The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading 30-06, M1903a1, 110gr bullets & Blue DotGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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First, I'd like to say I have emailed seafire/B17G for Blue Dot data, since he seems to be Mr. Blue Dot. I have also found this quote from him searching through the forums along with other useful information. posted in a 30-06 thread. What I am trying to accomplish is to create a very light load to use in my 1903a1 in a 100 yard vintage military shoot here in East Tennessee. We shoot standing, unsupported so I'm not looking for benchrest type accuracy. My current load is 38gr IMR 4895 & a 168gr milspec HPBT. Even at this, the recoil gets a bit heavy after 30 rounds, but the recoil is secondary. My pet peeve is with the ladder peep sight all the way at bottom, I have to shoot 1 to 2 inches below the bottom edge of the target to hit the black, i.e. it shoots about 12" high. The targets (SR-1) are stapled to black rubber hangers, and with my old eyes, it's hard to see the front sight. I want a load where I don't have to aim off the paper to hit the bullseye. If the load is below 1250fps, that would be great since I could then use cast lead bullets and not jacketed bullets. I've done research on the web and have found "The Load" using 13 grains of Red Dot and some other loads using Unique, but I don't have either of those powders and nobody has a pound of it around here. Widener's has 4lb kegs and I live 2 miles from them, but I don't want to buy that much for an experiment. Plus, reading Seafire's posts, he believes Blue Dot is a better choice than either of those two and I already have several pounds of it that I use in 9mm, .357 & 45ACP. I have on hand military brass, cci & federal benchrest large rifle primers, blue dot, TAC, varget, IMR4895, W748, IMR4064, milspec 168gr, SMK 168gr, SMK 180gr, and Hornady 110 gr SP. The last being bought for this project. The perfect load for this project would shoot about 3" high using the ladder sight peep at 100 yards and be slow enough to use lead bullets without causing leading of the barrel. I'd like my grand kids (kids are only 12 now) to shoot this rifle that is already 90 years old, so I don't want to wear out the barrel. Any suggestions/data that you have will be appreciated. Thanks TripletDad | ||
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I would suggest you read through this thread started by Seafire where 338vt came close to a Ka-Boom. And notice in particular Ben Amonette's response since he works for th ecompany that makes Blue Dot. Another excellent thread is by Red C., where Seafire's Blue Dot "guessed at" Load Ka-Boomed Red's rifle. Red indicates it "might have been" a Double Charge. Perhaps it was, but it did not have to be, it could just be the Erratic Nature some of us have seen with Blue Dot being used incorrectly. I don't remember what this one was about, but my note indicates a Blue Dot load is TOO HOT in a 30-06 by Seafire. I don't remember if Seafire said it was too Hot, or if it was just one of his Loads that everyone should realize is too HOT. This link it to a thread where Dr. Oehler himself(surely you've heard of Dr. Oehler) mentions how there can be a 50% increase in Pressure simply due to the Powder Position within the Case. I believe his example was using a Revolver Cartridge, but the same applies for any Case when an inappropriate Powder is used. ----- I like Downloads and use some myself. However, I'd recommend you stick with DownLoads shown in the Manuals that have been Tested by the actual Manufactures. They have access to $$$Millions$$$ of Pressure Testing Equipment and people who actually understand Pressure Excursions, Detonations and the Secondary Explosion Effect. Or, you could stick with the Blue DOt Loads and peraps go down in history as the first casualty. It is just a matter of time. Best of luck to you and your kids. | |||
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Thank you for your reply Hot Core, I took the time to read all 4 threads, the first one is a doozy. However, I'm only dealing with 30-06 and not one of the sub .22 calibers. And I like TAC and Varget too much in my ARs to try blue dot there. With the numerous loads I know about in 30 caliber using Red Dot and Unique, even though I don't know if they were published by powder manufacturers, I feel fairly comfortable using the slower Blue Dot. Some others might not. Here are the results of my experiments in the back yard today, you might get a completely different result in your rifle. Rifle: M1903A1 Temp: 84 F Humidity: Not bad (highly technical term) Elevation: 1650 ft Wind: Gusty at 0-15mph from 11 o'clock Brass: Mix Military, mostly P8 75 headstamp with cases weighing 200+-2 grains. Primer: CCI 200 large rifle. Blue Dot: Lot BD134, circa 1990ish. Bullet : Hornady 110gr SP (#3010) Bullet Length: ~.825" COAL: 3.110" (~0.265 or 0.86 calibers seated) Each load was trickled on an RCBS 505 scale, verified with a digital scale at the time of seating the bullet. 18 total rounds were loaded, 3 each of 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 & 15 grains of Blue Dot. Rifle was in a rest and triggered via a string from 10 ft (paranoid while experimenting). This was not accuracy testing, this was to look for pressure signs and measure velocities looking for flaky spikes. I was single loading and shooting at 50 yards slightly downhill, so I would assume the powder was more toward the front of the case. No round exhibited pressure signs, no problem with extraction, no bright marks on case head, primers were still well rounded with no signs of backing out. The 11 and 10 grain BD rounds were sootier around the case mouth from what I assume was lower pressure. Results 15 gr: 1797, 1796, 1763 fps 14 gr: 1646, 1656, 1631 fps 13 gr: NA (didn't have Crony on), 1535, 1550 fps 12 gr: 1400, 1435, 1392 fps 11 gr: 1306, 1289, 1343 fps 10 gr: 1093, 1077, 1053 fps When the velocities were graphed, they looked fairly linear with a small upward bump at 11 grains. This bump is not nearly large enough for me to use the term spike. This was also the weight that had the largest velocity variation - although 3 rounds is not the world's best sample size. I have loaded 10 rounds each of 12 and 13 grains and will hopefully accuracy test them at 100 yards tomorrow at the range. I doubt I'll be able to use the crony there, so I will be observing the primers carefully. I will use a bench rest and probably trigger the rounds with my finger, although I will not have my cheek on the stock. I'll be looking through the peep sight from behind the stock. By my calculations, 150gr M2 ball @ 2798 fps at the muzzle (2740 76' from muzzle, ballistic coefficient .405) has a total drop of 2.34" at 100 yards. These loads with 110gr ballistic coefficient .256 have 8.12" and 9.9", moving the point of impact down (or point of aim up) ~6 to 7" which will be a big help. Unfortunately, 1543fps and 1409fps are a little faster than I wanted to run lead. If anybody has access to quickload, what kind of pressures are calculated with these loads? Does anybody see anything wrong with the test procedure? Sometimes, many heads are better than one. | |||
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Go to www.gmdr.com ( this is from RCBS)oregon trail cowboy load data it has info on light loads for 30-06 using shotgun and pistol powders | |||
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TripletDad, I am not sure you will beleive this but Quickload shows these loads have the potential to develop well over 100,000psi. Please bear with me here. If you take 13gr of Bluedot and burn it efficiently then you will get very high pressure. My point is that 13gr of bluedot has a lot of energy and every once in a great while the powder position, ignition sequence and such align just right to produce a very efficient burn with poor outcome for atleast the firearm. With powder that fills the case, the powder postion and ignition sequence are more or less fixed. -Unique | |||
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Well that's good to know even if it is scary. Can you run the same calculations with 10 grains of red dot and 10 of unique? With those loads so well published, you'd think somebody would have a problem that's all over the net. I've never used quickload before, so I'm not sure what it is capable of. How did you set it for an efficient burn? Is that where the powder instantly turns to gas? Wouldn't that be physically impossible? I don't know a whole lot about internal ballistics and appreciate you running the numbers for me. Anyway, got to shoot the 20 rounds at the range today, but no crony. About 82F, 90-100% humidity, 1450ft elevation. Wind was calm. Everything else the same as above. Started with the lower left target - in red. First shot was 9" low from where I thought it would have been. 2nd shot I aimed a bit above the target and got the bullet on paper. Since it was shooting low, I adjusted the ladder sight to the 500 yard mark and let loose with the third shot. Noticed everything was a little right, so put in a half hair of windage and shot the next 5 in a decent group. The lower right target - in green - was for the 13gr test rounds with no sight adjustments from the 12gr set. Point of impact came up around 2-1/2 inches. I have to say I was pleased with this group at 100 yards and iron sights on with a 90 year old rifle. The four shots in yellow were two each of 12 & 13 grain rounds shot standing unsupported. Just wanted to feel what the recoil was like. I would have to say it was less than an AR with walmart plinking ammo. I am pondering another question. The first round was much lower than I expected and calculated last night. Any ideas where I messed that up?   | |||
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Triplet Dad I use 18 gr of blue dot with a 110 gr sierra carbine bullet in my .308 1:12 twist with a CCI Large rifle primer. I use blue dot in my 30-06 with 130 grain softpoint with no recoil and great accuracy. When I started posting on this site, I asked for permission to post my results using Non-Standard powders in rifle cartridges because I didn't want to be a source of unrest on this site. I was assured that all reasonable approaches and info was encouraged. GMDR has loads for cast lead in 30-06, 30-30, etc using blue dot. In the front of their website is an excellant published paper which also contains a section explaining detonation. Take a look at the site when you get a chance. The cover many powders and many calibers. http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm I thank you for your informative post. While I would never ride a motercycle especially on a highway because I feel it is suicidal, many seem to enjoy it. These loads require some care because of the risk of double charging I find them less disturbing that the thought of riding a motor cycle. my 2 cents. rc | |||
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Red Dot and Unique are different than Blue Dot in that they are more 'fluffy' and are less deterred and as a result are less likely to be a 'problem'. I have shot many loads of all three and never had a 'problem', yet. I did notice Blue Dot did act a little squarrley occassionally. The best way to describe what I am concerned about is the following sequence which I suggest no one ever do. Set your rifle muzzle down and drop a bullet (not cartridge) it into your chamber and then take a cleaning rod and give it a smart smack so the bullet is partially started into the riflings. Pour 13 gr of blue Dot on top of that. Take empty but primed case. Place into chamber and then consider if you would pull the trigger. I suggest you do not as Quickload calculates 100kpsi under this scenario. This is the simplified view of the situation when the condtions are just right where powder is sitting against the bullet and a primer detonation forces the combination forward and powder deterrent deters powder ignition and powder is packable and the right pressure wave is just right and then you got a 'problem'.  | |||
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Unique, But could that happen under these circumstances? I just got some m2 ball out and measured COAL not to the bullet tip, but to the oglive using a comparator. This M2 ball round measures 3.642" and I know it is not jammed into the rifling. I don't know how much free bore is left, I've never measured the chamber. I just assembled another 110gr SP 13gr Blue Dot rounds and it measures 3.592" meaning there's at least a minimum 0.050" more free bore travel on the round with the Blue Dot. Is there any way to get those kind of pressures without the bullet starting in the lands? Thanks for crunching the numbers for me TD ****edit after getting a good nights rest after a 16 hour work day, the scenerio I'm making up above is I'm in a tree stand shooting straight down - but the bullet is not in the rifling lands. | |||
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Unique, I am just learning about these load prediction software packages (after reloading for 31 years, you would think I would be more "up" on these technologies. Could you please run your software against 11 grains of blue dot with 170 gr cast lead. This is the load published on the GMDR site data for a 30-06. Also if you have time, could you look at red dot at 7 grains with the same bullet. Thanks rc | |||
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3Dad, I don't think you quite understand what I was describing. Think of it this way. If you put 13 grs of BD in the 30-06 case then the powder is only occupying 25% of the available space. If the powder is sitting against the bullet (because you lowered the muzzle) then when you pull the trigger there is the remote possibilty due to a confluence of factors that the primer blast will push the bullet and the powder into the bore before the powder ignites. When this happens pressure go extreme. | |||
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I do not consider Quickload reliable for predicting results due to wide variation possible from powder position but here you go...  | |||
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You're right, I didn't understand, although I don't see how the powder and bullet can be pushed out without the powder igniting. Could you do a trace for 13 grains of blue dot and a 110gr SP under normal conditions like you did with the 11gr and 170gr bullet? With that only showing ~9k psi, I'd like to see what my load is under similar conditions. | |||
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3D, The powder may fail to ignite, or worse yet barely ignite, because of a weak primer aggravated by lower ambient temperatures aggravated by a powder with fairly high deterrent coating. Blue dot is a bit denser than unique or the other Dots and has a deterrent coating to slow down the ignition. There are members of this board, I am sure, who have experienced low density loads using ball powder that fail to ignite or produce squib loads. Use ball powders long enough in low density loads and you too will experience it. BTW, if you study the graph you will see the pressure is really low which again aggravates the situation in that the powder will burn slower at lower pressures. So weak primer pushes powder and bullet into bore, with powder now compressed and barley ignited and now you have compressed charge in restricted bore and powder burn begins to rise exponentially which raises pressure exponentially which causes powder to burn faster... Really can't describe it any simplier.  | |||
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I am going to do some pasting from the GMDR Paper that may help all of us. http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm "Of Note: a failed flash ignition, becomes a ragged conductive ignition, also known as Detonation. Extreme care must be exercised with loads near the flash ignition, ragged conductive ignition border. Detonation is a life threatening event.... Both Green Dot and Blue Dot proved to be fine choices. Blue Dot up near 20 gr size loads might be nearing flash ignition failure, or at least larger SDs have been seen. Green Dot cannot be loaded that heavily and as such SD growth was not seen." Based on my reading of the complete paper on the GMDR site, ONE issue with Blue Dot MAY BE (as in Might, as in who knows for sure, as in just my opinion) related to the thermodynamics of a primer and the charge weight/powder distribution/retardents manufactured into Blue Dot (specifically). The writer states that at 20 grains, Blue dot starts to display larger SD's and Might be nearing "Failed Flash ignition". In another portion of the paper "Failed Flash Ignition" is equated as the first requirement in achieving a "ragged conductive ignition" (The ignition condition that may be expressed in forms from Hang Fires though/to full Detonation). "By definition: if flash ignition is to occur, then independent of the powder distribution, there must be local to each grain to be ignited, sufficient energy to flash ignite that grain, ie, if there are local powder densities which run n times the average across the cartridge space, then there must be n times the energy value given above, integrated across the combustion space to still guarantee a flash ignition. Any energy level less than that results in ragged conductive ignition." I am not a physics guy, but, I have been a shooter and reloader for a long time. The paper that was published and is available on the GMDR site is the best explanation of the causes of detonation that I have found. I have reread this maybe a dozen times, trying to make sure I understand what is there, and, I tend to accept most of it. What's my point? Well Blue Dot should be watched because a ratio of powder to case size can be reached WITHIN PRESSURE LIMITATIONS where the next grain added can create a "Failed Flash Ignition". This will leave you with a ragged conductive ignition which CAN result in detonation. (This is not possible with Green Dot for instance because pressure signs will stop your load before Flash Ignition Failure can be caused by grain weight exceeding thermodynamics of the primer) The Failed Flash Ignition point can/will vary with the ratio of powder distribution, case size, and Primer heat. GMDR used mathmatical modeling and observing load changes that resulted in rapidly increasing SDs to determine that they were approaching "Failed Flash Ignition" and their paper recommends that in the case sizes they were using, that 20 grains of blue dot be considered MAX. NOT BECAUSE of Pressure signs but because of signs indicating that the might be approaching FAILED FLASH IGNITION (resulting in Ragged Conductive Ignition which can express itself as a detonation). I am a fan of Blue Dot loads as listed in GMDR, and I love 18 grains of Bluedot with my .308 and a 110 gr Sierra carbine bullet BUT, as Unique, Hot Core, and others point out, there are issues that are NOT obvious even if we are looking for them. The difference between a Successful and a Failed Flash Ignition resulting in Ragged Conductive Ignition is one of those that must be considered in the use of NonTraditional Powders in Rifle cartridges. My 2 cents again. | |||
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I've written Alliant, I'll post their reply if when/if I get it. Unique, would you mind posting the chart for a 10 grain Red Dot 110gr SP and a 10 grain Unique 110gr SP? I'd like to know what those are showing too. Thanks TD | |||
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RCHOUSER, A most excellent post. I came across the GMDR site a few years back aand consider it a good data point but as in anything technical, more data points are typically better. I do not take exception to anything posted there but think it is only part of the story. I have study reduced loads for sometime including discussions with Ben Amonette from Alliant. More importantly for me anyway, is that I have shot many thousands of them. As a matter of fact, one of the most accurate loads I found was 21.5 gr Bluedot with 152gr M2Ball. I noted in my experimentation that 1.74cc of CERTAIN flake powders gave the most accurate loads in 3-06 with 150gr jacket bullet. Turns out that 1.74cc is 12gr RedDot (The Load from Harris), 16gr Unique, and 21.5gr BlueDot, 25 gr 2400. There seems to be an interesting trade off at 1.74cc between density and burning rate that makes this work nicely from an accuracy point-of-view in atleast the 30-06. As side note, I hand dip every reduced load to eliminate the chance of a double load. So back to Blue Dot. I did experience some irregular shots and that's when I started to feel a little uneasy about how much I didn't know. I started to realize that accurate doesn't mean safe. I have found Blue Dot to be quite a bit tempermental relative to the other flake powders and that'a when I started studying low density loads. The GMDR discussion you posted seems to be focused on higher density loads and ragged ignition which does not preclude low density loads being unsafe for other reasons. In other words because GMDR did not discuss low density/weak primer scenario's doesn't mean GMDR thinks they are not a concern. Again, I really liked your post. -Unique | |||
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Triplett Dad: I never did thank you for your initial post with the targets and range results. GREAT POST. I use Blue Dot in .223, 30-30, .308, and 30-06. As you can see between Unique's posts (who also shoots blue dot) and my posts, we suspect/know that there is something about Blue Dot that needs to be conidered and I would love to nail it down. SeaFire discovered anomolies when he reached certain densities in 30-06 and reported that these anomolies would cause him to alter his orignal "rule of thumb" for blue dot. Alliant posted a consumer warning about blue dot in .41 Magnums. Again not a reason NOT to shoot it, just that I must be aware that there IS something out there. Unique, I appreciate and agree with you that there are other risks besides ragged ignition and detonations. This one is just something that I have always been warned about (detonations) and never really had a clue as to what/why faster pistol powders and low charges would work and slower powders with low charges were an immediate issue. What I took from all this is that Faster igniting nitro based flake powders tend to accept flash ignition and don't require the density needed for a traditional rear to front ignition. Kind of like trying to start a fire with the logs end to end or not even touching vs a stack of logs where one will help start the next. If the logs are laid end to end but have been soaked in gasoline, they will light with a single match. (Simplistic, I know) All: I will continue to shoot blue dot in 30-06, 30-30, .223. I do this because I choose to. It is very consistant for me in these calibers. I also shoot SR4759 and am very happy with it's consistancy. Again, thanks to Unique and Triplett Dad. Triplett Dad, you have a great amount of information that I will add to my 30-06 blue dot file of information. Great posts of your targets. thanks rc | |||
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You could void all this excess pressure speculation by using load manual reduced loads such as those Speer provides for the '06 using SR4759, IMR 4227 and AA5744 powders in their #14 load manual. Widener's should sell 1# cans of these powders. They have a start load for their 100gr RNSP bullet that, if your rifle weighs 8#'s, produces less than 3#'s of recoil and goes 1550fps. You can gamble your eyes or hands or face on Blue Dot reduced loads, but do you feel comfortable giving that ammo to your grandchildren? | |||
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 Is this onefunzer and HC singing from the same Hymnal?  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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If you don't want to get reamed for using Blue Dot, check out Trail Boss. Love shooting precision and long range. Big bores too! Recent college grad, started a company called MK Machining where I'm developing a bullpup rifle chassis system.  | |||
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I don't think so! See, HC has proved BlueDot to pose a high pressure risk cause he measured the CHE. I, on the other hand, have never loaded BlueDot into cases larger than the .223 Remington. In fact, NO other case but the .223 Remington. I just think (and I'm allowed) that a tiny pinch of pistol powder rattling around in an '06 case with that much powder capacity is a bad idea; maybe even a recipe for disaster. Why gamble when Speer has proven safe reduced power loads available? Excuse my verboseness, roger, but I try to distance myself from HC whenever possible. | |||
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onefunzr2: You are absolutely right. I (for one) would NOT give anyone cartridges loaded with Blue Dot at this point. I do not share blue dot loads with anyone that is not ASKING specifically for Blue Dot information. I do still shoot it and I still discuss performance and risk mitigation with other people already using it. My comments in the this thread were meant as a discussion of what may be some causes of Detonations (or leads you towards them). It was not a justification of Blue Dot. I have always wondered WHY detonations can occur with reduced starting loads in some powders and other powders can be greatly reduced. Why can a load be functional to a point and then become unpredictable and yes, dangerous, at the next step of increase or decrease for reasons that have no apparent link to pressure (overloading). I have SR-4759, Trail Boss, Unique, Red Dot, and the Speer 6 manual giving SR-4759 loads for all cartidges that the list in the manual. I shoot these in all cartridges at times depending on my objective. Thanks to all for their input. rc | |||
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And I am much obliged for that.  | |||
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No, not yet, not enough experience. But given my children are 12 and hopefully it will be at least 20 years before my assumed grandchildren would be shooting, I might be ok with it by then. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading 30-06, M1903a1, 110gr bullets & Blue Dot
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