Just curious. I was at the range this evening and happened to glance over at a guy shooting some very "pretty" ammo that he loaded.

I asked if he tumbled his brass and he replied, "yes, but only after the round is complete. Then it all gets shiny together."

I've seen this guy a bunch at the range and he is definitely good with a rifle. BUT, seems to me like I read a long time ago that tumbling a loaded round can do something to the coating on the powder.

Comments?

Tumbling can definitely affect the deterrent coating on powder -- and thus alter the burning rate and ultimately the pressure. Light tumbling for a short time may be OK, but I still wouldn't do it. "Pretty" ammo has no usefuleness in the field, where cosmetics are absolutely meaningless. If the ammo is clean enough to function properly through the firearm, then it's just fine for the job at hand.

My first thought when I read this was "YIKES".
Seems to me it's just common sense that it could break down the coating and/or break down the structure of the powder.
Tumble it long enough and I'm sure you could turn IMR 4350 into something that looked like ball powder.
I wouldn't want to be around when that was touched off...

I know a lot of guys that do this but to me it's like building a city below sea level, eventually something bad will happen. Just tumble the brass & load it up.

NO!

NEVER!

DON'T DO IT!

Matt and Bobby have just described one of the reasons it's a real bad idea...........DJ

great idea if you want to ventilate your tumbler. what happens when tumbling bullet tips and primers meet in the bottom of the tumbler?

i don't like thinking about the outcome. scares the heck out of me.

How would the tumbling media affect the powder sealed inside the case by the bullet and primer? Has anyone ever documented some effect?

BS! Some jamoke on another forum was aguing that it would NOT cause any powder deterioration, the paranoid people insisted it would. So he set out to do an experiment. He loaded a bunch of shells with a fast powder in a large case so as to be like an 85% load density. Plenty of room for the powder to move around inside the case. IIRC it was WW ball powder. he kept some out of the tumbler for a control, then proceeded to tumble the rest. A vibratory tumbler was used. He removed shells after a week, and so on till he tested the last ones after 1 MONTH! They were shot over a chronograph and at a target for groups, then the control shells were tested alongside. NO DIFFERENCE in either velocity or group size.

Ah ha! I found the forum afor mentioned.
tumbler test

As for the tip of a bullet setting off another primer, if your primers are THAT sensitive, better not sneeze too loud around your ammo! Think about it for a second. How much force does a firing pin have? Plenty is my answer! Just how does another bullet have that much kenetic energy when it's in a tumbler? The tips of most bullets are softer than a steel firing pin as well.

I bought my tumbler from Dillon and their directions suggest tumbling of live rounds but in a non committal way....It's something like "we know folks are doing it successfully but we don't recommend it"

I've tumbled live .223 rounds with ball powder for up to an hour with no ill effects at all. However these are loaded densely with no space for powder to move inside the case. I suspect that there's a lot of myth in the tumbling debate.

After reading of the test of tumbling live rounds of up to a month it seems like it's not such a bad thing to do.

So will someone do a test with stick powder please?
JL.

JAL
Well said!!!!!

Hey Doc, I don't do it and never will.

I do understand the arguments about Factory Ammo riding around in a pick-up for years, then found and shot with no problems. I'd imagine a good many people do that without incident every year.

The problem with realizing that happens and "believing" the 1-month Vibration Test, is that it goes against the knowledge of "Deterrent Coating". Certainly not saying the other guys are wrong at all, just saying it isn't what I will be doing.

I strive to get excellent accuracy with slower burning powders where my Loads are slightly compressed. At least when I "shake" a cartridge I don't hear any Powder clunking around. Hopefully that eliminates the possibility of it happening in "my" cartridges.

Best of luck to all you guys.

Well, tumbling live ammo is something I've never considered, so I'll make some calls this weekend to the former Jensen's Custom Ammunition in Tucson, AZ where I used to work in the summer some 15+ years ago.

I'll send Hodgdon, Alliant, and VV some emails too.

Now my curiosity is peaked. I have an old rifle and I know some loads it likes. I also have a tree I can hide behind and a long string to pull the trigger.

I will do my own little test but I'm not going to tumble loaded ammo for a whole month. I can't imagine that any ill effects on powder would take more than 12 hours at the most. And who needs to tumble that long anyway?

I have a warehouse where my tumbler sits and I'll keep you all posted. I'll tumble the stuff there.

Oh, it's a .308 and the load is 165 Ballistic Tip and 44.5 grains IMR 4064.

Heading out to the range in a few...Fine tuning the 130 Scirocco. Man that bullet is accurate.

So you don't all have to wade through that other forum to find what I alluded to, here's the gist of it;

Fabricator and Kestrou are correct here; in fact, the factories tumbled your factory loaded ammo before packaging without incident or pressure increases (the powder breakdown theory is a myth). Several years ago, one of the Ohio section guys (may have been Jeff Maass - do a search) did an expirament where he tumbled reloads with 3 types of powder: flake, ball and extruded. He tumbled them 24 hours a day for several WEEKS. At week intervals, he removed samples and tested them with NO change in performance over the chrono.

My foggy memory recalled only some of the points of the test. He used all three of the powder types.

Folks, there just isn't enough motion in a vibratory tumbler to cause any problems. A drum type however is another story all together.

I never did it until I got my dillon 650. Pre-lubing .223 and .308 requires clean-up of loaded rounds. I simply tumble in bare corn cob media for 10 - 20 minutes to remove the lube, no problemo!

A friend of mine still has pieces of a mauser action in his shoulder and upper arm. The rifle was a 6.5mm mauser powder was RE 19. The rounds got dropped one day gettin out of his pick up and he didnt clean em immediately. A few days later he put em in a tumbler with untreated corn cob for about an hour and a half. That weekend we went to the range and the very first shot sent us both to the emergency room. Its a shame too. That rifle was extremely accurate. Later we pulled the bullets and examined the powder and yes the coating was messed up for lack of a better word. It looked like fine powdered graphite. Some granules had white showing. I assume this is the nitro cellulose /nitroglycerine mixture.

To tumble or not to tumble, that is the question! Personaly my tumbling is way in the past when I seat the bullets. But they way my groups have been lately , hummmm after seating tumbling might make a new powder or at least work all the lumps out of it.

I posted the first time without reading the post by Russ Blumbelow. That should close the question quite fast and I see exactly what he means about the coating being disturbed. With all the distruction of the coating and other ingredients no telling what kind of powder it became! Glad it wasn't any worse Russ and your post should stop all the after bullet seating tumbling! Thanks!

The only reloader series powders I have experience with are RX22, and RX19. Both are coarse grained which could have helped in the break down during tumbling. A single base powder may not have reacted that severely. Now if I want to make them look pretty I chuck the case in the appropriate lee lock stud used for the lee trimmer and chuck it in my cordless drill and spin em with some fine steel wool. The whole process doesnt take as long as it does to tumble cases. I still tumble fired cases because it doesnt take up "my" time to clean them.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

guy shooting some very "pretty" ammo that he loaded.

This is kinda off the subject, but I happened upon a way to make it look real good and more resistant to fingerprints, getting dirty, etc.

I use a Zip Trim and use steel wool to clean the brass, but one had a stain on it that wouldn't come off so I put a dab of Flitz on it and gave the Zip Trim a pull while spreading the Flitz with my fingers. Of course, it turned black but then I put a cloth on it and cleaned it off and it put a mirror finish on that case. It was so smooth and slippery that I couldn't hardly hold on to it. Now I do it to all my finished rounds. They chamber slicker than bacon grease on a door knob and resist oxidation and dirt a lot better.

I gave up my tumbler when I got the Zip Trim anyway.

FWIW

Doc:
Tumbling loaded ammo is a very dangerous NO-NO.
Powder will be broken down into very fine power or dust which can have very dangerous results.
Don't even think about it.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Doc:
Tumbling loaded ammo is a very dangerous NO-NO.
Powder will be broken down into very fine powDer or dust which can have very dangerous results.
Don't even think about it.

Oh? Then why didn't it do that in this test?

Fabricator and Kestrou are correct here; in fact, the factories tumbled your factory loaded ammo before packaging without incident or pressure increases (the powder breakdown theory is a myth). Several years ago, one of the Ohio section guys (may have been Jeff Maass - do a search) did an expirament where he tumbled reloads with 3 types of powder: flake, ball and extruded. He tumbled them 24 hours a day for several WEEKS. At week intervals, he removed samples and tested them with NO change in performance over the chrono.

In the case of Russ's friend, it's possible that the double base reloader powder degrades when other types of single based powder don't. OR some other factor caused the rifle to come apart.

The ammo I tumble is 100% load density and surplus ball powder besides. I will keep doing it without the slightest worries.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

guy shooting some very "pretty" ammo that he loaded.

This is kinda off the subject, but I happened upon a way to make it look real good and more resistant to fingerprints, getting dirty, etc.

I use a Zip Trim and use steel wool to clean the brass, but one had a stain on it that wouldn't come off so I put a dab of Flitz on it and gave the Zip Trim a pull while spreading the Flitz with my fingers. Of course, it turned black but then I put a cloth on it and cleaned it off and it put a mirror finish on that case. It was so smooth and slippery that I couldn't hardly hold on to it. Now I do it to all my finished rounds. They chamber slicker than bacon grease on a door knob and resist oxidation and dirt a lot better.

I gave up my tumbler when I got the Zip Trim anyway.

FWIW

I use flitz as a tumbler additive to charge up the bare corn cob media. It shines brass like a new gold piece!

Posted 03 September 2005 15:46
So will someone do a test with stick powder please?
JL.[/quote]

I know it is not the best practice but i have donit with IMR 4350 and H4831 and RL-22
no ill affects but I the back of my mind i felt like i was filling my tank with a cigeratte
in my mouth.

sooner or later it might get me...

But i have done it on occasion

Let me state clearly that I can not remember where I read it, (therefore what follows has litttle more credibility than a story), there is a incident of a chap tumbling 7mmRem mag ammunition which resulted in a blown action.



I DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO!

opinions are nice, don't mean to be a thread killer, ...


someone might call all military arms factories in the world and tell them they are making bombs...

and remington...

and olin (winchester)

and ever over commerical ammo maker....


oh, and don't even THINK of shipping powder or loaded ammo... especially don't drop it out of airplanes on short drop chutes...


B U L L U C K S

sorry guys, a tumbler or in the back of a truck for a weke in transit... ask sureself which imparts more energy into the loaded case..

Do you honestly think all those pretty rounds that sit on a shelf, after being loaded, inspected, test lots fired, and packaged aren't tumbled?

do you think china lake, LAAP, remingtonAAP, the 6 other national arms factories, and the 200+ other national shell plantsa don't tumbled loaded stuff??

go tumble an empty for a hour....

rub it back and forth in your hand for 90 seconds...

sit it on a shelf, and tell me if it looks "shiney" in a week

jeffe

Right, wrong or indifferent I dont do it. I figure that there is so much in life I cant control that I should exercise the option to control the things I can.

Good luck and good shooting,
Eterry

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
So will someone do a test with stick powder please?
JL.

I did last night. 06 filled to shoulder neck junction with 4350 and caped of with a crimped 150 gr FP. Tumbled for 4 1/2 hours.The individual powder cylinders look good. There was , however a substantial amount of powdery dark gray material that came out of the case.

Unfortunatly I did this with a fired case and the particulate matter could have been residue from the last shooting.

I'll redo the test with a virgin case today roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
So will someone do a test with stick powder please?
JL.

I did last night. 06 filled to shoulder neck junction with 4350 and caped of with a crimped 150 gr FP. Tumbled for 4 1/2 hours.The individual powder cylinders look good. There was , however a substantial amount of powdery dark gray material that came out of the case.

Unfortunatly I did this with a fired case and the particulate matter could have been residue from the last shooting.

I'll redo the test with a virgin case today roger

I did my test too. Tumbled virgin brass with Re22 in 7 mag, H4350 in 7 mag and 270. I tumbled them long enough to "make them pretty," which was about 20 minutes.

I used a bullet puller and the powder appeared to be identical to that which was still in the container.

I tumbled some Re19 in 270 cases for 2 hours. Just pulled 4 of 5 and powder looked the same. I can't see any reason to tumble longer than that, but still, the powders appearance tells me nothing of its potential new burn rate. But I certainly could not tell any difference in its appearance.

Finally, I tumbled quite a few 308 with IMR 4064 and again, same results. I'll fire those today with a string pull while I'm safely tucked away behind an oak.

It's 1:45 Eastern time. I'll be back in an hour.

No load problems or accuracy deficits with tumbled ammo.

But this is a small test. I still won't tumble the stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
So will someone do a test with stick powder please?
JL.

I did last night. 06 filled to shoulder neck junction with 4350 and caped of with a crimped 150 gr FP. Tumbled for 4 1/2 hours.The individual powder cylinders look good. There was , however a substantial amount of powdery dark gray material that came out of the case.

Unfortunatly I did this with a fired case and the particulate matter could have been residue from the last shooting.

I'll redo the test with a virgin case today roger

Repeated 4 1/2 hour test with virgin case;

The powder looked as good as when it was put in. Almost no particulate matter. If you used your imagination a little you might think you see under magnification a little rounding on the individual powder cylinder edges but it takes a lot of imagination.I'm sure in the past that this stuff had to undergo much more servere Government vibration testing than the magnitude and duration seen in the tumbling we do.

Good show Doc roger

Forgot! I have some pictures of what came out of the cases that are quite interesting. Will be glad to E-mail them as I never posted a pic before. PM me eMail address if you want them roger

If there are still any doubters regarding the safety of this practice I would suggest you contact David Goucher in Webb City Missouri and ask him about his 22-250 that he blew up. His cases were nice and shiny though.

I am not a doubter. I see no reason to tumble finished ammo. I was just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
If there are still any doubters regarding the safety of this practice I would suggest you contact David Goucher in Webb City Missouri and ask him about his 22-250 that he blew up. His cases were nice and shiny though.

So one guy,(uh make that two,,, no three(, had rifles blow up after tumbling loaded rounds. No mention in any of these cases about what type of tumbler was used.?¿
"Folks, there just isn't enough motion in a vibratory tumbler to cause any problems. A drum type however is another story all together."

We also have to wonder if there were other problems with the rifles used.

Roger, a case filled to the shoulder/neck junction, then a bullet seated, leaves very little if ANY room for the powder to move around,(100% load density). I'm going to do a test myself. I'll pick a load that's at 10% under max with a fast double based stick powder. That should yield a load with about 75% load density. R 15 in a .308 should be about right. Virgin brass, with a control group left un-tumbled. Then five rounds removed at 1 hr, 5 hrs, 10- 15-20 and 24 hrs.

My FA tumbler,(midway), filled with untreated corn-cob media. I'll pull one bullet to inspect the apperance of the powder, re-seat it and fire the 5 rounds over a chrono AND at a target.

I lean strongly toward the NO DIFFERENCE side, but this test could change my mind. If it yields a no difference, some will still argue it does. Let the test begin!

The guys who tumble loaded rounds are just like the ones who continually load to velocities way above normal but don't have "pressure signs". You might get by with it for years and years and then all of a sudden something happens and a gun blows up, I've seen it happen.
It's not worth the potential hazards. A lost eye or finger isn't worth all the shiny brass in the world. Don't tumble loaded rounds..............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
The guys who tumble loaded rounds are just like the ones who continually load to velocities way above normal but don't have "pressure signs". You might get by with it for years and years and then all of a sudden something happens and a gun blows up, I've seen it happen.
It's not worth the potential hazards. A lost eye or finger isn't worth all the shiny brass in the world. Don't tumble loaded rounds..............DJ

And the guys that don't tumble, believing what they heard, are paranoid. Just go numbly along, not bothering to question whether something makes sense or not.

It don't make sense to me. But I will remain open minded while I do my experiment.

again,
EVERY round in ALL Military rounds (except the painted eastern bloc stuff) are tumbled...

period

If YOU don't want to tumble, that's great. The rest is bullucks..

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
again,
EVERY round in ALL Military rounds (except the painted eastern bloc stuff) are tumbled...

period

Jeffe, sorry but I can't yet accept that as fact. If Military rounds are all tumbled why can you still see the neck anneal on military rounds? If they were tumbled after final loading this anneal mark would be polished off. Maybe they go through some sort of mild cleaning but not a full polish tumble like is being discussed here.
I'm open to further proof, but the obvious evidence -the anneal mark- is to the contrary of your claim.................DJ

DJ,
no worries.. and yeah, it's all fun...

but my inlaws have worked for a couple generations at the LAAP Lousianna army ammuition plant, under it's various names and contrcots running it (my wife is from the town across from the secndary gate.. doyline)

they tumble EVERYTHING that comes out, and after it's tumbled it's not touched by hands unless they are in gloves or with plastic "tongs" (it's actually a hook/bill that my father in law invented)

jeffe

I'm still waiting for emails from Hodgdon and Alliant.