The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Lee Dies Suck.................................Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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What amuses me with Lee bashers is that they virtually always make broad slurs without a shred of supporting evidence! And they attack those who question their statements as "Lee defenders", just for the asking. Those of us DO defend Lee, by facts and experience, and how ever mildly, are then trashed as "Lee only" and not smart enough to understand the difference! What grandly intellectual arguments they make! Evidence: "Well excuse us for a opinion and or almost blowing our selves up with there POS plastic equipment." Aside from the issue of being offended by an alternate opinion, based on stated fact, does anyone have any idea of how and in what way unless it refers to "there (sic) Lee POS plastic equipment is supposed to risk almost blowing our selves up"? Does that mean a loader has to have a cast iron powder scale - or a really easy to read digital - in order to make a simple scale work right? Well, I really believe MOST of us are more competent than that! The Lee scale IS light but it's NEVER accused of being either insensitive or inaccurate IF handled correctly by a competent user. Soooo....? On the other hand, to be kind, does the writer suggest that there sny brand of tools that cannot be misused, especially a scale? If so, is the tool maker responsible for the misuse? Or only Lee?  I've noted that many who have the least experience with different brands of tools are the ones who most adamently believe their favorite brand is the "best". That's just nonsense. they ALL work well, but only IF the user understands how. I like some things, some I don't like. MY tastes aside, I know it's personal and has NO application on the quality or serviceability of the tools themselves. For instance, while I like the power of a Bonanza Co-Ax press, I DO NOT like the sort of clumsy way that center-line handle feels in use. But it's an excellant press and I would NEVER suggest that my not liking it means I can honestly shout over the net that it "SUCKS"! | |||
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Anyone who uses a Bonanza press will realize they don't Suck. Anyone who uses Lee equipment enough will realize that SOME of it does Suck. But the Bonanza press is expensive and isn't for everyone but it has it's place on many experienced reloaders workbenches. Lee equipment is far less expensive an it too has a place on most reloading benches, you just have to know it's limitations because for some applications it sucks.................................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Well, heck, for some applications even the much-touted RCBS sucks! The same can be said for virtually any manufacturer. In the final analysis, it's a poor workman who blames.....you know the rest. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I've heard the comment, mostly from people who don't use tools to make a living with. It's a stupid craftsman who can't figure out that better tools make for quicker higher quality work. I make my living using my hands and specialized tools. Good quality tools increase your speed, last far longer and make quality work far easier. Go ask you local car mechanic if he can get by in his profession with a $8 set of chinese socket wrenches. Lee tools usually fill about the same Niche as $8 Chinese socket wrenches. They will get you by for a while but the are much better quality choices out there for more serious use. I probably have more Lee tools and dies than most reloaders, they have a place for me in lower volumn applications or where I'm just trying out a rifle or caliber, I usually buy a better set of dies later on if I end up loading the caliber much. Most of the Lee tools I liked simply wore out like the hand-primer and the case trimming tool. I would rather have paid %10 more and had those tools made out of better materials that didn't wear out as quickly. It's usually cheaper in the end to buy better quality stuff once rather than wearing out the cheap stuff and then having to replace it (note: I haven't worn out Lee dies but have other Lee tools). It's not a poor workman who blames his tools it's a poor workman who allows poor tools to keep him from better work........................................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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It's also a poor workman who keeps on whining about his poor tools instead of making or buying better ones. You want a better tool? Either buy it somewhere else or make it better yourself or shut up about it, but don't blame the tool for shortcomings that are the tool user's responsibility. I've had far more trouble over the last 45 years with RCBS than any other brand but that doesn't mean their tools suck, it just means that nowadays I buy other brands in most cases or else make 'em myself. Any reasonably competent workman can make good reloading tools, it ain't rocket science. You don't like Lee tools? The solution is quite simple, just don't buy any more of 'em! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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So isn't the 7.62x54R chinese metric caliber somewhat to blame, with critical dimensions all over the place? How are the RCBS dies you ordered working out for you? | |||
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Onefunzr2, the problem with the 7.62x54R is that a lot of people reload them with the more commonly available .308 bullets instead of the correct .311 bullets. The Finns did the right thing and call the .308 bullet version the 7.62x53R and keep it as a separate caliber. RCBS and other better die makers usually include both size expander balls so that you can load either size bullets. The problem with this set of dies was not only did it include only the incorrect size expander but the seater die neck was too tight when loading the proper size bullets and pushed the necks of loaded cases down into the cases when properly adjusted according to the instructions! The RCBS dies I bought work perfectly, loading proper size bullets with low runout. Mr. Steele, In case you haven't noticed this is a forum where we discuss the relative strenghts and merits of different reloading equipment. I hope that just maybe I might save some poster here $25-$30 by not buying a set of improperly manufactured Lee 7.62.54R dies. Customer feedback is one of the ways that smart companies improve thier products. If they don't know what's wrong with them and why we don't like them how are they going to improve them. I have quite a bit of influence and input on improving some of the tools manufactured for my trade and have mentioned several suggestions here and other places where maybe different reloading manufacturers can improve thier own products. I certainly haven't limited criticism to Lee products either. The most expensive reloading tool mistake I ever made was a RCBS progressive press - it never worked. While I use RCBS products for regular reloading I wouldn't use anything but a Dillon progressive now due to my bad experience with the RCBS. There's another current thread I've posted on about a defective lot of Hornady 458 Lott dies. All of this is about us sharing information back and forth about what works and doesn't. I've never said that nobody should use Lee dies and have mentioned that I have quite a few, but it is necessary to put them into perspective in relation to other brands and maybe let others know if there are particular sets to avoid. Sometimes posters here might need a little thicker skins when someone suggests improvements for their favored tools.........................................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Who uses expander balls? Not a good idea for accurate reloading. | |||
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Why is it bad to use expander balls? Over working the brass? Or is there something else I m missing? Disabled Vet(non-combat) - US Army NRA LIFE MEMBER Hunter, trapper, machinest, gamer, angler, and all around do it your selfer. Build my own CNC router from scratch. I installed the hight wrong. My hight moves but the rails blocks 3/4 of the hight..... | |||
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I get 3 shots into 1/2" if i'm shooting fast out of my homeloads and tikka 30.06 so I'd say lee dies work fine. As long as your definition of fine is the same as mine, that is  There may be gains to be had for benchrest shooters and what have you, but for people whose purposes are the same as mine I doubt there is much functional difference between the brands. A | |||
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http://www.sinclairintl.com/pr...Concentricity-Gauges  The Sinclair Concentricity gauge has a little note in the box, like a Chinese fortune cookie fortune. It says, ~ ' You will probably find the problem is the expander ball." Save yourself $100 and just stop using the expander ball. If you remove the expander ball stem, you will have to decap the spent primer some other way. 1) When the expander ball is installed for sizing, the expander ball goes in, the neck gets sized, and the expander ball changes the neck on the pull stroke on the way out. That pulling tends to get off center and make the neck crooked ~ 0.004". Nothing you can see, but you can see the difference in group size. 2) If you remove the expander ball stem and size the brass, then re install the expander ball stem and decap, the expander ball will bend out of straight the neck only 10% as much on that push stroke. 3) But the jacketed bullet will seat with no expander, so it is even better still to use a de capping die. 4) The concentricity can be compromised with bushing dies and factory chambers. Sizing dies with the neck honed out are better for concentricity with factory [big] chamber necks. 5) Better still is the Lee Collet die. It will decap without an expander ball. It will clamp a collet around a the neck with a mandrel in the neck, so thickness run out does not become a concentricity error. [The error is then on the outside of the neck, not the inside that touches the bullet.] What does it all mean? Who says Lee dies suck? They don't if you know what you're doing. | |||
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Much good info, thanks tnekkcc. I don't currently FL resize using the lee kit, I decap, clean and then use the neck die. Would a group size comparison between neck sized and full length resized otherwise identical ammunition give anything approaching an valid indication as to the difference between the run-out issue in my rifle or are there too many other variables in this case? Regards, A | |||
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Using dies without the expander ball is NOT the fix all for all the runout problems you think it is. Yes, if you run a case through a sizing die without the expander and then check the case on your runout guage it usually shows near to zero runout. Stick a bullet in the case and run the guage on the same spot and all of a sudden it will have far more runout. The reason is that the necks on brass unless they are reamed or turned rarely have consistant thickness from side to side. .002 to .004 differences are common in many brands of brass I've seen as much as .006 go .008 in brand name brass. If you are lucky enough to have a die that will size your cases properly and leave the necks proper diameter for good neck tension and have consistant brass, Yes expanderless sizing will make very concentric ammo. Problem is unless you have your dies honed to a specific size and you have consistant case neck thickness you CAN run into problems. It is something to try but just be aware that there are things that can come up. Seating a bullet into too tight a neck can throw things out of concentricty also.....................................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Yes, case neck dimensions are often to blame for problems experienced by many reloaders. The varying dimensions' bad effects are aggravated by use of the expander ball, as already noted. There are a number of precautions and corrections for this problem, but there's also another case neck problem that hasn't been mentioned on this thread so far. The typical cartridge case will have varying hardness, especially in the neck area because of the working of the brass. Even if the neck thickness is made perfectly even throughout, the working action of resizing, loading and firing will further work-harden the brass. Well, guess what, the soft parts will stretch more than the hard parts and thereby make the case out-of-round. Again. IMO reaming case necks should always be accompanied by a good annealing, in fact I anneal a lot more frequently than I ream necks, about every 5 loadings. BTW if your Russian case necks varied as much as 0.004"-0.006" then that could have been some of your problem with the Lee dies. Did you ever contact Lee about the problem? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Did you take them up on their money back warranty? | |||
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I load 5 calibers with Lee dies, and have not had any problems. Until I do, I won't worry about changing brands. | |||
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If you want prize winning bench rest accuracy, don't buy any of the major brands... If you want good ammo, Lee is just as good any others I've used... as to someone mentioning that the point where their trimming tool showed wear... and as a result the trim length reduced... and that they were unhappy as a result... Breaking news... wear happens... it's why most mechanical devices have a maintenance schedule. It's not unusual to throw away a cheap component. Get a life and get over it. Even here in Oz the holders aren't expensive. I can't believe some of the crap on this thread. ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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Besides being rather rude, you obviously are not a particular experienced reloader with much experience with different brands of reloading tools. Specifically to point a good deal of the reloading equipment that we buy will last a couple lifetimes worth of reloading for most reloaders. I feel that it's worth noting some of the equipment that's not going to last a lifetime or stand up to hard use. A tool that doesn't last as long but is much cheaper has a place, I use them in some situations, It's handy to have a cheap set of wrenches in the trunk for emergencies but you wouldn't want to work with them all day. I'd bet I have twice as many Lee dies as the average loader, they just have problems that I find irritating. As far as the 7.62x54R Lee dies went the price difference between them and the RCBS dies was less than $3 or in other words the Lee dies cost me more if you include the brass they ruined with a too tight seater neck. I haven't bothered with getting the other expander button since I bought the set of RCBS dies that had the proper size. If I ever run into a Finnish Nagant with a .308 barrel the Lee's might get some use. Oh and in case you didn't notice Rugeruser, this is a RELOADING FORUM this is were we discuss issues with reloading tools etc., If you don't like what we're discussing why were you even bothering to post here?..........................................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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So, did you ever contact Lee? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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 When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. | |||
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Bwaahahahahhahahhh.... Rude? Tell me where I was rude... being an old curmudgeon, specifics would help.. Not experienced? I guess 45 years using most of the commercial and custom stuff to reload God only knows how many rounds of rifle ammo for hunting, culling, benchrest, Military Service, Hi Power etc, doesn't count???... LOLOLOLOL If wear on the bearing point of a case trimmer upsets you, you need help, and fast. If the dies you bought weren't what you thought they should be, get in touch with the manufacturer.. Crikey, I even emailed RCBS to ask if they sold their locking rings seperatley, and specifically TOLD them I wanted them to replace the Lee lock rings... five days later a rather large number of rings arrived in the post... no charge, not even for postage to Australia. (btw, Australia is on the left hand side of the Pacific Ocean, not in Europe)... Withe regard to your comment about cheap wrenches in the trunk for emergencies, we'll have to differ.. if it's an emergency, I want the very best tools I can have.. and where I go, that can be a life or death situation - literally - unless you can comfortably survive in 45degree (Celsius) heat until someone finds you... rely on substandard equipment in that situation and you will die. Simple as that - so your argument is flawed from the outset. I'm an Aussie, and us folk tend to call bullshit when we see it. Sorry if I got your frilly knickers in a knot, but perhaps you could take your own advice... if you don't like my post, don't respond. Perhaps I should add that under the legislation currently in place, culling roos requires head shots - next time you go to a frilly girl zoo, check out the size of a roo's head and figure the brain size... it's about the size of a golf ball. If you can do that a couple of hundred times a week, you'll get my respect. Nah... I don't know anything about reloading. LOLOLOLOL ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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Well I guess I will have to give you credit for realizing that Lee Lock rings Suck enough to want to replace them.  It's nice when the people who are trying to argue against you prove your point!...............................................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Well I guess I will have to give you credit for realizing that Lee Lock rings Suck enough to want to replace them. It's nice when the people who are trying to argue against you prove your point!...............................................DJ[/QUOTE] Hahahaha...mate, you've got some serious issues... I didnt say that the Lee rings 'suck' I just prefer a different locking ring... some of the rings also replaced the lock rings on my Hornady dies... so my preference isn't limited to being 'anti Lee'.. don't misrepresent things that I didn't say... As for the rings not being my preferred system, how you construe that as being 'proof' that Lee dies are no good is pure bullshit. btw, thanks for your reply, however I'm still waiting or the specifics as to my 'rudeness' you referred to earlier... or was that just more of your shit? ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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Rugeruser, I agree with you, he's obviously a minority of one and has some serious issues. BTW I really liked your description of his 'frilly knickers', IMO it was very appropriate... DJ, I can't decide whether Ignorance or Arrogance is your worst problem, but by now it should be obvious (even to you!) that the folks here don't share your opinions. You have a good day now, y'hear? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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People tend to read and hear only what they want too. Admittedly I've "pulled the chain" a bit in this discussion to keep things rolling but who thought we'd get 3 pages out of a Lee die thread. The point is you both seem to have NOT read any of the GOOD things that I've said about LEE equipment. If you will go back you'll see that I've mentioned several times in this and many past threads that I feel that Lee equipment is often very cleverly designed. I just wish they would manufacture them to a higher standard. The problem with the case trimmer peening could be solved by spending 10cents more on higher grade steel and properly hardeing it. That's just one example of how a very small cost increase could greatly increase the utility of a product. If LEE didn't have promise they wouldn't be worth discussing would they. But I'm sure you who wish too will only read the criticism (and a certain amount of sarcasm for fun) without also trying to understand that criticism is also meant to improve things. I still wish Lee would make a premium line of say collet dies etc. costing a bit more but made better - maybe license the production to Redding or the like. I'd pay the extra for the better stuff. Back to the point of the emergency tools. There are emergencies and then there are emergencies. Here in the US an extra set of tools will allow you to reattatch a loose hose etc. instead of waiting a couple hours for a AAA driver to come by and do it for you. I can certainly see an enormous difference between this and an expedition into the Wastelands where you life might well depend on stuff - there you need the quality. But again it shows the point that there is a place for cheaper less used stuff like Lee and Chinese wrenches just as there is a time where you need higher quality tools such as Redding/Forster and better wrenches. Lee stuff has a place in the reloading market but it's inargueably at the lower end of it. And in the end I'd prefer to discuss things about reloading and firearms topics on this forum. I won't try and judge a lifestyle decision on your part, but since I'm completely straight like most of the posters here, you would probably better exercise your homo fantasies about mens undergarments somewhere else  ...................................DJ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Mate, with due respect, is it really such a problem that parts wear? If you want things to remain pristine, best you don't use them so they keep their shiny newness. As to there being emergencies and 'emergencies'... and waiting for a AAA person... good luck to you if you can even get cellphone coverage to call them (you can't) and even if you could possibly guide the AAA person to where you are (highly doubtfull unless the AAA person is fully conversant with the property..which they ain't). Sub standard tools of any description don't have any place with me... We tell visitors that they need to make sure they have at least ten litres of water per person on board before they leave the nearest town which is 120km from our gate... and to call us when they leave so we know when to expect them. If they're overdue, we go looking for them... as would any other grazier/farmer anywhere. When you're in that kind of environment, 'cheap' tools of any description or intended use simply don't rate... Lee certainly don't fit the category of 'cheap'... they do the job they were designed to do, and they do it very well. And given that we're discussing reloading, what comparisons have you personally made with other brands such that you have come to the conclusion that 'Lee dies suck'...? Oh,and btw, still waiting for your clarification about my 'rudeness'... or perhaps my calling bullshit is a bit confronting? As to the homo fantasies... hehehe... I'm not the one wearing frilly knickers and getting them in a knot over sweet fuck all... that's your department, and in that regard, I'll defer to your expertise. ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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RugerUser, I guess that I should rephrase this. I think a better way of saying it would have been "If you think that Lee tools are just as good Redding, Forster and some others you obviously haven't used enough Redding, Forster and other higher quality reloading tools". As far as Rude goes, eh who cares, I'm pretty rude sometimes too so maybe were even. You're going to have to own up to the "Knickers" fantasy's though, you started them and they aren't anywhere I want to be. You are also still missing the point about cheap tools. You said "Sub standard tools of any description don't have any place with me...", but yet you bought Lee dies and then had to replace the "substandard" rings on them didn't you? The Lee trim system is definately substandard in it's materials, I've worn out 2 of them! I started out reloading 35 years ago by buying an RCBS Rockchucker and a Master Reloading Kit. Every single piece of equipment in that kit is still fully usable after countless thousands of rounds of use. It's going to be inherited by my son's as their first reloading set. The constrast between this and some of the Lee equipment that wore out in a few months is quite telling. But again I'll say that Lee equipment does have a place in situations where someone can only spend a certain amount of money and won't be using it heavily. For heavy use it's always best to buy stuff that won't wear out the first time instead on continually replacing cheaper equipment. You say " Sub standard tools of any description don't have any place with me... " and yet you send off to another continent to have another company replace substandard parts of tools you say have no place with you. Lee tools can do a job, they have thier place, but they simply aren't as good of tools as some others are. I enjoy a good arguement, but it's hard to argue with someone who's logic is inconsistant and contradicts himself from post to post ...................................DJ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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DJ, for crying out loud, go back to my first post on this thread. I could pick so may holes in your debate it's not funny... but life is too short, and I'm too much of a gentleman to pursue that avenue and embarrass someone, so I won't. If you're comfortable with your stance, that's fine by me. ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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OK
Was that better? Also please read my signature line. I am attempting to Banter back in forth in at least moderately friendly way please don't take it all too seriously. ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Hey DJ, I genuinely reckon you and I could have a lot of fun debating this over a campfire (I'm serious)... it would be fun exploring what is 'major' in the USA compared to what's readily available here... and frankly, what you guys have on a day to basis has many of us very envious. Obtaining some of the gear you guys have access to (let alone the firearms) is 'cream your jeans' stuff.... I'm not good with the 'quote' thingo, so bear with me... the manufacturers you mention aren't exactly well represented over here... they are hard to get if you can find a supplier... and getting anything firearms related out of the States, and then getting them through our people is an exercise in frustration... When I mentioned 'good ammo' I was referring to hunting ammo... I get sub MOA with Lee stuff, but I also compete at a good level in HiPower and F class... up to 800meteres here... Lee gear hasn't been an impediment. Lee locking rings? Don't like 'em... prefer a more solid way of locking the die - we've already agreed on that one... Re the trimmer, mine showed wear after about 3000 case trimmings..even then it was marginal... cost me a few bucks to replace the thing... but I still reckon a Lee system is faster and easier than setting up a 'hand lathe' system... the latter is better, no doubt about that, but when you're loading for 8 cals for a weekend, life is too short to stuff around... DJ, I hope I've kinda addressed the issues (remember I'm not good with the quotes LOLOLOLOL)... Hopefully there are no hard feelings (yep, I'm aware of your tag line [which pretty much mirrors my thoughts])... If ever you get the opportunity to get over here, I'd be delighted to make your acquaintance and go and shoot some pigs together. ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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RugerUser, It is easy for us to forget how spoiled we get as far as equipment etc. goes. I can order from a dozen different internet companies all with excellent service and get most any reloading tool you could want within a couple days. Maybe Midway can start an Austrailian division. Shooting "F" class is definately worthy of respect. Last season I took one of my more accurate rifles to try at one of the matches. It's a Military styled rifle so I shot it off the Bipod. The score I shot in 3 20rd strings at 600yds even on the smaller "F" Class target would have been a Master Class score using High-Power percentages, I thought I did pretty good and came in second...............TO LAST! Yea I thought I was doing OK and was next to last place and if IIRC his gun broke and didn't finish! I think the guy who won only dropped 2 or 3 points for the 600pt match! He had one 5 shot string that could have been covered with 1 paster, and this is on a day with 10mph+ winds and 1-2MOA Mirage shifts! Those guys can SHOOT! Out of curiosity, how many guns does an average Austrailian hunter and shooter own, and how many does he reload for? Can you only own a certain number of firearms? Oh and though I realize that we have a big advantage when it comes to owning guns etc., You guys have some big advantages when it comes to cull hunts and stuff. We can generally shoot as many pigs and prarie dogs as we want but other big game animals we are more limited on. Don't Austrailians have lots of opportunities for Roe, Donkey and Cammel cull hunts? I'm glad you've at least enjoyed this thread a little even though I've been a PITA. At least we've stirred up the longest reloading thread in a while. I'd have to agree that though I criticize Lee stuff it's a lot better than Nothing! And if it was all I could get ahold of I'd sure make it work just like you do. Oh yea, at least you Aussies have some good powders available. I forget which one of your ADI powders "VARGET" is but I've been shooting 10-20lb or more a year of it, great stuff and my favorite all around powder.......................................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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DJ, all good. rather than clutter the thread, I've pm'd you with my pontifications, thoughts and so on... Cheers, RU ******************************** A gun is a tool. A moron is a moron. A moron with a hammer who busts something is still just a moron, it's not a hammer problem. Daniel77 | |||
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