I decided to do some loading for 7.62x54R. The place I was ordering from was out of a couple other brands of dies but had the Lee die sets available so since it wasn't a round I figured loading a lot of I decided to go ahead and try the Lee's.

They Sucked.

First of all they didn't even come with the proper diameter expander! They wanted you to order it for an additional charge. I wouldn't have minded them costing $3.00 more but they darn well should have the right diameter expander. The CORRECT diameter for 7.62x54R is either .311 or .312. The dies came with a .308 expander. I realize the some people use .308 bullets in thier rifles but it's not the correct diameter for the caliber and IT should have been the extra not the Correct diameter rod. My Hornady 7.62x39 dies came with BOTH size expanders like the Lee's SHOULD have. I had to run an expander from a set of 303 british dies to get the bullets to seat.

Also they made the neck of the seater die too tight. I was loading with Virgin Privi-Parison brass and on several rounds where the brass was .001 to .002 thicker than other rounds the SEATER die stuck and Collapsed the neck into the shoulder ruining several rounds of Virgin brass.

I could have handled the cheaper construction of the Lee dies if they would have been dimensioned properly. But not having the proper diameter expander and having the neck of the seater die so tight it ruined Virgin brass is inexcuseable.

I have a set of RCBS 7.62x54R dies on the way..........................................DJ

I'd email your post to Lee. Would be interested in their responce.

I have both the 7.6x54R and 7.62x39 Lee dies and both came with the extra expander. Something else about the 7.62x54R dies. The sizer dies sized the necks down to be able to use .308 bullets. The problem with this is if you don't plan on using .308 bullets this sizer overworks the necks and in short order you get split necks rendering the brass useless. I advise to pull the expander and polish the neck portion to your desired neck diameter if you don't plan on using .308 bullets.

Joe

I won't buy any more Lee Precision products. I have used them in the past and decided life is too short to use inferior products.

I switched from Lee to RCBS when the decapping rod pulled out of the die and got stuck in the case of my 30-06 reloads. You can't pull a thread out like you can a smooth rod...

I tried several Lee dies and had very good luck with them....I even recommended them here.....I'm now back to RCBS.....the good guys!

RCBS changed their dies. I've even heard some of their products are being manufactured in China. I recently bought a new set of RCBS dies. Nice looking, but pieces of shit. The old RCBS dies, the shiny metal ones, you couldn't cut, file, or turn the on a lathe very easy. The new ones you can. They aren't made the same. I've never cracked a sizing die. Just recently cracked two. My choice of dies use to be Redding, but their prices are out of sight. Forester makes some pretty good dies. I think Hornady dies went to hell too.

I came to the same conclusion when i first began reloading, I then promptly switched to Redding- havent looked back since. Although, Lee makes some nice and cheap dedicated crimping dies.

quote:

My choice of dies use to be Redding, but their prices are out of sight. Forester makes some pretty good dies.

I find that Redding's standard dies are priced competitively with RCBS, Lyman and Hornady, but you get Forster quality.

Lee products will always be compromised in some way.

Mot of my sets are RCBS, however as of late Ihave been buying Lee. I have yet to have any problems with them. I do not use the neck size die in the set as I have not been able to figure out how to get it to work correctly. I like the fact they give me a shellholder as RCBS hits you up for $5.00 for one. The Lee set is generally also about $10.00 less in cost. For 'precision' work I'll stick to RCBS, but fr hunting or plinking Lee is ok with me.

buckeye -

the first thing lee's instructions on the neck die sizer say is "forget everything yuo know about using dies."

since i ahd never used dies before, this was easy for me.

I've had no problems with them and they seem fine to me - they size the neck right with any brass i have used so far.

i don't mean to sound condescending, but have you read the instructions?

I have 40 to 50 some die sets redding, pacifc,lyman, RCBS ect I buy Lee dies when ever I can. I would guess half of my die sets are Lee I don't have any trouble with them.

I have pretty wide variety of die sets.
The internal dimesions of the Lee FL sizers are practically identical to most but not all RCBS dies. The 7/8-14 threads and the exterior finish of Lee dies are good. The Lee decapper is strong.
The Lee lock rings, the friction decapping stem bushing and most of the Lee seater die are some of my least favorite features. Some of Lee's features are different just to be different.

The only dies that I have ever had problems with are the Pacific (now Hornady) dies.

Here's something I can't understand: I had an RCBS small-base die through which I ran thousands of .223 Remington cases until I got stupid and tried to lube with something other than I usually use (can't remember what it was, now). A case stuck and I could not get it out no way, no how. I went and bought another die, but this new one seems to put the decapping pin off-center from the flash hole. I have bent two decapping screws since putting this new die into service. Any thoughts as to why? As a result, I don't reload much at all anymore. I can't see bending the portion where the expander screws onto the rod after just a few rounds-- especially when the decapping rods cost about nine bucks...

quote:

Originally posted by homebrewer:
Here's something I can't understand: I had an RCBS small-base die through which I ran thousands of .223 Remington cases until I got stupid and tried to lube with something other than I usually use (can't remember what it was, now). A case stuck and I could not get it out no way, no how. I went and bought another die, but this new one seems to put the decapping pin off-center from the flash hole. I have bent two decapping screws since putting this new die into service. Any thoughts as to why? As a result, I don't reload much at all anymore. I can't see bending the portion where the expander screws onto the rod after just a few rounds-- especially when the decapping rods cost about nine bucks...

Call RCBS, they will more then likely send you a replacement out.

I could tell you two ways to get that stuck case out, but sounds like you don't want too.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by homebrewer:
Here's something I can't understand: I had an RCBS small-base die through which I ran thousands of .223 Remington cases until I got stupid and tried to lube with something other than I usually use (can't remember what it was, now). A case stuck and I could not get it out no way, no how. I went and bought another die, but this new one seems to put the decapping pin off-center from the flash hole. I have bent two decapping screws since putting this new die into service. Any thoughts as to why? As a result, I don't reload much at all anymore. I can't see bending the portion where the expander screws onto the rod after just a few rounds-- especially when the decapping rods cost about nine bucks...

Do you have it adjusted down to far where the rod bent hitting the bottom of the case?...........................DJ

I've been reloading since the early '60s, have used almost all brands of dies and still own & shoot a few dozen different ones. Have made a number of wildcats, adapted brass for unavailable cartridges, tight-neck chambers, etc.

I've had more trouble with RCBS than ANY other brand, period, end of discussion.

Redding IMO makes possibly the best dies but the worst die boxes.

Lee dies do indeed have a few issues but in general I find them to be the best buy, by far. The quality is adequate and the design is innovative and far more precise and accurate than any other 7/8x14 die set I've seen.

Lee is always my first choice these days, RCBS is always my last choice. JMOFWIW.
Regards, Joe

quote:

I went and bought another die, but this new one seems to put the decapping pin off-center from the flash hole. I have bent two decapping screws since putting this new die into service. Any thoughts as to why?

I have dozens of die sets in all current brands and some long gone brands (except Dillon) and have no "issues" with any of them. Threaded decapping rods defeat two protections that Lee's system provides but threads are simplier, I suppose.

Lee's very excellant method of holding a decapping rod stem is in a smooth walled tapered collet that allows the rod to move under high pressure. That accomplishes two important things for the user.

One, it holds the decapper rod centered better than any other method. Being centered reduces broken and bent decap pins. But it must be held tightly enough not to slide in normal use. That takes a couple of proper sized wrenches, not pliers. ??

Two, Lee's unthreaded decap rod is specifically designed to SLIP and not bend if we set it too far down OR if there is a pebble, etc, inside the case or if it's Berdan primed.

Those shooting/loading an unconventional foreign cartridge that frequently has two bore sizes do have a problem. To be "right" requires not only two decapping buttons but ALSO two outside neck diameters. Kinda hard for any die maker to design around that. ??

Fact is, dies are very simple mechanical devices. But, if Lee's designs are too complex for any user he should buy sopmething else.

No matter the brand, it takes at least a small measure of mechanical ability to understand and use them correctly.

DJ,

You have a ton of thoughtful, informative posts here that I've learned a lot from, so it irks me that some folks seem to be taking some shots at you.

But I've had the opposite experience with the Lee dies I've bought. I have had especially good results with their collet dies. I've also had good results with the RCBS and Hornady dies I've bought, but my Lee dies have all been great, and they normally include more rather than less accessories (shell holders, data, scoop).

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
Those shooting/loading an unconventional foreign cartridge that frequently has two bore sizes do have a problem. To be "right" requires not only two decapping buttons but ALSO two outside neck diameters. Kinda hard for any die maker to design around that. ??

You have a point. My point is that if you are going to do one or the other make the die the CORRECT diameter for the caliber. Make an additional die set in 7.62x53R like the Finns do for those who want to try .308 bullets in thier rifles.
Besides 7.62x54R is hardly a rare caliber. I would bet that sales figures for this caliber rifle are up towards the upper end of the charts. It just isn't commonly loaded for because of the availability of inexpensive surplus ammo and the rifles sold are usually dirt cheap surplus rifles not hunting guns.

Lee equipment in general is some of the most cleverly designed stuff reloaders use. It just that it's so cheaply manufactured it often won't stand up to hard use. Lee equipment will usually work OK for lighter duty use and for reloaders that don't load extensively. I wasn't expecting to use 7.62x54R dies a lot so thought a set of Lee's might suffice, too bad this set was improperly manufactured..............................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
DJ,

You have a ton of thoughtful, informative posts here that I've learned a lot from, so it irks me that some folks seem to be taking some shots at you.

But I've had the opposite experience with the Lee dies I've bought. I have had especially good results with their collet dies. I've also had good results with the RCBS and Hornady dies I've bought, but my Lee dies have all been great, and they normally include more rather than less accessories (shell holders, data, scoop).

Steve

Steve, thanks for the support, the "shots" don't really bother me since such insults are usually more a reflection of their ignorance and lack of knowledge than about me.

As said before, Lee dies do have thier place for lower volumn budget reloaders and niche items. I just wish they would make them better. I've worn out 2 of their priming tools. I've seen their collet crimping dies worn out, great designs poorly manufactured. My 7.62.54R dies are an exception, they are INCORRECTLY manufactured...................................DJ

J.D. Steele summed it up best I think. RCBS has turned to crap along with Hornady. RCBS does have one of the BEST customer services though.

Hint for Lee decapper rod. Take it apart and put a fine grit on it, like say a water base grinding compound, then tighten it up with correct size wrenches as mentions. If you are moving the decapping rod then something is the matter..example is a very hard crimped in military primer or a primer that is corroded in. Also no lube inside the case necks.

Joe

i read through this entire thread and don't see where anyone has taken any shots at you - on the contrary, i see people trying to offer advice based on their own experiences?

care to point out any examples of these shots taken at you?

I indeed did read te directions. I just could not get them to work without damaging the cases. So, the eastiest for me was to quit using them. I'm positive if I took the time to get them properly set, they would be fine. I just can't see the value in ruining 5 or 6 new cases to get them working. I do admit to being frugal!

If you fellows are talking about the Lee collect neck sizing dies the adjustment is easy. The die has a part sticking out of the bottom with is part of the collet. Screw the die into your press far enough so when the ram comes up it's not the camming over portion of the swing. Put a case in and start it into the die and you'll feel that separate part move and continue with little pressure and you will feel how much the ram and that die part moves until it becomes solid. Stop pressure there. Now what I do is back off and turn the case again and reapply ram pressure. I do this to insure a concentric neck. You're finished at that point. Now here's what happens if you apply too much ram pressure or set the die to cam over. the die body is steel and the top retaining cap is aluminum. If you put too much pressure on the collet the aluminum cap will pop out stripping it's threads. The only way I see of ruining brass in a collet die is if you forced the case way up inside it and the aluminum cap didn't let go.

Joe

sorry, buckeye, i meant no insult - i've often been guilty of "skipping ahead" and thought that might have happened in your case.

no worries!

quote:

it irks me that some folks seem to be taking some shots at you.

I see no such "shots". Since the post and it's title was clearly meant to rub fur the wrong way and was, as best, plain spoken it doesn't seem our of line to respond in similar language. Has anything been said that's untrue?

Perhaps no one was as insulting as the original post itself. I, for one, see no reason to quantify Lee dies as okay for a low volume shooter but not for someone who loads a lot. I load a lot and have for a long time. Lee's are not my favorite dies but they have never shown any shortcomings to me, so that's a loaded statement to drop without some kind of supporting evidence or specifics.

Pray tell, anyone, exactly what do Lee dies lack for a high volume loader? How will that lack show up, will they fall apart? Will bullets start to fall out of the cases? Will case necks be bent after sufficent number of rounds loaded? Just what do you mean, what is the point of the disparaging statements?

quote:

Pray tell, anyone, exactly what do Lee dies lack

When it takes two wrenches to tighten up the spindle to make the dies work.....and I find out the hard way because I have a spindle and sizing nipple stuck in a case.....then I have a problem with the dies.....

Hornady dies (at least used to be) the same way....

I want a threaded spindle!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Pray tell, anyone, exactly what do Lee dies lack

When it takes two wrenches to tighten up the spindle to make the dies work.....and I find out the hard way because I have a spindle and sizing nipple stuck in a case.....then I have a problem with the dies.....

Hornady dies (at least used to be) the same way....

I want a threaded spindle!

Vapour...sounds like a case of not enough inside neck lube.

My old stockmaking instructor Ed Shulin was fond of saying to us students, "(insert name here), you stupid SOB, you've gotta be smarter than the machine in order to operate it!"

Now, sometimes this approach seemed to be justified and sometimes it didn't....
Regards, Joe

Each persons mileage may vary.

I started handloading/reloading in 1968.

I started with the old Lee Loader kits, loading shotgun and rifle shells.

Have had very few problems.

I have had and do use other brands of dies, but the vast majority of my stuff is Lee.

I have used their products to load everything from 22 Hornet to 458 Win Mag..

I have killed 95% of the game I have hunted with handloads/reloads, and that is lots of things from cotton tails/jack rabbits up to moose and musk-ox.

I am not into precision shooting or using old military calibers except for my 6.5x55.

You get what you pay for, and in my experience, Lee makes good quality servicable equipment, but from the stuff I have used I would not call it "Precision" equipment, and when dealing with some of the older military calibers that have odd sized bores, Lee is probably not your best choice.

For what they cost, and the quality you get, I will continue to use Lee products.

If I ever decide to obtain one of the odd size caliber rifles, then I will look around for a manufacturer that offers the type die I am needing and buy it.

If it is Lee, so be it, if it isn't, then I will pay the extra $$$$$ to get what I need.

i can't say anything bad about lee products i use their dies and a lee press and they have ALWAYS treated me right....... i have used the lee speed dies to reload .38 spl and .357 magnum for years........ i'm not understanding the two thing.... the speed dies are all finger adjust and tighten and have never come loose.......... i thought i had sold my lee bullet sizer kit but when i cleaned out my garage today i found i still have it....... i guess i have to stick up for LEE DIES..... THEY DON'T SUCK..... every one i've gotten has done what it should (even the custom parts i got from LEE.... i broke my little lee reloader press last winter so i sent for another press body with a check to pay for it and got the press body and the check back! as i said LEE has always been good to me........

I keep Lee dies on hand for loading short runs of stuff for guns I rarely shoot, ie: pistols. Each set of these dies works fine. All of my rifle dies are either Redding or older (much older, like me) RCBS, plus a few odd Wilson dies for really "serious" work. I've heard horror stories about newer RCBS dies, but have no personal experience. The most problems I've ever had have been with Lyman dies, with the exception of some old All American's which came in individual cardboard boxes (sizers and seaters). Actually, I gotta take that back. The very worst dies were a couple of sets of Herter's entry level quality dies I started loading with back in '68. Such a crude , mis-shapen bunch of dies I never hope to see again!

I think RCBS is still running on the reputation they garnered back in the 50's and 60's when they were still a semi-custom shop. It seems as they got bigger, QC started to lag and manufacturing shortcuts were adopted. For my money, Redding is the cat's-ass today.

As an aside, I often only buy sizers as I have a good selection of Vickerman and the above mentioned Wilson straight line seaters.

quote:

Originally posted by gnoahhh:
I keep Lee dies on hand for loading short runs of stuff for guns I rarely shoot, ie: pistols. Each set of these dies works fine. All of my rifle dies are either Redding or older (much older, like me) RCBS, plus a few odd Wilson dies for really "serious" work. I've heard horror stories about newer RCBS dies, but have no personal experience. The most problems I've ever had have been with Lyman dies, with the exception of some old All American's which came in individual cardboard boxes (sizers and seaters). Actually, I gotta take that back. The very worst dies were a couple of sets of Herter's entry level quality dies I started loading with back in '68. Such a crude , mis-shapen bunch of dies I never hope to see again!

I think RCBS is still running on the reputation they garnered back in the 50's and 60's when they were still a semi-custom shop. It seems as they got bigger, QC started to lag and manufacturing shortcuts were adopted. For my money, Redding is the cat's-ass today.

As an aside, I often only buy sizers as I have a good selection of Vickerman and the above mentioned Wilson straight line seaters.

RCBS got bought up along with Speer, CCI, Federal...who is it, ATM or some company by that name? I think their dies went down hill when the switched from the in white metal finish to their current finish.

Joe

quote:

Vapour...sounds like a case of not enough inside neck lube.

nope.....it's due to the design of the product.!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Vapour...sounds like a case of not enough inside neck lube.

nope.....it's due to the design of the product.!

Then why don't I have the same problem you are? What caliber you have this problem with and how old are your dies. Lee changed their expander plug from a straight shaft to an elliptical one like Hornady.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
I, for one, see no reason to quantify Lee dies as okay for a low volume shooter but not for someone who loads a lot. I load a lot and have for a long time. Lee's are not my favorite dies but they have never shown any shortcomings to me, so that's a loaded statement to drop without some kind of supporting evidence or specifics.

Pray tell, anyone, exactly what do Lee dies lack for a high volume loader? How will that lack show up, will they fall apart? Will bullets start to fall out of the cases? Will case necks be bent after sufficent number of rounds loaded? Just what do you mean, what is the point of the disparaging statements?

I'll apologize ahead of time for not having pictures, they are indeed worth a thousand words but some or most of the offending articles have probably been relegated to the trash.

I've worn out a couple Lee hand primers. I lubed the pivot with tw25 or shooter choice grease and they still only seemed to last 5-10K rounds before they stopped being capable of seating a primer flush. I probably have a stronger grip than average and maybe that contributed but I'm also not the only person that's worn out a lee hand primer. The thing I worry the most about was the inbetween rounds between properly seated and noticably not properly seated. Admittedly 10,000 rounds is probably a lifetimes loading for many reloaders but it's not an unusual year for me. - One point to the volumn loading comment.

I used their case trimmer that uses a pilot and the bottom of the case is held in a 2 part base that you can run in an electric drill. After using the tool for ? rounds my post trimming measurements started showing the cases several thousands below trim length. The poor quality metal in the base had developed a divot from the pilots tip and peened in enough to allow the trimmer to overtrim cases. I'm sure this probably wouldn't happen in moderate use but is again a point for not working for volumn loading.

Hopefully I can find the Collet die that my freind simply wore out. The lips of the collets became so peened over from use they wouldn't properly crimp a case. - Another point for the volumn user.

I had also posted this thread on another forum and some of the comments have crossed back and forth. A very experienced High-Power shooter originally made the comment about Lee dies being best for lower volumn loaders but I agree with him. I've worn out enough Lee equipment to not deem it worthy of heavy use.


But as I've said all along Lee does have some of the cleverest designs out there. Maybe they should come out with a "Premium" line of the same tools like Collet crimp dies but with a better more polished finish and higher grade materials. I would gladly pay twice the price for Premium Factory Crimp dies in calibers I shoot a lot of. One of the reasons I stand by the statement the "Lee Dies Suck" is that their dies and other equipment are NOT manufactured at as high a quality as some of their designs deserve. I'm not saying that they should quit making the bargain stuff it probably allows a lot of reloaders to buy equipment they might not afford otherwise but it would be nice if maybe nothing else they would license some of their collet dies etc. to Redding or Forster who would make them where they would last a lifetime or two........................................DJ

No offense taken, I think it is just a function of my lack of mechanical ability!

I like the Lee 4 die pistol sets and have good luck with them.

Never used any of their rifle dies so I can't speak to that.