It seems that every time one of us Handloaders makes a comment about the accuracy he gets from certain rifles, there are always the naysayers and non-believers. I have a real problem w/ that negative attitude and incourage those folks to get out more.

First of all, I don't try to brag on any of my rifles because there's always that quiet fella than can shut you up real fast when he pulls out his favorite ole' paper puncher. In the area I roam and the local ranges I shoot at, accurate factory rifles are very common.

I personally don't see 1/2" groups at 100 yards being just fantastic, they are good don't get me wrong. Those of you that think that's medal winning material need to get to a couple of groups shoots where real bench resters go at it. Matter of fact, just go buy a bench rest book from the local bookstore and you'll see that those fellas can shoot some scary groups.

I'm also not talking about shooting in the .5s every time you are up to bat. Heck, we all have bad days especially when the caffeine levels get high but, on a good calm day w/ a properly tuned load there are piles of factory rigs that will throw 1/2" and less groups w/ regularity.

I've never found it all that hard to make some factory rifles shoot small groups w/ the proper handloads. I can think of at least 7 factory rifles that my shooting friends an I shoot regularly that will print groups that basically tear one ragged hole at 100 yards and easily go below an inch at 200. Believe me, none of us are fixin' to run out to any bench rest competition w/ these rigs, they're just hunting set-ups.

Some of those rifles are sporter weights. Any of you shot an A-bolt or M70 w/ a BOSS lately? the last few I toyed w/ different loads would print tiny groups at 100 when the timing was set just right for that load.

Oh, this will really get to you non-believers.... I bought a cheap Model 700 ADL at Wal-Mart in 7RM. Dropped it in a HS Precision stock and it will put em' in the .4s and .5s like there's no tommorrow w/ 160 Sierras and 150 NBTs loaded ontop of R22.

Bought another cheap ADL for the wife in 270 from you guessed it, Wally World and it'll go in the .6s w/ ease. Can't wait to drop it in a Glassed Boyds or HS Precision stock as well. I believe it will shrink those groups down. The wife just wants it to be minute-of-deer so I've been just letting it lay the last few years.

Come on Guys, it can't just be a freak thing. Heck, me and the fellas out at the range strive for those itty bitty groups. If you can throw a dime over em' at 100 and a nickel over em' at 200 you have found the right load in our bunch.

I'm not talking about a bunch of rednecks shooting of of truck hoods either. We use High dollar optics, quality bench rests, leather sand bags, Concrete Benches, wind socks, Modern Reloading equip, etc.. etc...

You fellas experienced the same?


Reloader

Of the 200 or so bolt action rifles I've owned to date, about 10% of the unmodified factory rifles have been capable of relatively consistent three shot 0.5 MOA or better. If I just consider 721s, 722s, and 700s, that number would be closer to 15-20%. Just my experience...

shooting groups from a bench has never been a strong point of mine. like you say...too much of the three basic food groups, caffine, nicotine and alcohol but i do have a cz 527 american in 223 that, once i found the load(27.5 grns w748 and a 50 grn nosler solid base) did shoot 6 consecutive groups under .5". i haven't shot any more groups with it because i don't want to ruin my record for guys who are good off the bench it may not be a big deal but i'm still bragging about it.

I have owned dozens of rifles in several different flavors....only two that come to mind were consistently that accurate basically out of the box as long as they had appropriate ammo, optics and targets. My sons TC Contender carbine in .204 Ruger would be very very close and an old Savage 22-250 I have.....Almost anything that fit in the chamber of either one shot quite well

I have two Tikkas, one in .25-06 Rem., and one
in .223 Rem. that came out of the box, and
fired factory ammo, under 1 MOA. Both are
shooting hand loads under .5 MOA. I have
a Savage 16, in .22-250 Rem. that shoot factory
ammo, right at 1 MOA, and is shooting hand
loads, consistently into .5 MOA groups, with
some getting into the .3 MOA range.

Probably the biggest surprise for me, was a
couple of AR-15's. The RRA Varminter started
shooting sub MOA groups, and did nothing
but get better as I got the shot count up to
200 on the barrel. Needless to say, I have gone
over to the dark side!

With handloads, and some accurizing, I have
only had a couple of dogs that would not get
to sub MOA groups. The lastest frustration
was a T/C Encore. I have given up on a couple of
Remington 700s, and one Winchester M70.

For me now, I pretty much stick to Tikkas, and
Savages. If I want a "standard" chamber,
and I can find a Tikka model I like, then I
get a Tikka. If I want something different,
I buy a Savage, in one of their "standard"
offerings, and then buy a barrel, in something
different, and change out the barrel. I do
not care about "pretty" rifles, and I DO NOT
collect guns. My brother has a safe full of
"pretty" guns, that he cleans, but never shoots.
Me, my safe is full of accurate guns that get
shot, OFTEN. And yes a number higher than
50% came out of the box shooting sub MOA
groups, with carefully crafted hand loads.

Squeeze

Just last year I bought a slightly-used .338 Savage Model 116, which is stainless, with fluted barrel, and in a plastic stock. It has the on-off muzzle brake as well. It fired exactly six rounds before I bought it, and the gent threw in the remaining 14 factory rounds. I mounted a silver Leupold 3-9x VX-II on it.

I loaded and fired about eighty rounds with Hornady 225s, getting a decent zero for practice etc.

With NO TUNING except a minor lightening of the trigger pull (non-Acu-trigger) I set out to find my elk load with Barnes 225-grain TSX bullets. Using Reloder 19, I pulled three loads right out of the book and went shooting.

Firing only three rounds per group (this being a hunting rifle, after all) the rifle gave me an initial group of just under 3/4" and the next two were in the .4s!!! At that point, I declared that I HAD my elk load, and a danged good one, at that. Fate decreed no elk for me, but I bang-flopped a nice white-tail at 290+ laser-ranged yards.

I believe this inexpensive rifle to be one of the rare (to me) 1/2" rifles. I'm eager to get after a loading project with it to see just how well it'll do with some careful adjustment of loads.

I have one rifle out of five that shoots consistent .5" groups. It's a cheap Savage Model 10 in .223. I had the trigger worked, but the rest of the rifle is unchanged. I have several rifles that shoot 3/4 to 1" consistently.

Well according to all those who loathe the factory rifles, .5 groups are rare.

I have several rare rifles!

I don't spend much time at a bench but I have several rifles that will shoot close to 1/2" groups Redneck style. If I can shoot into 1 MOA prone, sitting, bipod, or Redneck then how is it that decent shooting rifles are so hard for others to find?

I do adjust triggers, have tried to learn the craft of bedding my own and have done a couple. But really I'm not going to claim my attempts at bedding are to blame for the accuracy.

I think overall that the average rifle is more capable than the average shooter.

after working with a Ruger Sporter in 22.250 the past 2 weeks, it never ceases to amaze me on what an difference on accuracy that handloading will do....

after testing out 15 different powders.. plain old IMR 4895 with Budget minded Winchester Bulk 55 grain SPs... turned in several one hole 5 shot groups at 100 yds....Some powders like H 4895 turned in 2 and 3 inch groups with the same bullet....

The scope was Tasco World Class Plus in 3 x 9....
stock is the plain old Ruger Factory Laminate that come with the Stainless Steel barrels and receivers....

While I love high end optics.. I guess I am more fond of having more rifles with cheaper optics, than fewer rifles with expensive optics and spendy trendy stocks....

I guess I'd rather have something that gets the job done, than trying to impress someone else on how much money I have invested in my equipment....

Like the day at the range, that these guys were down at one end of the benches shooting their high end rifles and optics with spendy bullets at something waaaay out pass the 500 meter targets....after swapping pleasantries... and 'showing interest" to be neighborly while they showed me their $4,000 custom rifles from Darryl Holland, with their $2,000 to $2500.00 imported scopes.. chambered in the trendy 6.5 x 284, shooting Berger 140 grain Match bullets.... at a rock at 725 yds, that was about the size of a 2 drawer file cabinet.....

So I went down to the other end of the benches... take out my Model 70 in 243, with a handload of 38 grains of H 4895, and shooting cheap 80 grain Winchester bulk bullets.... topped with a cheap Cabelas 6 power Pine Ridge scope, with $25.00 Stoney Point target turrents on them....

I spin up the target turrents to 16 inchs high at 100 yds, and let a shot loose.... falls short..windage good.... crank it up to 19 inches high, and the shot goes just over the target... compensate down to 18 inches... dust flies off of the rock...

The spotter tells his two shooters, one of you hit it! Both reply, they didn't shoot... I was the only other guy on the range....

So they mozey down to my end of the benches.. and congradulate me.. and ask about my equipment...

like" is that a 24 power scope or a 36 power".... and what brand is that????

What caliber is that??? I respond 6mm... " oh, a 6 x 284?).....

Custom barrel???

Nope.. factory 243 Winchester... 6 power cabelas scope... 80 grain Winchester SP......

These guys just say, "OH......" and then walk back and pack up all of their equipment and go home.....

I never mind the guys with the high end equipment until they think it means they can walk on water... and try to act all snobby about it...

I have two 1/2" rifles (if I do my part). One is a nice RRA AR with a 24" bull barrel in .223. I still can't quite belive how nice this "black gun" will do. My best group was just under 1/2" using 24.9 gr of AA2230 and a 55gr VMAX. On a windy day I can expect about 3/4".

The other is a new Savage 12 also in .223. Took a bit more work to find a nice load, but it will shoot .5 consistantly. 23.3 gr of AA2460 and a 60 gr VMAX. Seems to like the heavier bullet more.

Only thing I did to the Savage was adjust the Accutrigger. With the AR, all it took was a bit of experimentation with reloads.

Wish I could get my Savage 110 in .308 to shoot better, but that will probably involve a bedding job. Oh well, got to learn somehow!

I have only had one factory 0.5 MOA rifle. It was a Sako DeLuxe in 300 Win. It shot everything EXCEPT 180 grainers into .5" or less. I couldn't find a single 180 grain load it liked.

Rem 700 ADL .270 tupperware stock.
Best group so far was .39 center to center.

I responded negativly to a post put up by a member that has responded to your post. my original negatism was in response to a new guy asking what kind of groups he could expect from a certain rifle. [forget what one] Ricadelli posted the same targets that he has posted here and told the kid that with a little patience and work this is what he could do. If [a real big if] he shot those groups at the distance he said he shot them with what he says that he shot them with the groups are one in a million, if he could do that with any regularity he would be setting bench rest records with a factory Ruger. My real beef with that is that a young guy wanting to get into shooting, looks at these groups that he is told are common and gets discouraged to the point of giving up the game when he sees what his groups are like. It is a real diservice to anyone in that spot if they were true. Take a look at the results of a few of the group matches that are listed on either the I.B.S. or the N.B.R.S.A. sites and tell me that you believe that he can do that whenever he feels the urge. I told him then and repeat B.S. I think his classic come back was not a defense of his story but K.M.A. I for ne think that it is just an egotist saying look what I can do, which as I say is not my gripe with him. As far as I am concerned he can tell stories all day long. If he would just give a new guy a break and tell him that it will be a while before your reloading skills and bench work will allow you to do this, but it can be done. It will still be B.S. but will be doing a lot less harm than he is doing now.

Reloader: I'd have to say that if your equipment list of rests, optics, concrete benches, wind flags, etc, was in use by the majority of the shooters that frequent these boards, more would step forward to claim the 1/2" groups. I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that of that list, the most important items to make those groups consistently are the wind flags, the quality rests and bags, and high quality optics. Wind flags are probably the most important. I personally don't feel the need to get that deep into the sport. From my own limited experience, I have seen what a slight change of wind will do to groups, particularly at 200 and beyond. Without some sort of indicator out there, you may never see the change. I've seen it, but I don't have enough experience to adapt to the change consistently. In your post, you don't state whether you are shooting 3 or 5 shot groups. That alone will make a big difference. My last observation is that from the tone of your post, you and your buddies probably spend more time shooting than most, and your experience continues to keep you a step ahead experience-wise than the guys like me; I enjoy it at the level I take it to, you are an enthusiast who takes it to a level higher than most. And thats a good thing!

Rem 700 VLS 22-250, best it has done was .2 but will shoot approx .5" groups constantly if I do my part.

Rem 700 BDL 300 win mag, .5 to .75" groups if I do my part.

Both rifles are bone stock with the exception of trigger work and handloads.

At this point I only have one .5 shooter. It is my CZ 550 American in 9.3x62. My last trip to the range it produced a .506 and a .309. I have two new rifles to work on and some older ones that need more range time. I am confident that by next hunting season I will have more rifles in the .5 or close to it catagory.

Yeah 284, I see your point. We just like to burn alot of powder, it's a great way to get from the end of January to October w/ the exception of a couple of weeks of turkey hunting and a few fishing outings. Good Hobby I guess, get's a little expensive but, most hobbies do in today's world.

That's three shot groups. I just don't personally see the need for the two extras. If it will not do it in three, it sure as heck aint gonna make it there w/ two more. I like to load for at least two 3 shot groups of each combo during load development. Once I find a couple of combos that shrink things down a bit, I'll make a bigger batch to verify.

Have a Good One,

Reloader

I have one factory stock rifle that would consistently shoot (3 shot) 1/2" groups, if I did my part. It's a 788 Remington lefty in 308.

Every other gun that shoots into 1/2" has taken serious modifications to get down to that level.

many more 1/2" groups are fired on the internet than at the shooting ranges.....guaranteed.....seems every time I ask to have someone show me the proof I get this blank expression and the comment.....well it was shooting 1/2" last week.

Try fishing...it's more consistant.

Vapodog, you are 100% right, a true 1/2 inch factory gun is a rare breed indeed. I hope that 284 was discounting the gun when he listed the order of importance of the tools used in bench rest. You really don't think that guys are spending three grand a whack on guns that canbe equaled in accuracy with a factory rifle. I really do not care at all who is bull shiting who here, all I say is what I have already said, don't go telling kids that they should be able to do something that you may have done once by accident and have all but no chance of ever doing again. I really don't know on the fishing Vapo, after chasing Atlantic Salmon all over Maine and Canada, I seem to have noticed a bit of inconsistancy there also.

I have one:

Hey Reloader

I shoot at a large range in Houston, so you can imagine that it gets entertaining sometimes. The shooters that are shooting the kind of groups you are talking about are almost exclusively in 2 groups.

One group has the semi-benchrest rifles that have bull barrels and oversize synthetic stocks, not really made for hunting. Among this group there are a few reloaders, but mostly young shooters who have one or two guns and shoot factory loads cause their guns are made to shoot 1/2" off the bench.

The other group has hunting rifles in various calibers and are almost exclusively reloaders. They shoot consistant 1" or smaller groups and the occasional 1/2" or one holers happen.

Seems like for the other 90% of shooters that show up mostly right before hunting season, a 2" to 3" groups makes them happy.

As for me, I shoot only guns I hunt with and only have one gun that will shoot 1/4" to 1/2" every time the wind is right and I do my part. That is a Sako Stainless Synthetic 270 that has a McMillan stock. The rest are consistant 1" shooters that will (because of statistical probability) shoot a 1/4" to 1/2" group (4 shots). Once inside a consistant 1", I start looking for a load shooting a hunting bullet with the most velocity I can get.

B. Beyer: I don't think Reloader was thinking specifically of true benchrest shooting, nor was I. That is an entirely different discussion, starting with custom/semi-custom actions, hi-quality/big dollar aftermarket barrels, and tons o'money to toss on optics,components, time invested, etc. No way are we in the same league as those guys. He did say "accurate factory rifles". And I, too, agree with Vapodog that Internet groups always seem to hover around that magical 1/2". But not mine.....yet. I'm thinking that he's thinking your run of the mill, off the shelf Remington, or Ruger, etc.

How'd I do?

quote:

many more 1/2" groups are fired on the internet than at the shooting ranges

I think you guys better leave some targets under your pillow tonight for the truth fairy.

Consistantcy and probability is key. I don't doubt that there are factory rifles that are capable of shooting 1/2 inch but will it do it CCONSISTANTLY with multiple bullets, across multiple weights, day in and day out. I have one factory rifle that will do it and I would trade my grandma before I sold it.

Rebarreling with a match grade barrel increases the probability that group size will shrink over a factory gun...but doesn't guarentee it. To me, when you have a factory gun that won't shoot 1/2 MOA (30 cal and under) then take it to a gunsmith and rebarrel.

Have a few that will shoot sub MOA.

Remington .223 VSSF shoots consistant 2's and 3's

Winchester Heavy Varminter 22-250 shoots consistant 3's and 4's.

Remington .220 Swift shoots consistant .5 or under MOA.

The rest of my rifles are rebarreled etc.

quote:

I shoot at a large range in Houston

Hey Woods, I am assuming you mean ASC. I will second your assessment.

quote:

Originally posted by JMJ888:
Consistantcy and probability is key. I don't doubt that there are factory rifles that are capable of shooting 1/2 inch but will it do it CCONSISTANTLY with multiple bullets, across multiple weights, day in and day out. I have one factory rifle that will do it and I would trade my grandma before I sold it.

I don't expect a rifle to shoot all weights of bullets equally well. If it has a middle of the road twist for the given caliber it will shoot the middle weights better than the high/low weights. Those who want to shoot heavy/longer bullets whould get a rifle with the right twist for the application.

I have a rifle that will consistantly shoot .3s from the bench after barrel break-in and with handloads.

I have one honest to goodness 1/2" rifle. Its my Savage 12FV in .223. The only time I had it out of the stock was to adjust the accutrigger. A couple of weeks ago I shot 6 consecutive 3 and 5 shot groups from .30 to .43". (52g Hornady bthp match, BL-C2).

I was so excited I've been carrying the target around in my clipboard at work, but nobody cares!

A 40 year old savage 340d does close to 1/2" for me, too.

The problem with having one realy good rifle, is now I'm disappointed in the rest that may shoot "only" .8". And 1.5" is now totaly unacceptable.

quote:

I don't expect a rifle to shoot all weights of bullets equally well. If it has a middle of the road twist for the given caliber it will shoot the middle weights better than the high/low weights

I'm not talking extreme ranges. For example, 1 in 10" .308, 165-220gr. Mainly 180's, 190's, and 200's. I think that is very reasonable given the twist.

quote:

Originally posted by JMJ888:
[QUOTE]

Consistantcy and probability is key. I don't doubt that there are factory rifles that are capable of shooting 1/2 inch but will it do it CCONSISTANTLY with multiple bullets, across multiple weights, day in and day out. I have one factory rifle that will do it and I would trade my grandma before I sold it.

Rebarreling with a match grade barrel increases the probability that group size will shrink over a factory gun...but doesn't guarentee it. To me, when you have a factory gun that won't shoot 1/2 MOA (30 cal and under) then take it to a gunsmith and rebarrel.

How about this. This is my CZ 550 American 9.3x62. This hole is 5 rounds fired by me, 286gr Partition, 65gr of BigGame followed by another 5 rounds fired by my hunting partner with 270gr Speer with 65gr of BigGame. Not bad for 10 rounds, two shooters and 2 different bullets.

Im proud to show off my good groups but I sure not going to post my bad ones.

I shot a real good 3 shot group with a 742 Carbine which I posted.

The reply, "even a blind hog finds an acorn one in awhile" That was a reply from Jack Belk.

I have several factory rifles that when it isn't too windy (I live in one of the 3 windiest city's in the USA) and I do my part (which isn't always) and with it's preferred load will shoot 1/2 3shot groups at 100yds.
Now there is a big difference between shooting 3 shot and 5 shot groups and a huge difference between the 10shot groups they shoot in benchrest competition. I try to qualify the number of shots and whether or not a given group is an exception or relatively common. "As far as 3 or 5 shots I'm with the crowd that thinks that in a hunting rifle if you can't hit it with 3 shots you need to practice more off the bench instead of shooting 5 shot groups on the bench.
Notice that I didn't say that my rifles shoot 1/2" every time, but is that the fault of the rifle, me or the wind? With the quality of bullets and other components that we have now adays it's not all that uncommon to have a factory rifle shoot 3 shot 1/2" groups at 100, a couple manufacturers guarantee it! But trying to restrict it to all bullet weights makes less sense to me in a hunting rifle - I find a load it likes and leave it. Why wear out a barrel throat working up a load for a bullet weight you won't use hunting?
To those of you who think that 1/2" groups are BS I'm more than willing to releave you of any amount of money you are willing to bet. I shoot at a large enough gun club and have shot with enough other shooters to verify groups someone calling BS is laughable. I'll prove it to you in person but bring your wallet.........................DJ

djpaintles, are you saying that these are factory stock guns that are shooting 1/2 in. groups. I am not saying 1/2 groups arwe B.S. I shot 6 groups today and none of them were over 1/2 inch. What I am saying [again] is that groups of that size in a factory gun are very rare. The groups that Mr. Ricadelli says he shoots with a stock Ruger, I am saying B.S. It just ain't gonna happen. If you read the post of mine, you must realize that I don't give a rats ass if he yells it from rooftops, I just think it sucks that he palms his crap off on kids that are trying to learn about a great sport, and are so discouraged after comparing their shooting with what he says he does they quit the game. You must realize, comparing WORLD RECORDS with what some [a few] of these guys say they shoot that they are full of bull. As I say nobody disputes 1/2 inch groups, see them every day, but that is with a gun designed to do exactly that , the rests, flags, and all that good stuff. I shot 2 flies off a target today, 1 shot each at 100 yards, so what, I am not telling some new kid he should be able to do it.

B Beyer, This was the first 3 shot group I fired from a box stock factory rifle, I put a scope on it, fired 1 shot to see I was on paper and then fired the following 3 shots:



This is a 6 1/2 lb magnum rifle too.

This another box stock Kimber but at 200yds:



This is a different kimber 270 WSM and I did bed the floorplate so the magazine box wouldn't bind but is otherwise stock. At 100yds:



Here is a box stock Sako M-75 300 Ultra at 200yds:



I got several other 200yd group pics under 1". I shoot more at 200 than at 100yds and find a 1" group at 200 is rarer than a 1/2" at 100 but you get the point.
With carefull handloading and proper shooting technique it's really not that hard or uncommon to have a factory rifle shoot more than couple 3 shot 1/2" groups at 100yds. 5 shot groups are of course much harder and rarer.
With a little coaching I've had several pretty inexperienced shooters fire just about as good of groups with my own rifles. Women are usually easier to teach than men since they will actually listen and try to do what you tell them. But I don't think it's at all unrealistic to tell a new shooter that with proper handloading and shooting technique that he to should be able to start shooting a few 1/2"ers before too long. If they hang around and listen to some of the people here on the forums they can pick up a lot of good advice - if they learn to filter the real BS....... ......DJ

quote:

To those of you who think that 1/2" groups are BS I'm more than willing to releave you of any amount of money you are willing to bet. I shoot at a large enough gun club and have shot with enough other shooters to verify groups someone calling BS is laughable. I'll prove it to you in person but bring your wallet.........................DJ

Yep, they'd have to bring a pocket full out to our range on a cool calm day. I know a handful of fellas that would love to wager that their Sendero's, LTR's, and 700Ps "wouldn't" shoot below a 1/2" .

quote:

I shoot more at 200 than at 100yds and find a 1" group at 200 is rarer than a 1/2" at 100 but you get the point.

You got that right, I've only got 3 that will bust an inch at 200 and the best I can personally do is in the .6s at that range when it's calm out.

I bought a new Stainless Fluted Sendero in 300SAUM and it's showing promise so far.I've had it out 3 times, the first to do a break-in and the other two for load developement. It has shot a few .5s w/ 168 HPBTs. I tried two groups w/ 178 Amaxes saturday and it shot ragged holes at 100 probably .3s but, I haven't miked em' yet. The 168s shot 1" at 200 w/ one combo. I think the AMAXs will regularly break an inch at 200 once I get the load work finished, can't decide whether to stay w/ R22 or H4350, theyre both shooting good. I'll probably stay w/ the H4350 for the temp stability issues.

Nice groups from those Kimbers, I haven't had the pleasure to shoot one but, looks interesting.


Have a Good One

Reloader

1/2 MOA factory rifles do exist, and with some patience and selection of the "correct" factory gun not impossible to find.

A excellent place to get an idea of what is what on this score is visit a benchrest match and pay attention to the HUNTER class.

This class must be a factory rifle with no mods, 6x scope. Remington 700 variants ( sendro, milspec etc ) seem to be the most common rifle used in this event, Savage is coming on strong though. Other factory rifles you ocassionally see are Sako, Winchester, Tikka's. I actually think this is one of the most interesting competions at benchrest events. because of the restrictions of it must be a factory rifle.

A trip to your local match will sort out what factory rifles are capable of this accuracy level, look at whats enetered and whats winning. You guys should really start shooting five shot groups though, things change when your shooting 5 shots and using a timer.

Reloader: that list of: Sendero's, LTR's, and 700Ps are exactly the riflles that dominate the hunter class, the only other real competion are the Savage accu-trigger models similiarly configured.

I have a Remington 5R milspec that will meet that 1/2 MOA bar, I need more range time with this rifle, and its cold and crappy weather up our way this time of year and range sessions need to wait till the weather breaks. But with Federal match and Black Hills match ammo its meeting the 1/2 MOA ( 5 shot groups ) and once I get reloading sorted out on this rifle I am hoping I can trim that .1 MOA to the .4's, this is a hope right now though and unproven, but I figure I have good odds it will happen. Time on the bench and range will tell.

While I know the factories make the varmit and match rifles that are this accurate, I have my doubts about sporter class rifles and this accuracy level. THe 5 round groups, and the timer really make it difficult to achieve on a ligher barrel. Not saying impossible, and I am sure a occasional sporter rifle can perform at that level, but .625 MOA is a lot more resonable number with a lighter barrel. I know if I bought a factory sporter rifle and it was shooting that after breakin, I am more than satified, and I have zip to complain about.

Schromf, I am not sure of the hunter class rules in the NBRSA, I didn't know that they had what they call a hunter class. If you are talking about the IBS HBR you are off by quite a bit. A hunter gun must weigh no more than 10 pounds, not be glued in, have a magazine capable of holding at least 2 ctgs, limited to a 6x scope, must fire a ctg. that has a capacity of at least the capacity of a 30-30 generally concidered to be 45.5 grains of water, and can be any action that is made in any number. Just about all the custom makers are making an action that can be used in HBR.
dj, just saw your post on another forum, beautiful job on the gun that you did. Did you do the stock, checkering and all? One talented guy. I can turn a lumber yard into sawdust in a matter of hours. Really very nice.

I have a RRA Varminter 24 inch that will shoot .5 or less with regularity and my Kimber 84M in 7-08 will do it on a regular basis, but it took quite a bit of load development and is quite sensitive to trigger guard screw tension.

Steve E........