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592

Alternatively, if you think the regulations provide for it, perhaps you can show me where?

In some ways, I'd like to be proved wrong but I don't think I will be.

The regs say I can carry loaded metallic cartridges not to exceed 11lb. There is NO differentiation between smokeless and BP. So why ask the question and stir the pot? The airline goons are just going to give you the path of least resitance answer and say OH NO!

So, I'll continue to fly with loaded cartridges and I'll guarantee you nobody's going to pry bullets open and even if they did, I bet you the idiots won't know the difference. And BTW, ANYTHING out of Wiki is suspect. The regs are clear; loaded metallic cartridges are kosher.

With the way the NEWS can get every thing bass- ackward my guess would be that they were blasting caps not primers.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
The regs say I can carry loaded metallic cartridges not to exceed 11lb. There is NO differentiation between smokeless and BP. So why ask the question and stir the pot? The airline goons are just going to give you the path of least resitance answer and say OH NO!

So, I'll continue to fly with loaded cartridges and I'll guarantee you nobody's going to pry bullets open and even if they did, I bet you the idiots won't know the difference. And BTW, ANYTHING out of Wiki is suspect. The regs are clear; loaded metallic cartridges are kosher.

Buddy,

First let me make it quite clear that I'm not saying this to be awkward or make it difficult for hunters who want to travel with BP etc. That's actually the last thing I want to do.

The reason I'm saying this is that I want to try to make sure that no hunter ever ends up in jail for breaking the law and FAR more importantly than even that, I'm concerned that aircraft, passengers and crew stay safely in the air and don't end up in a smoking crater in the ground.

If the regs are as clear as you say, perhaps you can tell us what regulations you're referring to and post a link to them please? because despite several years of sporadic research, I've been completely unable to find a single shed of evidence that says BP or BP substitute etc can be legally carried on commercial aircraft in any format or container etc ..... I have however found plenty of evidence that says it can't be carried under any circumstances. - Remember that the world and his dog now have different legislations about this issue and even if all but one permit it but one does not, then it's banned. That's simply the way it is and those laws are there for a bloody good reason.

Regarding Wiki, the only wiki link I've posted is for the ValueJet crash and the information contained in that particular link is 100% accurate but if you doubt that, you are of course, perfectly free to do your own research on what caused the crash.

In the meantime, I've emailed the US DOT to ask their advice on the subject and IF (note the big IF) they get back to me, I'll post their reply.

Let me add that aside from the other reasons for not breaking the laws in this regard, the other issue is that sooner or later, it's liable to be used as a reason for the banning of transport of ALL ammunition on commercial flights and if that happens, then we're all buggered...... and possibly, all because someone insisted on trying to dodge the requirements for their own convenience and if you think they'll never come a time when ammo is banned from flights, take a look at the link in the 1st para of 'Travel With Ammunition' here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...l-with-firearms.html because the EU have already done it. Admittedly, only one airline has enforced it (and then actually temporarily withdrew it) but (unfortunately) I have no doubt whatsoever that it's only a matter of time before other EU airlines adopt the new rule.

Also bear in mind that it's unnecessary anyway because there's very few places in the world, including Africa that it's completely impossible to obtain BP or BP substitute locally.

In closing, just imagine what would happen if you took just half of that 11 lbs of explosive 1.1 BP loaded into metallic cases that you mention and just one ignited and caused sympathetic detonation of the others and then imagine that happening in an aircraft hold at umpteen thousand feet and what would happen to that aircraft.

The reason BP is classified as explosive and smokeless powder is classified as flammable is that they behave in two very different ways and that's why one can be carried and the other cannot.

Jorge,

I knew this had come up a while ago so used the search function and found this: Travel With Black Powder

Note my comment that says:

Guys,

I e-mailed the TSA about this and I specifically asked them a set of questions which were:

Can black powder in any kind of packaging including metallic cartridge cases be carried on any commercial aircraft?

Can any black powder substitutes such as pyrodex etc in any kind of packaging including metallic cartridge cases be carried on any commercial aircraft?

Can any primers for black powder firearms such as pyrodex etc be carried on any commercial aircraft?

His reply was:

Dear Mr. Robinson:

Thank you for your electronic message dated October 6, 2008, asking a series of questions concerning the carriage of black powder and percussion caps in checked baggage. The answer to each of your questions is that Federal regulations prohibit these items in checked baggage aboard commercial aircraft.

Thank you for your inquiry, and I hope this information is helpful.
Sincerely yours,
Lee R. Kair
Assistant Administrator
Security Operations

By checking in BP onto a commercial aircraft, not only is the hunter inviting prosecution under a number of different laws that could easily land him in chokey and with massive fines but he's also endangering the aircraft, passengers, crew and people on the ground.

Is it worth it?

quote:

Originally posted by wwjmbd:
The baggage handler was most likely too ruff with the bag, even so I cant see how the primers went off.

Mabey that baggage handler will think twice before tossing peoples belongings around like trash next shift.

Ive had a few bad experiences with luggage.

Yep a spoonful of Karma for the baggage chucker.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
See the link in the first para of 'Travel With Ammunition' Here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...l-with-firearms.html

Thank you.
Wheels set in motion.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
A 37-year-old airline passenger was arrested Tuesday in Miami after primer caps for bullets ignited while a baggage handler was unloading a roll-on bag, the FBI said.

The tarmac incident is not believed to be terrorism-related, FBI special agent Michael Leverock said.

Leverock would not provide details or speculate on how the bag might have gotten on the plane. He compared the primer to a "spark plug" for the bullet.

The unidentified passenger, a naturalized U.S. citizen who was bound for Jamaica, was charged with transportation of hazardous materials. If convicted, he could face a sentence of up to five years.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc224/375:


Stupid person none the less that's what UPS FEDEX an the likes are for SHIPPING THEM !!!. Eeker

salute archer archer

A Stupid person ! ; why ? for attempting transport of primers illegally by Air !. Now may face 5 Years for attempting ( I don't consider that very bright !!! ).

UPS FedEx and other shippers will Handle them , that's their job SHIPPING !.

If a hazardous material must be transported too an Island and Air freight won't risk it , Cargo an Cruise ship lines will handle shipping as well as bulk packages !.


150 lbs
Is your shipment's total weight Less than 150 lbs (70 kg) ? Ocean LCL Freight Service may be more expensive for shipments less than 150 lbs†.
Get Package Rates (for shipments less than 150 lbs)
† Freight services are subject to additional customs documentation and export declaration fees. Therefore; our International Priority and International Economy services offer better pricing for your shipments less than 150 lbs. In other words; International Freight services are feasible only for shipments more than 150 lbs. Please visit our Get Express Rates page to get price quotes for your shipments less than 150 lbs.



You folks really need to get out more often !.

What this guy did is STILL illegal, as he was attempting to export restricted items (primers & bullets) without the relevant State Department license.
Sending them surface mail doesn't absolve one from this.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Jorge,

I e-mailed the TSA about this and I specifically asked them a set of questions which were:

Can black powder in any kind of packaging including metallic cartridge cases be carried on any commercial aircraft?Can any black powder substitutes such as pyrodex etc in any kind of packaging including metallic cartridge cases be carried on any commercial aircraft?

His reply was:

Dear Mr. Robinson:

Thank you for your electronic message dated October 6, 2008, asking a series of questions concerning the carriage of black powder and percussion caps in checked baggage. The answer to each of your questions is that Federal regulations prohibit these items in checked baggage aboard commercial aircraft.

Thank you for your inquiry, and I hope this information is helpful.
Sincerely yours,
Lee R. Kair
Assistant Administrator
Security Operations

By checking in BP onto a commercial aircraft, not only is the hunter inviting prosecution under a number of different laws that could easily land him in chokey and with massive fines but he's also endangering the aircraft, passengers, crew and people on the ground.

Is it worth it?

You missed your true calling and should have been a lawyer, talk about leading questions and especially to some gov't bureaucrat that doesn't know a 1.1 from a 1.3 ordnance classifications!

I asked the same question thusly: "is loaded ammunition in their original or substitute plastic containers be carried on board aircraft" Answer: To summarize the US code briefly:

NO flammable powders can be carried (checked-in luggage) except for certain exceptions.

Exceptions are specified for small arms ammunition with the following restrictions in summary form:

Individual rounds of small arms ammunition (in other words, not loose powder).
No greater than .50 caliber.
No more than 11 pounds (5kg).
Packaged in a container designed to store small arms ammunition (which is what my 45-110 is)

I didn't ask about tracers, incendiaries or HE rounds. Just loaded hunting ammo. As to the other stuff about blowing up, I think I know just a "little" about airplanes and ordnance and if the environment in the cargo hold of an airplane gets to the point of igniting or detonating ammo, you have bigger issues to worry about. Hunters travel with this type of loaded ammo all the time with no problems, and finally ask yourself this question; knowing what I know about all this stuff (and you know I know), do you think for one moment I would get in an airplane or let my wife fly with me if I thought it dangerous? Steve, you've been wrapped around the axle with this issue for a long time now and you are not going to change your views and neither am I so we'll jsut have to agree to disagree on this one. jorge

Mate, it's not about a 1.1 or 1.3 classification, it's about an explosive or flammable classification. As you know, the two materials have very different sets of characteristics and that's why one is banned and the other is not.

The question I asked was the correct and completely accurate question because it referred to the exact material in question whereas the question you asked, dodged the issue of whether you were referring to BP or smokeless powder. If you don't ask the right question, you won't get the right answer.

I suggest you go back and ask them if cases loaded with BP (and tell them the exact classification of the material) are permitted. - Just because you fail to give all the information, doesn't change the catagory of the material and nor does it change it from an unsafe and illegal material to a safe and legal one.

The words you quote is referring to ordinary sporting ammo loaded with smokeless powder which is rated flammable not with BP which is rated as explosive.

Yes, I agree that with your background you should know a fair bit about ordnance on military aircraft. As I've said before, what you guys do is nothing short of Godlike...... hell, I can hardly land a Cessna or a Kitfox on solid ground but your experience of flying fighters off of and onto carriers doesn't mean you know the rules about what can and cannot be legally carried on commercial aircraft.

I've published plenty of evidence in the form of links that prove BP is illegal on commercial aircraft and explained why. I've published further proof in the form of an email from the TSA that confirm it and I've published proof of an EU ban on the transport of ALL ammo which is yet to be seriously enforced but sooner or later will be and I've got more enquries in to the US DoT and the senior risk assessor of a major airline and I'll come back with their replies when I get them.

As I said previously:


Let me make it quite clear that I'm not saying this to be awkward or make it difficult for hunters who want to travel with BP etc. That's actually the last thing I want to do.


The reason I'm saying this is that I want to try to make sure that no hunter ever ends up in jail for breaking the law and FAR more importantly than even that, I'm concerned that aircraft, passengers and crew stay safely in the air and don't end up in a smoking crater in the ground.

You of all people should be acutely aware of how important this issue is!