Saw some of Remington's reduced load offerings on sale locally at Bi Mart.... so I bought a box in 30/06....

offerings on the shelf were, 30/06 270, 7 Mag and 300 Win Mag.....

The box claimed 50% recoil reduction and 200 yd performance......They have the zeroing info they use on the back....

Bullet was a 125 grain corelokt.....

Pulled the bullet on one case, and the powder looks like IMRs manufacture....the charge was 36 grains.....

My guess is that the powder being used is either 4198, 3031 or 4895....

I will have to chronograph a few of the factory loads and then load up some with 36 grains of the above 3 powders and see what comes closest to performance....

also compare recoil and muzzle blast with each of the above and compare to the factory loadings....

The local place I got it from told me that it has been selling very strongly, higher than expected... so I guess the popularity is higher than the macho guys like to admit... ( I am sure some of those same macho kinda guys are using it also!)........

It is about time that the factory started realizing this....

Replace the corelokt ( which is a fine bullet, but I'd recommend at least a 150 grainer) with a ballistic tip... and one has a fine load capable of taking deer sized game,, and even elk with the appropriate bullet weight and range limits...

high velocity guys usually are clueless on how far a slower moving bullet, ( especially high sectional density) will penetrate! and how big an animal it will bring down!

I personally hope the future is bright for reduced loads and will become a trend instead of 'shorter... fatter..... faster....etc"

cheers
seafire

Hey Seafire, Sounds like a worthwhile project. Look forward to your results with the other Powders.

Seafire, The 3 powders you mentioned are quite different in appearance from each other. 3031 is a typical extruded powder, as is 4198, but 4198's "sticks" are much thinner (like those ultra thin pencil leads). 4895, also an extruded powder, has short, rather wide sticks (meters easily). It is possible that Rem. developed a non-cannister propellant for its reduced loads as well.

I've seen some of the gun magazines are starting to use the light loads when testing accuracy. (Prety sure the NRA rifleman). It's fun and interesting to see the results. So far I haven't seen any "tack drive" results from the light loads.....usually about 1.5-2" groups....but that's easily "minute of Deer" for most anyonw shooting in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
So far I haven't seen any "tack drive" results from the light loads.....usually about 1.5-2" groups....

It can be done, though: I have a Ruger 338 WM rifle that shoots average with regular 200/210/215 grain loads. Never tested heavier bullets.

With Blue Dot and 200 grain Ballistic Tips it shoots *VERY* accurate, mild recoil and performance on game which is, I thought, a contradiction: Quick kills or at least huge blood trails and very little spoiled meat.

Other bullets I have so far only shot on the range are the 180 grain BT (11 mm groups with Vihta N110, center to center) and Sierra 200 grain SP (8 mm 3 shot group with Blue Dot), both from a RUGER.

Has anyone been using SR4759 for thier reduced loads? I just ordered 24# at $9/lb. This was from a surplus vendor. I tried some commercial 4759, that I had a little of, in a 45-70. The result was impressive. It is quite bulky and really fills the case. In the past it was THE reduced load powder. Seems like the CAS types would like it. Seems like it would be better than Blue dot on the basis that it fills the case better. The burning rate is between 2400 and 4227. I think that buring rate is more appropriate than blue dot. The ability to spot a double charge is better.

FWIW I've chrono'd the MR load @ 2525 fps from a 22 inch M700. My brother-in-law will be using the load to fill his doe tag this year as my son has claimed the 243. Good hunting!

Scota4570: SR 4759 has worked very well for me in my .358 Winchesters and I am working up some loads right now using it for a .308 Winchester. I know that seafire/B17G has also had good results with it in various calibers. Another benefit of SR 4759 is that there is published loading data available using it for several calibers:

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/index.php

Im had my dad load up some 120 grain bts for my daughters 7mm08 .35.6 grains of h4895 leaves the barrel at 2600 fps .it shoots into 1/2 inch all day unreal .My nine year old daughter shoots it as well as her 223 .She is going to try it on a whitetail in Dec .

Woodie

I've had excellent results with SR4759 in straight walled cases but not at all pleased with a couple of loads in BN cases. Dunno why, but I won't mix that powder and BN cases again.

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:
I've had excellent results with SR4759 in straight walled cases but not at all pleased with a couple of loads in BN cases. Dunno why, but I won't mix that powder and BN cases again.

Around 1962 I took this old timer out to a shooting bench set up in the toolies of Ohio.

He was shooting a .257 Roberts and was at least duplicating everything I was doing with my 22 Varminter. That was my intrduction to 4759.

Since than I've used it a lot with great performance from .22 to .375 but never in a straight walled case What happened to turn you off? roger

Some rather refreshing pressure for the most part. I have no idea what the issue was, but with a starting load(published) of 4759 under a 110 grain cast bullet in a 30-30 I experienced sharper recoil than from a regular 170 gr jacketed deer load, AND I had my first experience with primer cup flow. IIRC, the load was 17 or 18 grains. The other involved my .358 Win., again with a cast bullet, and with similar results in recoil and muzzle blast. I pulled the bullets of the remaining loads and found all charge weights as they were meant to be. Haven't a clue what happened but I will not be repeating the attempt.

I've got one a little off thread here, but not by too much!

Was out at the range the other day when a friend came out with his .270 BAR he'd just put a new scope on (more on this in a minute).

He wanted to check the bore-sight done at the sporting goods store from which he purchased the scope. It was pretty good work, and didn't take too much effort to get it on at 100 yards.

So he lets the barrell cool for a bit and commences to fine-tune with the ammo he intends to use for deer season (1st set of rounds with similar but random left-overs).

Now things get interesting. The gun had been shooting well, but now opens up to pie-plate or better. Plus, the point of aim is moving all over the place. I ask him what exactly he wants to use for deer season, and he says, "The 140 grain Federal stuff."

I pull one of the shells out of the red plastic Federal shell-holder and turn it over. It's stamped R-P on the bottom, as are all the rest in the holder.

Then I notice the bullet profile--short, stocky spitzer with a pronounced shoulder coming off the bearing surface.

What was he shooting?

Bingo--115 gr. Remington Reduced Recoil.

He didn't believe me until I showed him. Who knows how that ammo got in the Federal Box & Shell-holder. Maybe some punk at the local "Fleet-Farm" where you can open any box of ammo sitting on the shelf.

Then again, maybe he just got shells mixed up towards the end of deer camp last year, though he swears he's not bought Remington in recent memory.

And the scope? I forget which brand, but it was higher-end. But I do remember the power--a 3x9 with a 50 mm objective! This, for a guy who's shot all his life with open sights, and has never failed to bag a deer every season. Basically, he just turned his quick-handling weapon into a gun with all the mobility of a 155 mm howitzer.

But he'll figure that out the first time he jumps a deer and tries a snap-shot!

friar

quote:

Originally posted by Scota4570:
Has anyone been using SR4759 for thier reduced loads? I just ordered 24# at $9/lb. This was from a surplus vendor. I tried some commercial 4759, that I had a little of, in a 45-70. The result was impressive. It is quite bulky and really fills the case. In the past it was THE reduced load powder. Seems like the CAS types would like it. Seems like it would be better than Blue dot on the basis that it fills the case better. The burning rate is between 2400 and 4227. I think that buring rate is more appropriate than blue dot. The ability to spot a double charge is better.

Scotia:

I have played with both 4759 and Blue Dot in a wide variety of calibers.... Blue Dot is consistently the more accurate of the two....But 4759 is also a very worth while powder, and more readily published data is available.....

SR 4759 and XMR 5744 have the advantage that the factories have used them as a recommended reduced load powder and have marketed them for that....

Alliant has not marketed Blue Dot for Reduced loads, so they have done any work with it... I suspect that is because it would cut into their 2400 series sales which has been used for reduced load work.....

Althought 4759 does fill the case being very bulky, Blue Dot doesn't have a problem with case position sensitivity.... also being a fast powder, it is easily ignited, regardless of its position in the case from my testing ( 223 to 444 Marlin)....

It has easily ignited with just 4 grains of it in a 223, and 6 grains in a 444...I use standard large rifle primers....CCI and Winchester being the most readily available here in Oregon locally.

cheers
seafire

This all sounds like fun but reloaders have been doing this kind of thing for years, backing off a bit to get more accuracy isn't some new factory ammo fame. I still say if you can't stand the recoil then get a rifle that you can load with high velocity without kicking your arm off. This is really a factory gimick.

Blob1,

I think the reduced loadings are valuable for those who don't handload. It may be the only way a first-time rifle buyer will ever shoot his new .300 Whatever Magnum a second time.

Jaywalker

Actually I think reduced loads are awesome and give wonderful flexiblity. If anyone asks me what their first gun should be I tell them a 300 win mag. It can easily be downloaded to 308/06 performance and kick and yet be up to the task for big game open field hunting.
You can never go the other way with the 308 and 3006!

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
Actually I think reduced loads are awesome and give wonderful flexiblity. If anyone asks me what their first gun should be I tell them a 300 win mag. It can easily be downloaded to 308/06 performance and kick and yet be up to the task for big game open field hunting.
You can never go the other way with the 308 and 3006!

roger

A reduced load is a reduced load, plain and simple...They reduced recoil by using a lighter bullet, works every time...You use a 150 gr. bullet and the recoil goes back up...

As a handloader you can make a 30-06 into a .30 Carbine, 30-30, or a 300 magnum by using enhanced factory ammo...

No magic here....

Ray you are so right. A reloader can do what ever he wants to his rifle. And the way I see it is if a person is afraid to pop a cap on a normal load in a certian rifle he best get a smaller one or get to reloading. Just last week I watched a young man get his nose busted but good, blood spurting all over, cursing, blaming Remington, blaming the leupold scope, etc. After about and hour a man handed him his 7mm/08 and after a few minutes of persauion the young man fired it, real careful at first, and then laid 5 in the 1 inch hole. He took off to get him one. If you don't need it don't get it, if you can't stand it get rid of it!

Well Boys,

not everyone can go out and buy a different rifle sometimes....

or may have other reasons to download them....

I have plenty of rifles but I find downloading gives advantages that add flexibility to the rifle......

If it ain't your cup of tea, no one says you have to look at it...

However, some of us find that we like the results ... in my case, I love the flexibility.....

YOU don't always need a 500 yd, 3500fps, 3500 Ft /lbs of ME load to take down a 75 lb deer at 50 yds....

30-30 16.0 BD Rem 110 RN in my 14" contender is great on paper at 2043 fps, I have not found the accuracy load with either the 125 BT or 130 SSP.

30-06 24.5 BD 130 SSP is great out of my sporterized National Ord 03. Comparable (for case volume) BD load in the 7.7X58 with the 130 SSps was also great in the sporterized Type 99!

The bullet I pulled from the Remingtom reduced recoil load matched the profile exactly and the jacket in the Hornady 130 SSP was VERY close, but slightly different. I sectioned both bullets. The Remi 125s I have do not come close to the design in the reduced recoil loads but shoot very well in all of my BD reduced recoil experiments! They perform well on the bottle/osage orange tests also.

338 Mag was showing promise with BD and I ran out of cast bullets. Never could get what I wanted with 180 BTs and BD, but reduced load with M9 (think 3031) is going to be used this year.

Seafire,
No one said for you not to do that, that was not your original question...You wanted to pull 125 gr. bullets and replace them with 150s and still get the recoil reduction or some such as that...I simply explained that it would not work like that, but you had the option to turn your 30-06 into a 30 carbine, 30-30 or even up to a 300 Win. Now I don't see that as something to get your shorts in a wad over, I'd call it helpful advise....

Helpful advice from a experienced person can only be received as helpful advice when the brain decides to put away the childish pride and then listen.

Hey Ray and Bob, I really don't understand your all's posts giving Seafire a hard time.

If you are just feeling froggy, there are plenty of fools on the Board to mess with like allan day and his merry band of stooges.

Seafire knows what he is doing and lots of us look forward to his posts. In fact, if you follow them to the end, I feel sure you will both enjoy his thoughts, ramblings, road trip stories and test results.
---

Did you all hear the one about the two ladies(?) in the Motorhome?

You should have been paying attention when he posted it. A real "Seafire Classic" where he wound himself up just relating it to the Board.

Come to think of it, that would make a nice filler-story for the Blue Dot Reduced Loads Manual.
---

Blue Dot Reduced Loads Manual huuuummm, now there is something we could all get wound up about. Say what you will, I believe "Roger" is the hold up. I have it on good authority he is using all the time he should be devoting to the Blue Dot Reduced Loads Manual messing with some kind of ill-bred "PiMP" ammo!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Seafire,
No one said for you not to do that, that was not your original question...You wanted to pull 125 gr. bullets and replace them with 150s and still get the recoil reduction or some such as that...I simply explained that it would not work like that, but you had the option to turn your 30-06 into a 30 carbine, 30-30 or even up to a 300 Win. Now I don't see that as something to get your shorts in a wad over, I'd call it helpful advise....

Ray,.
With all due Respect......

I was not writing about pulling 125 grain bullets and replacing them with 150 grain bullets.....

Either I did not explain myself well enough, or I humbly submit that you did not read the post, but only scanned it....

What I said on Part 2 of Remington's Reduced loads, was that I differed from their thoughts, and for the handloader, I'd recommend a lighter charge, of IMR 4198... for less recoil yet, but recommended that the scope be adjusted 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, instead of their recommendation of 1.1 inches high at 100 yds...

My recommendation gave a 200 yd zero, and their's gives a 150 yd zero....

I also recommended a 150 grain bullet over their 125 grain bullet, as I felt the 150 would offer better penetration.....

But I did not state I recommended pulling a 125 and re inserting a 150 grain bullet.. although one could certainly do so, as the 36 grains of IMR 4198 that they appear to be using... is still within SAAMI pressure specs with a 150 grain bullet......

ONce again, my personal recommendation was a 150 grain bullet with 30 grains of IMR 4198... or 30 grains of Reloader 7 instead... for an MV of 2250 fps,. vs theirs with a 125 grain bullet with an MV of 2600 fps....

So my shorts were never in a wad.... and I always have respected your opinions... and never shown anything but respect for it.... I have ralleyed to your defense numerous times.....But it doesn't mean we have to see eye to eye on every point, for me to respect your wisdom based on many years of experience......

I do tend to draw on the experiences that I have had also... I don't think anyone would spite me for that.....

cheers
seafire

Reduced loads/reduced recoil?

Just another sales gimmick.

You want reduced recoil/muzzle blast...

shoot a smaller caliber/cartridge!



.22 RF - the ultimate in reduced recoil and noise!

quote:

Originally posted by sonofagun:
Reduced loads/reduced recoil?

Just another sales gimmick.

You want reduced recoil/muzzle blast...

shoot a smaller caliber/cartridge!



.22 RF - the ultimate in reduced recoil and noise!

The poachers Choice...

Going back to the question why Blue Dot is not recommended as a reduced load powder, I believe it is because of it's density. The powders the manufacturers recommend for reduced loads are bulky, and at recommended loads do not permit a double charge.

I've shot a lot of Blue Dot loads, and like them very much. However, the chance of a double charge, as careful as I am, is always present, and not worth the benefit of using Blue Dot. Especially when the SR powders are readily available, and inexpensive.

I'd like to try the new "Trail Boss" powder for reduced loads, as well. FWIW, Dutch.

I think reduced loads are a great.

I loaded up some reduced loads for both of nephews in my 270. 140gr Hornady BTSP @ about 2400fps. Pleasant to shoot. Great way to learn to shoot "big guns" after only shooting 22 rimfires. Effective on deer and the load will shoot MOA.

They didn't lose a deer with them and have now graduated to full power loads.

Well, my firearm whitetail seasons are over and I can make the following report regarding the effectiveness of the Remington Managed Recoil 30'06 load. My brother-in-law used my M700 ADL topped with a 4x Leupold M8 loaded with the 125 gr MR load to fill his tag, taking a yearling doe with a 10 yard shot. The bullet struck the right shoulder blade, popped ribs coming and going, took out both lungs, and was stopped by the skin on the left side. The doe hobbled on three legs for about 20 yards before piling up. The recovered bullet was expanded to about .75 inch. I haven't had a chance to weigh it yet as we are still in deer camp. I knew my 45/70 would kill whitetails just fine and I wanted to collect more data on the MR load so I took my M700 back when my brother-in-law rolled for home. Monday I shot a mature doe at 60 yards. The 125 grain Corelokt hit her on the shoulder, took out ribs coming and going, pulped the lungs and the heart, and exited behind the far shoulder. She ran about 20 yards leaving a prodigious blood trail. I filled my second and final tag on another mature doe this evening. I hit her on the left shoulder from about 30 yards. The bullet took out ribs coming and going, wrecked both lungs, severed the plumbing at the top of the heart, and shredded the liver before exiting. It took us an hour to find her. There was no blood trail, not a drop, until her last couple steps before expiring in a thick patch about 70 yards from where she was hit. Three clean kills are scarcely a statistically valid sample but I offer the data for what they are worth. Good hunting!

Hey mb, Nice "detailed" report. Thanks and congratulations on the kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:

I've shot a lot of Blue Dot loads, and like them very much. However, the chance of a double charge, as careful as I am, is always present, and not worth the benefit of using Blue Dot. .

When I originally saw the first of Seafire's Blue Dot postings I was of the same mind as you are now. I figured I'd give it a fair shot and bought 5 lbs. As I used it I got more and more confident and the possibility of danger was slipping gradually way back into my mind.When Seafire had his double charge problem with the Boy Scout the realization that an accident with me doing the same might only be a matter of time. I've enjoyed using the Blue Dot but once it is gone it is gone for good. Had the original 60% rule held true it could have been a different story. roger

quote:

Well, my firearm whitetail seasons are over and I can make the following report regarding the effectiveness of the Remington Managed Recoil 30'06 load. My brother-in-law used my M700 ADL topped with a 4x Leupold M8 loaded with the 125 gr MR load to fill his tag, taking a yearling doe with a 10 yard shot. The bullet struck the right shoulder blade, popped ribs coming and going, took out both lungs, and was stopped by the skin on the left side. The doe hobbled on three legs for about 20 yards before piling up. The recovered bullet was expanded to about .75 inch. I haven't had a chance to weigh it yet as we are still in deer camp. I knew my 45/70 would kill whitetails just fine and I wanted to collect more data on the MR load so I took my M700 back when my brother-in-law rolled for home. Monday I shot a mature doe at 60 yards. The 125 grain Corelokt hit her on the shoulder, took out ribs coming and going, pulped the lungs and the heart, and exited behind the far shoulder. She ran about 20 yards leaving a prodigious blood trail. I filled my second and final tag on another mature doe this evening. I hit her on the left shoulder from about 30 yards. The bullet took out ribs coming and going, wrecked both lungs, severed the plumbing at the top of the heart, and shredded the liver before exiting. It took us an hour to find her. There was no blood trail, not a drop, until her last couple steps before expiring in a thick patch about 70 yards from where she was hit. Three clean kills are scarcely a statistically valid sample but I offer the data for what they are worth. Good hunting!

More Details: As I mentioned earlier the new Corelokt 125 grain bullet used in Remington’s 30’06 Managed Recoil load appears to be of bonded construction but skinning the deer shot with the load confirms the bullet is pretty soft. The MR load clocks 2525 fps from the 22 inch barrel of my rifle. That makes it 200 fps faster than the 7.62x39 and about 200 slower than a 257 Roberts (though a 125 .308 has a poorer SD than a 117-120 .257). I'm guessing Remington chose the pointed 125 grain pill so they could claim a 50% recoil reduction yet maintain a reasonable trajectory for marketing purposes. It may need to be an easy opener to perform across the 200 yard effective range claimed by the factory but the damage at close range is more than I am used to when using pistols, muzzleloaders, and other wide slow projectiles. I stand corrected regarding the size of my brother-in-law’s doe, it was a mature full-size specimen. We did not weigh her but it took two us to put the field dressed carcass in the truck. He fed his deer’s right shoulder to the cats. The shoulders of my two does show significant expansion in the meat of the shoulder before blowing 1-1/2 to 2 inch wide holes in the ribs. The holes in the ribs on the far side were larger. I tossed more meat to the cats than I have in a long time. I had hoped to verify the bullet would expand less violently at longer ranges but the deer insisted on showing up at contact distance. As other have mentioned the failure to penetrate completely on a quartering shot through an average size northern whitetail doe at 10 yards was striking; not a failure of course, but something of a surprise to those of us who have never recovered a bullet from a whitetail. My take on the Managed Recoil load is that it is probably best as a load for a young shooter to use in a 30’06 he or she aspires to grow into. Hunters who choose it because they are tired of being beaten up by their hard-butted '06s will have to choose their shots more carefully than is necessary when using full power ammo. It is perhaps significant that Federal chose a 170 grain flatnose @ 2000 fps for their Low Recoil line, essentially recreating 30/30 ballistics in the 308 Winchester and the 30'06 but they make no claim to match the trajectory of conventional ammunition. Me, should I need to create a “30/30’06†load, I’ll use 150 grain 30/30 bullets @ 2300-2400. Good hunting!

You can lead a horse to water...

I guess some folks forgot how to have fun, as shooting reduced loads is just plain fun. I'm sure many won't believe that a big game rifle can fire reduced blue do loads that are as accurate as full patch loads. Oh well, more fun for those of us that enjoy them.

Eidted my post regarding the now-absence of a couple of folks from this thread. I was annoyed by one of them on another site, but it had no place here. Sorry.

Jaywalker

MB:

A load of 30 grains of IMR 4198 and a 150 grain ballistic tip will give you about 2300 fps....

a 165 about 2200 fps...

zero them 3.5 inches high at 100 and they will be dead on at 200 yds....

MY nephew took a 650 lb cow elk with one at 175 yds in Montana 4 or 5 yrs ago... she went 50 yds or so and was down for the count... she was shot when she was with about 12 more at a full gallop....

Bullet penetrated both lungs and was bulged on the far side under the hide... not only destroyed the lungs but also the upper half of the liver and cut the esophagus in half....

30/30 recoil also....

Seafire:

On a diffrent note:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/308108663

what do you think? Possible?

As an aside, for slightly reduced loads, the PMC bronze line runs a couple hundred feet per second less than industry. It worked for my kids just fine when I don't have the time to load down.

quote:

30 grains of IMR 4198 and a 150 grain ballistic tip will give you about 2300 fps....

zero them 3.5 inches high at 100 and they will be dead on at 200 yds....

Thanks, I've loaded some 30/30'06 loads with IMR4198 in that range (but with Hornady, Speer, and Remington flatnose 150s) and they worked pretty well on paper. With regard to the Ballistic Tip at 30 WCF speeds what sort of expansion and weight retention have you experienced? The 125 grain Corelokt we recovered weighed 120 grains and was expanded to 0.755 inch. Nice retention for such a suddend stop I suppose but if it had expanded a little less it might have exited. Where we use these little loads to harvest north country does a 100 yard is all but impossible so I favor a short range zero and a point and shoot trajectory. Of the course the simplest answer is to convince my brother-in-law buy his own 260 so he can quit worrying about how much my 30'06 kicks... Good hunting!