Wed. at the range there was a group of what I consider avid elk hunters. The smallest rifle in the group was a brand new 30 winchester short Mag. The largest was a short barreled Ruger #1 in .375H&H magnum.The young fella with the short Mag.stood about 5'4" and weighed perhaps about 145 pounds. He was dressed in well worn Levi genes and jacket and had a well groomed 1/2" beard. He gave the appearance of one rough tough hombre and prooved it every time he shot that brand new rifle.He and his cohorts had been hunting the Maybelle Colorado area for the past few years.

We pleasantly chated a bit and I asked him what velocity he was getting. One thing lead to another and I put one 150gr. bullet of his and one 180 grainer over my Oehler. The 150 was almost 3300 fps and the 180 about 3100fps.

He had never fired a 6.5x55 before, which I than was shooting so I passed the rifle to him with 3 rounds of 140 gr.bullets loaded at around 2500fps. The rifle is a sporterized military with the original 29 1/2" barrel with a home grown recoil compensator screwed on. The barrel was threaded when I got it so why not?

This young man was stunned. He didn't get hurt!!!!!! He had hung out with this group of macho guys all his gun toting carrier and accepted the fact that rifles just normally kicked the shit out of you. The short magnum was suppose to be a step down from his punishing .338. He shot a 1 14" group and than asked me if I thought the 6.5 x55 would really kill any thing. I told him that I never used it on elk but did kill some large mule deer with it and let him know that in the Nordic countries they favor it as a moose cartridge. He ran to his Ford 250 for a pencil and paper. Returning he asked me if I could recommend any other fifles that kicked less than he had but would kill elk. Well I didn't want to confuse him with a long list so I recommended the 7x57. As he wrote it down he mentioned he had never heard of it but was definitly going to get a 6.5 or a 7. I told him that if he did these guys he was with might not let him hang out with them any more.

I left the range wondering just how many magazine controled hunters we have or does it stem from hanging out in the wrong gun shops??

I'll tell ya; computers and forums such as this have really expanded the world I enjoy. I haven't expressed myself to Saheed before but I want take this opportunity to thank you for this nice gift. roger

I think that 99% of the first time hunters buy what their friends shoot. Who ever is the loudest and/or most opinionated in the group seems to set the tone for what the group uses.

Kind of like why on some websites, all you see are people who love Remingtons or Pre-64 Wins, etc. Soon or later you gravitate to the group that you feel the most comfortable with and you reinforce the group's preferences.

I have some mags and what people would call stanard calibers. Each has its place I would not recommend a mag for someone who doesn't shoot a lot.

When Iam ask what caliber a person should buy I most often or not recommend a 30-06, 308, 270 ect follow after wards.

Its just hard not to recommend a 06 when some one with limit shooting time is asking for a rifle manly for deer hunting with a trip for elk the might come along or a black bear now and then. Moose and Grizzly well be cover as well.

Sure my 300wm ,338wm and 416 well work and might be a better choice for something big and hairy in the thick stuff. But that is because I just like using differant stuff. Over all a 06 with good bullets is hard to beat.

Here's another aspect of magnum mania that most have not considered.

How many prospective hunters have been turned off by the recoil and blast of unnecessarily large rifles? How many men are hunting without their wife and without their adolescent kids because the gun they were given was too much too handle?

I'm talking about things like handing a 12 year old boy an '06 to kill a white tail at 50 yards from a blind. What for? A 250 Savage, or a 35 remington would do the job just as well, and would not run the prospective hunters into the video arcade for cover!

JMO, Dutch.

I bought into Boddington and the magnum craze. Looking for a 6.5x55 for the wifey and I as we speak. I suck as a hunter so I might as well enjoy shooting at the range and not have to deal with the shoulder ache of carrying a gorilla gun up 12,000 foot ridges for a week at a time. By the way, my 300 Gorilla gun is under the selling section here.

I alway recommend a 30-06 Springfield for the one rifle shooter/hunter. With 110 gr. bullets its super for varmints, with 150 gr. bullets its great for deer and antelope, and with 165 or 180 gr. bullets its great for big dear, elk, bear, or moose. You can load it down for kids or hot for long-range elk hunting. There is a fabulous supply of bullets for the 30 caliber, and with the Hornady Light Magnum stuff off the self, you'll never need to reload to reach the '06's potential. With reloading the '06 comes into it's own. The kick and muzzle blast, when loaded hot, are all an average grown man wants to deal with. Also, it's inherently accurate and guns and ammo abound around the world.

Aside from the recoil, one of the problems with magnum mania and new shooters/hunters is that they don't understand the effects of wind, bullet drop, and the like when shooting at long range. Too many times, they get an umpty-ump manglum and let fly at rediculous ranges. When the deer/elk/caribou fails to drop, they just figured they missed and leave a wounded animal to die and rot.

Not to turn this into an '06 love fest, but one of the good things about magnum mania, is that a lot of inexperienced hunters don't realize how far an '06 will shoot and kill accurately, so they get within reasonable ranges before squeezing the trigger.

I'm not an 06 guy & I think magnums have their place, but I usually recommend a .30-06 for a prospective elk hunter's first rifle. It just works w/o all the thump & thunder of something bigger. Magnums are like hunting w/ an ultra small big game caliber (ie, .243 for deer & .25-06 for elk), for the experienced shooter not a newbie.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Soon or later you gravitate to the group that you feel the most comfortable with and you reinforce the group's preferences.

Frank I like your pespective. and you did get one of my points. "GROUP MANIA"

I have a Belgen made commercial Mauser in 06 that prints some nice groups. I doubt if I will ever hunt with it again even though I know it is proven a great cartridge; Only because it is far more punishing on the bench and because of that sporterized and modified other good rifles that I have became more confident with and received far less punishment punching paper. We grow a little tenderer the older we get. I don't know for sure but maybe even a little smarter. roger

I too fell into the magnum craze when I bought my first rifle ever--a 7mm Remington Magnum. Fortunately, it didn't scar me permanently, but it was a lot of gun to start with, especially when I intende to use it for deer hunting in MD and PA. (Longest shot I've ever had to take was 75 yards). Needless to say, I'v since learned that big isn't always better, and although I still love the 7RM, it's not my primary deer cartridge any more!

As a side note, my brother-in-law recently invited me out west for an elk hunt and laughed hysterically at the idea of using a "little 7 Rem. Mag." for elk. I told him that when we get out there, he'll have to put his money where his mouth is! Just for kicks, maybe I'll do it with the 7mm-08 and really scare him!

The main reason for the popularity of "big guns" is the gun writers. How often have you read somthing like " The bullet hit a branch and struch further back. If I hadn't been shooting a **** the animal would have been lost". End the B.S. and the problem will go away in time.
Good Luck!

I enjoy shooting a mag rifle just as much as a guy who shoots a 30-06. I started back in the 60's with one and when the recoil started to bother me I just put a brake on. I think alot has to do with so many gun rags and the flavor of the month. If a guy is into reloading he pretty much has an understand if he buys a mag it's got recoil more so than the nonreloader. Be nice if a guy before buying a rifle could shoot alot of different calibers and then make a choice. Just my .02

Wel Most guys who know me on this forum don't even need to guess what my 2 cents is....

First Roger, great story and thanks for making a convert back to what is sane. I have experienced the same story multiple times. Each year at Elk season, several guys always end up asking me to "zero" their rifle, since they see me hitting targets with my rifle and they are not with theirs. 98% of the time they are there with a new magnum or one they have not hunted with for several seaons because of the recoil.

I see a pattern of guys who own magnums, that is sort of funny. They hunt one season and have the rifle kick the crap out of them, so they are afraid of it. Come next elk season, they skip it because they remembered how bad the mag kicked them. This continues for a couple of more elk season until the guy finally forgot JUST HOW HARD that last kick had been.. So now he has excitement about going out again this year and the cylce starts over again.

A lot of these guys who are shooting these magnums that ask me to zero them because they are not hitting the target, are surprised when I shoot it and get a nice zero and group dead center. Most of these rifles are zeroed, but the guys are flinching so bad.

Most just won't believe that a properly placed 6.5 mm or up bullet will take down an Elk! A Deer hunter doesn't even need the 30/06! A 6mm or a 25 caliber will do the same job. A 260 or a 7/08 is a great Elk caliber in my book. A 6.5 mm with a 140 grain bullet or a 7mm with a 150 and up grain bullet is more than plenty with a good shot placement.

My favorite experience of big magnum vs, smaller caliber non magnum, is shooting at the range one day, several guys at the other end of the line were shooting a 300 Win Mag. They had all the fancy toys, and also deluxed out with the range finders etc. They were shooting milk jugged size concrete targets our range hangs up at 500 yds and 500 meters, and small silouette animals at that distance.

I myself was just shooting a few shots at my favorite small rock at 725 yds, so I did not set up a target. They kinda drifted down and asked what I was shooting at, and I told them. While one asked me the distance, the other whipped out his range finder and said 723 yds.

I shoot at it all the time so I have it dialed in. They noticed the scope was a 3 x9 Leupold and they had the big varmint scope on their Remington. They asked me what power I was using and I said 6 power.

So them looking at the rock with binoculars, I took a shot and of course the dust flew off of it, so being fellow shooters they got excited.

Then of course they asked about the rifle and caliber. It was a 6.5 x 57 on a Model 70 action with a 28 inch heavy magnum sized barrel, factory stock. They had never heard of the cartridge, and I explained it to them, about being a 257 Roberts necked up to 6.5 mm. One of the guys knew of the Roberts, saying, " oh yeah, my grandpa hunted with a 257 Roberts! He took Elk and everything else with that thing."

So when I offered if they wanted to take a shot, the shooter jumped at the chance. They looked with interest at the shell, as it has the bullet seated way out there. When the guy shot the rifle, he hit the rock but jumped off of that rifle like it was on fire.

He was excited as hell and told his buddy, " you have to shoot this sucker! This thing has no recoil at all!" the other guy looked at me and I said, "Go ahead!"

He shot it and same thing! Then the questions flew about the rifle and the cartridge and where did I get it etc. So I explained it was a PacNor Barrel on a Model 70 action, with a 1 in 7 twist.
I was shooting 107 grain Sierra match bullet at about 2800 fps. ( Sierra tech guys recommended that as the most accurate velocity, even tho I can push it easily to 3300 plus)

When they asked about the elevation used on the scope, the guy responded real surprised, that is flatter shooting than our 300 Mag! So I asked them what load they were shooting. Typical 180 grain Ballistic Tip/ 300 Mag load.

I assumed they were Elk hunters, even tho this was in April, figured they were just out practicing, with a day off as this was mid week.
I told them, that I had found ballistic tips blow up at mag speeds so I recommended a partition would be better. Their response was that they pay a nickel a piece for the 180 grain ballistic tips!

Well, I can see why you use them for Elk Hunting instead of the partitions then. But the guy, told me, OH we don't hunt with them, we just shoot with them.

So I asked who did they know to get such a great price for them. "OH, we work for the government in law enforcement so Nosler sells directly to our agency for a nickel apiece."

NOT immediately seeing what government law enforcement agency needed a 300 Mag, I asked them what agency they were with. OH we are with the FBI's sniper and counter sniper team out of Medford... My turn to be a little surprised.

We need a sniper team from the FBI here in Southern Oregon??? Oh yeah, we do a lot of work with particularly DEA! ( Lovely!, so much for living in a quiet peaceful tranquil place!, crooks are everywhere I guess).

But then back to the rifle, they were writing down every ounce of info on my 6.5 x 57, from barrel twist to the loads I use in it, who made the barrel, what brand of Reload dies I use, who was the gunsmith ( oh yeah we know Kevin Wyatt real well, he does a lot of work for us). I recommended if they did want to get one, that they would be better off with a 6.5 x 55, just for easier availability of brass.

When we were comparing trajectory also, with my load in the 6.5 x 57, I had to adjust for 14 inches of elevation for the 725 yds, with a 107 grain Sierra match bullet. In the 300 Mag with the 180 grain ballistic tip, they had to set their elevation at 18 inches high at 100 yds!

Between less recoil and flatter trajectory, that rifle and caliber sure made a big impression on that two FBI guys!


I'll give mag cases this tho, they are more flexible if you like to download cartridges such as with Blue Dot and 2400, etc.

and Dutch, ever try downloading the 30/06 for your son, to say about 2250 fps with a 150 grain SP? 3.5 inches high zeroed at 100 yds, will put it dead on at 200! I have done a lot of loads for kids locally who inherited Grandpa's 30/06, doing that. When Dad realized the 50 to 60 % reduction in recoil and still hitting dead on at 200 yds, they are calling me back up and asking me to reload some for them.

I took a 650 lb cow elk in Montana a few year ago with that load and a 165 grain ballistic tip at 175 yds with the animal at a dead run. She went 40 to 60 yds and piled up. Bullet, went thru both lungs and the upper half of the liver, and was mushroomed on the of far side under the hide.
So if it will take a 650 Elk cow, it will take any deer walking the earth! Shot placement, not 'brute magnum power"!

cheers
seafire

I started out with a .30-06 at age fifteen, and there's no question that beginning hunters are better off -- even for elk -- with an '06, .280 Rem., .308 Win., etc. Of this cartridge class, I still think the .30-06 is the best way to go, and I can't think of anything that better combines power, flexibility, and shootability than it does.

LOTS of experienced hunters who are all a-twitter over big cartridges simply don't shoot that much during the year, and these guys would be better off with standard cartridges as well.

I used to work sight-in days at our local gun club, and I've seen hundreds of once-a-year hunters of all ages sit down at the bench and flinch from the first press of the trigger to the last. Some of these guys couldn't hold minute-of-foot, but they DID have their Seven-Em-Em Magrums, Three-hundurds, Three-Three-Eights, and that there's what counted -- not the flinchin'!

On the other hand, I'd seen teenagers with 6mms and .308s sit down and shoot extremely well.

AD

Wasn't it ol' Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood) who in a "Dirty Harry" sequel summed up the situation by saying:

"A man HAS TO know his limitations!"

Seafire, both my young'uns now shoot 270's.

It is a wonder to behold what a 12 year old boy, with a new rifle, plenty of clay targets on the berm, and a bucket of ammo can do! Especially if the ammo runs 130 gr. bullets at about 2200 fps.

What is really amazing that you can fire thirty or forty rounds without heating the barrel up. You can do all sorts of "quick follow up" shot training, without being afraid of ruining a barrel.

Or creating a flinch for the next 30 years. FWIW, Dutch.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Wel Most guys who know me on this forum don't even need to guess what my 2 cents is....

First Roger, great story and thanks for making a convert back to what is sane. seafire

Nice novella , Prop Job.

If you keep this writing going at the present rate you're going to have to quit working to make time for your shooting.

Open side note: My son just returned from his fourth and last tour in Iraq. They saddled him to a desk until his retirement in a few month. Interestingly enough the plane (KC 130) he crewed on is going back. Both he and the plane are about the same age. Now that's a real prop job. roger

I hunted Elk last year with an aquaintance who brought along his 300 WM. He wasnt sure if it would be accurate because "he hadnt shot it since last year". So I took him to a hillside and said, OK lets put a few rounds through it and find out". He refused to shoot it!! So I did. Pretty pathetic, I thought to myself. It actually didnt kick any worse than my 35 Whelen, just more of a jolt than a push, but why own a gun that you refuse to shoot?

He clearly had a glaring lack of experience, I wouldnt mind helping with that, but because of his unwillingness to engage himself I wount be hunting with him anymore.

The bottom line here is that he was told by some yahoo at the sporting goods outlet that he "NEEDED" a 300 mag for big tough Elk. Said that his 7mm RM wasnt enough.

I dont care what anyone else wishes to hunt with, it is morons like that though who drive me nuts. Had Matt been counseled by someone more down to earth I could have possibly gained another good hunting partner.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
Seafire, both my young'uns now shoot 270's.

It is a wonder to behold what a 12 year old boy, with a new rifle, plenty of clay targets on the berm, and a bucket of ammo can do! Especially if the ammo runs 130 gr. bullets at about 2200 fps. Dutch.

Blue Dot Dutch? roger

I think a lot of this is down to many hunters not really being keen shooters...By that I mean not being real interested in different rifles, reloading, balistics ect and they buy a rifle in X caliber on recommendation and then stick with it...

These days if somebody asks me about what rifle to get for stalking in the UK, I usually recommend the 6.5x55mm or 7x57mm, but more importantly stress the need to try a particular caliber/ rifle combination for themselves before buying as rifle weight, stock design and rifle fit have a big influence on felt recoil...

I have also found some folks shooting improves if you simply encourage them to wear ear plugs and defenders..good hearing protection really does make things more comfortable at the range.

Regards,

Pete

Yup! I see the same thing at our local range all the time. Some poor cheechako just bought the latest & greatest Eargensplittenloudenboomer to take caribou hunting. He proceeds to sight in & shoots patterns instead of groups. Some yo-yo told him he needed this small bore artillery piece. The only thing I worry about is if our wonderboy should hit an animal, there's a fair chance of it being wounded & lost. I fear for the animal.
My two hunting rifles are my .270 Win. and my .338 Mag. The .270 is intended for sheep & caribou. In a pinch, I could use it for moose & grizzly. The .338 is for moose, elk & the larger bears. I always use premium bullets and am quite confident in their/my performance. As far as I'm concerned, these guys have been brain washed by their friends & the rag writers. I think that to a man, they would all be much better off with a .270, .30-06 size chambering as a first rifle. But what do I know?
Bear in Fairbanks

As a long time hunter and avid reloader, I am not sure I can agree that magnums produce unnecessary recoil or are difficult to shoot.

I started with small caliber rifles as a boy, and now as I start to push 50 I enjoy my magnums as much as I ever did.

My 300 Dakota doesn't feel all that different from my 270 Winchester.

My 404 Jeffery does kick, especially with 400 grain bullets over 2500 fps, but when shooting it off hand it is hardly noticeable.

There is a trick I learned in shooting magnums: slow squeeze on the trigger, let it surprise you when it goes off.

Garrett

A .300 magnum is too much gun?!

A .300 magnum kicks so hard it hurts?!

You sure this guy wasn't a squirrel hunter?

Bartsche,

No, they are actually based on Hodgdon's youth loads/ 4895 loads.

I used to shoot quite a bit of blue dot loads, but the potential of a double charge has led me to change to 4895, or the SR loads. It takes a little more powder, so it is a little more expensive. The piece of mind is worth it, though. FWIW, Dutch.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
A .300 magnum is too much gun?!

A .300 magnum kicks so hard it hurts?!

You sure this guy wasn't a squirrel hunter?

That is because you are one tough macho guy. wait till you turn 70.

Dutch that is pennies well spent. With the faster powders more caution must be taken. I have also found with some of the medium burning rate reduced loads and some of today's brass you got to watch out for gas in the face.The necks do not seal properly. Some of the radical fast burning reduced loads also will singe an eye brow. roger

Most people don't like heavy recoil. You would never know it by reading some topics on this forum as many here like the big bores.

I know many guys in their 50's and 60's who have real problems with recoil. All of them are shoulder problems. These are serious problems requiring surgury. I have read of eye problems but nobody here complains about that.

As for myself I shoot 300 mags once in a while. I never really took to them but I can do it so far.

On the other hand I like to make a large humane wound on all hunted animals. So will continue as best I can to shoot powerful guns.

As to the 6.5 mm I suppose it's just fine for "moose" but I will try to use bigger bullets as long as I can.

I hope that every shooter has the opportunity to own a wide variety of firearms from Mild to Magnum, all have their place. But overall I think the best choice for everyone is to use the gun that they like instead of what someone else thinks they should use.......DJ

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
A .300 magnum is too much gun?!

A .300 magnum kicks so hard it hurts?!

You sure this guy wasn't a squirrel hunter?

That is because you are one tough macho guy. wait till you turn 70.

Hey hoss, you said he was a young fella and full of piss and vinegar, not a geriatric patient.

And I'm not such a tough macho guy as all that. In fact, I'm closer to 70 than I am to 25.

Is a magnum rifle needed for everything? Hell no. But are they all muscle-bruising, bone-crushing, flinch-inducers? Also hell no.

And if the day comes that I think a .300 magnum hurts too much to shoot, I'll hang it up and start peeling spuds--or shooting squirrels with my .22.

Was in the gunshop last spring, a young fella (I'm just 46, this guy ws 20 years younger) was buying a 3 1/2" 12 guage for turkey hunting....big stuff here in 'Bama. He was afraid of hte recoil....seems the guys he hunted with all had this set up and were teasing him about the recoil. (Yeah, I bet they were) Anyhow, I asked him how it was that in the old days people killed lots of turkey with 1 1/4 ounce loads in 16 guages...."A 16??????" I'm not sure he'd ever even heard of it. I then asked him what he deer hunted with, "A Browning in 300 Win Mag" I told him he'd have no trouble with recoil.

Funny, I started off with the 30-06, my Daad always told me it was too much gun for deer. I like my 44 mag Handirifle, kills 'em just fine. People think I'm nuts when I suggest the 30-30. I wonder how many elk have been killed with that humble little casrtridge? I'm gonna take a 38-55 out this year. Ought to be about perfect for whitetails, 265 grian bullets at circa 1900 fps. When you can't see 'em any farther than 60 yards or so , just how much gun does it take?

Funny thing about the 7 Rem Mag is it started out life as a wildcat developed by an outfitter for his customers who had magnumitis but were recoil shy, if not intolerant (Gee, I wonder how that condition developed????). Now the really weird part, it is a ballistic twin to the handloaded 30-06. Are we coming full circle?

I think most people who have a shoulder problem from big guns probably had an undelying problem or damage from an earlier time. There may come a time when deterioration starts from aging and shooting of most types can aggravate that sort of condition as it worsens naturally.
On the otherhand, I do think a steady diet of super-magnum handgun shooting (especially revelover and light single-shots) can lead to wrist and elbow problems.
People should hunt with what they shoot well but the fact is, some people make the conscious decision to shoot powerful guns well and when they acheive that goal, there is no reason to disrespect the decision to hunt with too much gun.
As an addition to Allen's comment, some of these guys at the range are pre-convinced that they're going to get hurt before they ever pull the trigger on their brand new "big" gun so they never have a chance to enjoy them for what they are.
I'm sure (or at least I hope) everyone has experienced that occaision at the range where a young person or smaller lady tries someone's magnum; shoots it politely and says thanks without ever a complaint about recoil. No one told them ahead of time to dislike it. The comments I get in that situation range from "that was neat but the gun is too heavy for me" or "wow, I have to get one of these" or something similar.
As a disclaimer, I hunt with about a dozen different calibers and talk alot about how good the 220 Swift is for dear and hogs, too. I guess you could say I go both ways

Magnum mania should be accompanied with
recoil-reducing mania. IE, fix gun so
recoil is lessened. Most don't want to add wt, reducers, different pads, etc, as it
wouldn't be "original". I see it all the time,
and I tell them there ain't a law against
fixing them to shoot comfortably..Ed

Chunking all the "need a kicking magnum" crap aside and now talk to a person who grew up in Western Colorado in the 60s. I have been there and did that for many years and you couldn't pack the deer in my house killed with the old 30/30. We have hunted and killed Deer, Elk, Moose, Antilope with a .270 using 130 grain bullets. The .260 Remington will do just as good as well. All my friends who just keep racking up the big mule deer and elk every year use thier dad's old 30/06. One of thier wives uses a .243 to hunt both deer and elk with and does so sucessfully every year. But all these people have been taught from the first shoot that it is shot placement that is important not the size of the rifle or it's bullet or the recoil and blast. Quite a different teaching. One feller and his wife has used the .243 for years and with shot placement bring home the deer and elk every year. Been there did that, know it is true!

My father is 76, and his favorite deer rifle is a 300 Weatherby Magnum I got for him 10 years ago.

His trick: He never sights it in (he gives it to me to sight in for different loads for him).
He only pulls the trigger to shoot a deer, and rarely misses.
He claims it doesn't kick any more than his 30-06.

Garrett

I almost forgot about my neighbor who lived next to us while growing up in Colorado. Her name was Mrs. Hejl. She always got several deer a year. She used a 3OO Savage. Small,light and deadly. Hey you can use what you like but don't try to bullshit people who know difference between shooting just to be shooting and controled shot placement. And by the way I can load a 300 magnum to kick like a 30/06 but why do it when my 260 does the trick better anyway. But this is America and there is room for those that are impressed with spending a lot of money and listening to impressive sales pitchs and buying what you don't need. When I think of the weak minded people that do this, the thing that tcomes to mind is; "Rave on catshit someone will come along and cover you up" A good example of all this crap is in Africa where the mighty white hunter comes with his 500 Jeffery, 458 mag, or 600 nitro express to down an elephant. When he leaves the old game wardens thin out a few rogues with thier aging 6.5 military rifles with shot placement.

Funny how when you go to the range the experienced shooter/hunters look at the guy with the new loudenboomer mag with a skeptical look and wonder what they need that thing for, are you goin elephant hunting? The inexperienced/new shooters look at the same guy and oh and awe, wow thats the cats ass. He procedes to beat the shit out of himself and is unsuccessful in his sight in attempt cause it hurts too much and he now has a headache and frightful flinch, the other young guys are still ooh and awe and are planning their next purchase of a gun with enormous cases, meanwhile the old guys are sitting there shaking their heads and whacking the gongs at 600yds everytime and killing their elk/moose every year. Some of these guys never learn to shoot their super mags and you see them year after year at the range/hunting still missing their target or animal. Some of them get downright upset when they have missed the 600 yd gong 5 times in a row and you step up and whack it everytime with a gun that is too small to kill anything with. They get really mad when you shoot some big critter with a good shot at 400 yds and kill it with one shot, later they tell you that they missed three elk already this season , they think they hit one or two though, but eventually they finally got one at 150 yds but hit it in the hindquarters and are so thankful they had a big magnum cause anything else wouldn't have killed it.

Here's my take on this: First I was in the guiding business for quite a while and so have seen lots of hunters show up with lots of diffenent rifles. The results are generally consistant with the advice I got when I started guiding many, too many, years ago. The advice?

If the "sport" opens his gun case and there is a well used 06 or 270, 308 or 7X57 (lets call these Standard caliber rifles) you've got a winner and you're gonn'a have a good week. Now, if the guy opens up the box and there lays a new 300 Win mag, 300 Wheatherby or, god forbid, a 338 Win. You are going to have very little fun.

To this affect I NEVER was asked to sight in, or "check the scope adjustment", on a Standard caliber rifle for a client. I had to do this countless times for the owners of 300 mangnum and larger rifles, because they couldn't keep all their shots on the paper at 100 yds from a bench rest. You think I'm kidding? Ask any elk guide or African PH and you'll hear the same story.

On two occations I had my clients GIVE me their brand new, high end 338's, with the scopes, after the hunt was over because they never wanted to see the "damn thing" again. Both rifles shot beautifully, I also got rid of both of them because I don't like getting crap knocked out of me every time I pull the trigger either!

I took my 35 Whelen to Africa and my PH was very happy, surprise! He showed me the targets for all the clients that year, most shot 3 to 6 inch groups at 50 meters, no again, I'm not kidding. The targets with tiny groups, pretty much one hole at 50, came form the 2, out of 10, cliehts who were shooting Standard caliber rifles. Who had the highest percentage of bang-flop one shot kills? Right, the standard caliber shooters, is there a trend here?

I think that the main reason new, and even some so-called experienced hunters, buy "hell-fire" mangnums is because they really haven't shot or even seen shot all that many head of big game. The more dead stuff you see on the ground the more you will realize the 06 is one hell of an effective caliber! The other thing you get to know is that there are 3 critical things to killing game, SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT and of course SHOT PLACEMENT.

But what the hell do I know, I've only seen about 500 plus deer shot, hundreds of antelope, a couple of hundred elk and a truck load of bear. Practical knowledge doesn't hold the same romance as the imagination.

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
Here's my take on this: .

Nice post HM roger

quote:

Originally posted by BigRx:
Wasn't it ol' Harry Callahan (Clint Eastwood) who in a "Dirty Harry" sequel summed up the situation by saying:

"A man HAS TO know his limitations!"

yeah but he also was the guy who was going after a killer, supposedly shooting a 458 Win Mag at 500 yds from a sniper position.... I love Dirty Harry Movies, but it does reek of Hollywood.

Cheers
seafire

[Q UOTE]Originally posted by mrlexma:

Hey hoss, you said he was a young fella and full of piss and vinegar, not a geriatric patient.

And I'm not such a tough macho guy as all that. In fact, I'm closer to 70 than I am to 25.

[/QUOTE]

I'm the geriatric one but this young man was really a slight built fellow with a standard length 13.5" butt to trigger stock when it shuold have been 12" trying to keep up with his Magnumitize, California urban buddies. How do you spell relief?

In his case it was 6.5 X55. I'm 250 pounds down from 350 and recoil still can hurt. The fact is we don't need it or even have to prove we can take it.You might say we even get a little smarter the more geriatric we get. roger

Finally some people with the same truth what I have been trying to tell for years. Oscar Makonka and Hunter Montana you both speak my lanuage in experience and "been there done that" sense. You couldn't pack the Deer and Elk in my house my uncle shot with his well oiled 270 and you couldn't stack the deer in my house my dad killed with his 1952 30/30 Winchester. You both know what I mean for sure. I am going back home to Western Colorado to hunt with my friends this year and guess what I am taking? 300 mag, 30/338, 7MM, 458? No a 260! Shot placement above all else! I know a man down here that kills 6-8 deer on the average each year with a youth model .233. Shot placement above all else! Most poachers use a .22 magnum, shot placement above all else! But this is America and bullshit runs deep, but those with wisdom do not walk through it.