Rick, you can always be counted on for a classic come back. The group sizes that you HAD published a little embaressing.

Well, the United States penny is 0.75" in diameter. The diameter of the bullet is listed in the data below the picture.

You figure the group sizes...

Hey Bob, I still don't understand why you are determined to call everyone who posts a Bragger group a Liar.

Seems counter-productive to getting your original message across to the "new guy" you mentioned, that you thought Steve was somehow misleading.

From a bit different perspective, I would see those groups as giving the "new guy"(Beginning Reloader) a bit of a Pep Talk about the possibilities of being able to achieve small groups with good Reloading Practices.

Since you apparently have a lot of first-hand experience shooting BenchRest, there should be a lot of things you could mention that would really help the Beginners. I've got over 5 decades of Reloading, but I expect you could teach me a few new things too.

Only problem is, it is going to be difficult to learn from a guy who insists on calling anyone who is able to shoot a small group a Liar.
---

As I mentioned before, I believe everyone that is saying they shot a small group actually did so.

If all are telling the truth - so what?
If some are not telling the truth - so what?
---

What is the average group you can shoot with a Factory Rifle? Any special tricks in Developing that Load? What do you hunt with it?

H.C. You are more than likely right in what you say. I am not calling anyone else on here a lier, I realize that there are guns that will shoot 1/2 inch groups and with the smarts that a lot of these guys on here have the percent of the guns that can be made do it is probebly higher that the general popolous. It just gets me when someone claims outrageous groups. Here is a post that I put on the thread that this stems from, and I will try to put another on here by someone other than myself.
Posted 06 July 2005 22:00
I just grabbed the top copy of P.S. magazine from my bookcase and found it to contain the results of the 2003 I.B.S. nationals. As an example, with 134 shooters, the best in the country if not the world, shooting guns built by the best accuracy gunsmiths in the country, the results of the top ten at 200 yds. are from the winner at .2346 to the number 10 place at .2835. Now go ahead and tell the new kids that are looking to you for advice, that you have a number of stock Rugers that will shoot .2600 anytime you do not pull a shot. Better yet, offer to show a few of them how it is done.
Look at the figures and think about it, promise this is the last I will post on the matter.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
...Look at the figures and think about it, promise this is the last I will post on the matter.

Hey Bob, Darn shame to see that. I was hoping to pick up some "Tips" from you.

I do understand what you are saying about the cumulative groups, under the stress of competition, but I'm repeating myself when I say you are comparing totally different things. Both are Group Measurements, but they are not shot under the same conditions at all.
---

Since you didn't answer my questions about "your" Factory Rifles, I'll just take it that all your rifles are BenchRest-ers. Nothing wrong with that. I do enjoy punching paper myself, especially when I have my concentration and focus at a peak.

I've got a buddy who bought a 308Win "Tooley Rifle" from one of his buddies 5-6 years ago. It only had a few rounds through it at the time and I've been trying to pull a swap with him ever since. It is a bit heavier than I'd prefer to hunt with, though I feel sure it would do that just fine afield.

I sure would like to know how well it would shoot with me doing the Trigger Yanking. And you would know the Tooley has the potential to go into a BenchRest Match and do right well. I just don't need the "stress" associated with that anymore.

I still enjoy shooting to see who buys the BBQ for supper, but that is more for fun than adding stress to my life - don't need it.

Best of luck to you.

Have a few that will do it every once in awhile,but not day after day or group after group,Think the main reason is that I can not do it.I usually shoot at the range at least once a week depending on the weather.Think there is more rifles that can do it today under the right circumstances than there are shooters that can do it.
I don't shoot anything but factory rifles because I don't own any custom rifles.I get my fun from shooting factory rifles just pleasureing myself,and if I get a good group once in awhile I am more than tickled.I have shot some custom rifles and they shot great,haven't ever shot a bench rest rifle but would love to shoot one just to see how I could do with it.
Don't shoot any competion because I would hate finishing in last place all the time.
Can show though shooting a factory rifle a hog can find an acron once in awhile.

Dang Owensby, That's quite impressive.

Did you find the 10fp finicky or was it pretty easy to load for?

Most of the folks I've heard talking about their Savage Varmint rigs say they will just plain shoot. I've thought of buying one just for some inexpensive paper punching at the range.

Have you tried the cheap bulk ammo in it?

Thanks,

Reloader

I can shoot .330, 100 yard groups with my Encore, 204 Ruger!

H.C. I am sorry that I did not answer the question on my factory guns. I have 3, a 30-30 94 trapper, and 2 .270s a Rem and a Win. I'll be honest and tell you that I have never really shot either for group size. When I was hunting I would shoot a couple of shots to make sure that the scope was still on and that was it. I disagree with you on the aspect of group shooting in a match or for fun. A B.R. match normally has everything going for it. The benches are normally concrete, The range set up for matches and all else conducive to shoot good groups. There is no pressure that I have seen in a match.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
There is no pressure that I have seen in a match.

You must be made of sterner stuff than I. I compete in several different shooting disciplines and it is allways different when shooting for score vs. off the bench or practicing. Some guys shoot better in practice and some shoot better when it's for real but it's allways different for me and most people I've ever shot or competed with............DJ

Okay, without stepping on anyone's toes too hard, let me get this straight.

We have someone who owns a Winchester 94 and a couple of bolt rifles in .270 Winchester.

By his own admission he has never shot competition, and has never "shot for group size".

And, if I understand his statement of, "When I was hunting...", he is no longer even an active hunter.

Yet, he has tried to convince us that we (or at least me) are FOS...

Am I missing something here?

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
H.C. I am sorry that I did not answer the question on my factory guns. I have 3, a 30-30 94 trapper, and 2 .270s a Rem and a Win. I'll be honest and tell you that I have never really shot either for group size. When I was hunting I would shoot a couple of shots to make sure that the scope was still on and that was it. I disagree with you on the aspect of group shooting in a match or for fun. A B.R. match normally has everything going for it. The benches are normally concrete, The range set up for matches and all else conducive to shoot good groups. There is no pressure that I have seen in a match.

Well I've personally witnessed my dad shoot plenty of groups that literally looked like one bullet hole. Oh yeah and these were with bone stock Mod 700 factory rifles with nothing but the trigger adjusted.

Rick, I own 3 Stolle Kodiaks, 2 Stolle Pandas, 2 Stolle Teddys, a Nasika J, and my first bench gun a Rem. 40X in 30BR. The Kodiaks are in 30X47, 30 BR and a ctg that I made up myself out of a .300 Rem ultra. The Pandas are in 30BR and 6 PPC, The Teddys are both only ! barrel each in 6 PPC. I said ,in essence, that I do not hunt any more and I do not, I did for years and have just quit. I have also been shooting score B.R. for quite a few years and shoot a lot of groups in tuning a gun. Where you got the idea that I said that I have not shot compatition, I do not know. I am 67 plus years old and no longer care to hunt, but have guided bear hunts in Maine and have probebly spent as much time in the woods as the average guy on here. I am admittedly computed stupis, but will try and post a group that I shot last week, the second group shot out of a barrel that I just chambered in 30BR. I have never done this before so be patient.[IMG:left]C:\Documents and Settings\Munghi\Desktop\bob 044[/IMG]

Nice collection...is Kelbly still in business?

And I stand corrected about the statement that oyu have never shot competition.

Sure is and going strong, last Kodiak I got took 3 months. Going to have to wait, I can;t get a pic. on here.

At the risk of being labeled as FOS, I have a couple rifles that will shoot a half inch or darn close to it. A CZ-527 American in .223, a Savage 110 (yes the old long action) "4x4" with 20-inch heavy barrel in .223, a MRC 1999 with a 21-inch #4 contour barrel in .358 Win and a Tikka in .338 Win Mag. Not every time and usually with just one load they like, but frequently.

Finally got someone to put a pic. up for me. .069 group. And admittedly I do not shoot them very often. Just thought it was nice that it was the second group shot and with an unlikely load of H322. Calif. there is a big difference between a half inch and some of the groups that have been posted here. I realize that there are some 1/2 in. shooters out there. All I said was that 1 in. shooter in a factory gun was a lot more common than a 1/2 in. shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
Rick, I own 3 Stolle Kodiaks, 2 Stolle Pandas, 2 Stolle Teddys, a Nasika J, and my first bench gun a Rem. 40X in 30BR. The Kodiaks are in 30X47, 30 BR and a ctg that I made up myself out of a .300 Rem ultra. The Pandas are in 30BR and 6 PPC, The Teddys are both only ! barrel each in 6 PPC. I said ,in essence, that I do not hunt any more and I do not, I did for years and have just quit. I have also been shooting score B.R. for quite a few years and shoot a lot of groups in tuning a gun. Where you got the idea that I said that I have not shot compatition, I do not know. I am 67 plus years old and no longer care to hunt, but have guided bear hunts in Maine and have probebly spent as much time in the woods as the average guy on here. I am admittedly computed stupis, but will try and post a group that I shot last week, the second group shot out of a barrel that I just chambered in 30BR. I have never done this before so be patient.[IMG:left]C:\Documents and Settings\Munghi\Desktop\bob 044[/IMG]

You dont think that that can be done with a bone stock factory rifle?
Although it is a nice group. What was the distance and how many shots?

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
... I have 3, a 30-30 94 trapper, and 2 .270s a Rem and a Win. I'll be honest and tell you that I have never really shot either for group size. ...

Hey Bob, Nice group of factory rifles as well as the BR rifles you mentioned.

Sometime when you get a chance, take the 270Win M700, some fully Prepped weight sorted cases, BR Primers, some MatchKings Seated just into the lands and the Powder you normally use. Then do a Load Development using the never improved upon Creighton Audette Method at 300-400yds.

When you find the Harmonic Clusters, reshoot a 3-shot groups each side of and directly on the harmonic. Use a good scope and you might be pleasantly surprised at just how well a Factory Rifle can shoot.

It won't shoot a group like you showed us with the BR rifle, but you should be able to do right well with it.
---

I really don't understand why shooting in competition doesn't increase your "stress". I compliment your "concentration and focus" on the task at hand.

Reloader,The 223 savage when I first got it the barrel would drop down in the stock but it still shot some good groups.I asked a gun smith if I could do a tempery fix and just put a steel washer on top of the pillars and he said it wouldn't work,but I tried it anyway and it did very nicely,I later had a friend to bed it and it has shot good since.About every time I take it to the range someone wants to buy it,it is the closest thing I have to a bench rest rifle so I will just keep it.The only thing I don't really like about it is the accu-trigger,it takes me awhile to get used to it every time I shoot it,If all my rifles had the accru-trigger on them I would probably like it.It shot the factory Win varmit bullet that wal-mart sells in a 40 pack very good but it didn't like the Win 55 FMJ in the 40 pack as well.
The 260 is a rem Bdl and has only had the trigger adjusted,Took a deer with it this past year at 442 yds.
The 22/250 is one of the new rem sps,haven't found the right load for it yet,wanting to shoot a 55 gr bullet in it.Has had trigger adjusted in it.
Below is how my rem classic 243 shoots get lucky with it once in awhile.The bottom pic is with a muzzleloader at 300 yds,its only a 2 shot group,but does anyone know how much luck it takes to put 2 bullets in the same hole,inside a 2 inch circle at 300 yds with a muzzleloader??

5 shots .............100 yards
Hot, its all in fun, when I start getting up tight about weather I win or not I'll quit shooting. The only man that I have ever seen that got like that was a guy in Maine that got so up tight that he could not pull the trigger with the fear of not being in the x ring. He was an excellant shooter and won a great deal more than his share. All my guns other than two are in Maine, but I think that when I get home I will give that a try. I would have to spend a week or so cleaning the two .270s as I can't remember when the last time that I did that. Thats a sin as I clean my bench guns after every 15 shots or so, and clean them well. I certainly do not mean to blow smoke, but that group really surprised me as it was a barrel that I had just put on that gun, and had maybe 10 shots down it. The first group that I have saved in years.
Owensby, what the hell are you using for a target?

Geesh, I got three groups bigger than that on one target!



I can't even shoot that good at 50 yards with my CB Shorts!



And my .250-3000 shoots fer crap with a clean barrel. Then it gets better.



Nice shootin' Bob!

DIGITAL, YOU GOT MORE NERVE JUST SHOOTING THAT THING 3 TIMES, THE 416 i MEAN. wHERE IS YANKEETOWN. Please excuse caps as the lock was on.

Thats a home made target ,made from packing tape,paint and card board.It works as good as those shoot and see targets.Have to give these old eyes all the help I can.
A shooting buddy came up with the idea,works great.

Oh Bob, you can't imagine how glad I am that you asked that question. Lemme give you a little taste of Florida(the Windy State) Geography.

Yankeetown is co-joined with Crackertown and Inglis. About 11 miles south of Lebanon Station, OR about 6 miles north of Red Level. 24 miles south of Otter Creek...does any of that help? Okay, 15 miles west of Chatmire? Chatmire's about 35 miles south of Reddick BTW, in case you've ever been there. You know where Two Egg is? We're southeast of there a fair bit, but you can rest over in Cedar Key if you need to.

Okay, where was I? Oh yeah, Yankeetown. It's where Elvis filmed "Follow That Dream", so yes, there was an Elvis sighting here back in '61. 'Bout 10 miles north of Crystal River...we got us one of those genuine nook-lear power plants* too, so don't be thinkin' we're a bunch of crosseyed hillbillies. No sir, there are no mountains around here!

It's on the Gulf Coast, about 95 miles north of Tampa...and if you don't know where Tampa is I'm gonna have some real fun with ya....

Dan


*No, our fish don't glow in the dark.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
H.C. You are more than likely right in what you say. I am not calling anyone else on here a lier, I realize that there are guns that will shoot 1/2 inch groups and with the smarts that a lot of these guys on here have the percent of the guns that can be made do it is probebly higher that the general popolous. It just gets me when someone claims outrageous groups. Here is a post that I put on the thread that this stems from, and I will try to put another on here by someone other than myself.
Posted 06 July 2005 22:00
I just grabbed the top copy of P.S. magazine from my bookcase and found it to contain the results of the 2003 I.B.S. nationals. As an example, with 134 shooters, the best in the country if not the world, shooting guns built by the best accuracy gunsmiths in the country, the results of the top ten at 200 yds. are from the winner at .2346 to the number 10 place at .2835. Now go ahead and tell the new kids that are looking to you for advice, that you have a number of stock Rugers that will shoot .2600 anytime you do not pull a shot. Better yet, offer to show a few of them how it is done.
Look at the figures and think about it, promise this is the last I will post on the matter.

I was looking forward to your promise "this is the last I will post on the matter" Seems like you've disappointed many of us again. Oh well!!!

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
I just grabbed the top copy of P.S. magazine from my bookcase and found it to contain the results of the 2003 I.B.S. nationals. As an example, with 134 shooters, the best in the country if not the world, shooting guns built by the best accuracy gunsmiths in the country, the results of the top ten at 200 yds. are from the winner at .2346 to the number 10 place at .2835. Now go ahead and tell the new kids that are looking to you for advice, that you have a number of stock Rugers that will shoot .2600 anytime you do not pull a shot.
Look at the figures and think about it,

The thing that quoting these figures is completely missing is that there is an enormous difference between a 3shot group a 100yds and a 10shot group at 200yds!
When I say that X rifle shot a group at whichever range I try and be specific about whether it was a 3 shot or 5 shot group. If I ever get a hunting rifle that shoots a 1/4" group at 200yds for 10 shots be sure that I'll be bragging everywhere about it!................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
5 shots .............100 yards
Hot, its all in fun, when I start getting up tight about weather I win or not I'll quit shooting.

Hey Bob, Had a Master Gunny "explain" to me how we were not representing ourselves, but the CORPS when shooting, in no uncertain terms. When he shot it was like watching a very precise robot.

The "typically" light weight barrels on our Factory Rifles seem to do a bit better with 3-shot groups. When hunting if you still haven't connected after the second shot though, I'd think it is time to stop and go see where the problem lies. So, 5-shots just aren't needed.

Nothing wrong with 5-shot groups, if that is what you want though. There are times when I'm checking one particular thing against another and I might have 16-20 shots in a single group. For example, I like a bunch of shots on the Target when comparing Partial-Full Length Resizing to Neck Sizing every 5 years or so. That seems to nullify the Random Shot Dispersion within a normal Group for me.

quote:

..All my guns other than two are in Maine, but I think that when I get home I will give that a try. I would have to spend a week or so cleaning the two .270s as I can't remember when the last time that I did that. Thats a sin as I clean my bench guns after every 15 shots or so, and clean them well.

That is a bit difficult for me to imagine - leaving a barrel dirty. I clean mine every 6-9 shots when at the Range, not to impress anyone but to have the barrel closer to the pristine clean condition they are in when I'm Hunting.

quote:

I certainly do not mean to blow smoke, but that group really surprised me as it was a barrel that I had just put on that gun, and had maybe 10 shots down it. The first group that I have saved in years....

It was nice to see that no one with any sense challenged you on the group.

I can easily think of two new factory rifles I had that I knew were pulling a clinton on me when I looked at their first groups. The groups were smaller than I know I'm capable of shooting today and consider what they did just Random Group Dispersion and coincidence. They both settled into nice shooting rifles, but just don't shoot the same groups they did the first two times they went to the Range.

One I seriously expected to shoot real well, because I bought it just to work over a buddy. He had a M700 Sendero and a M70 BOSS equipped rifle that would "occasionally" beat me. Not all the time but often enough to be irritating in a fun way. So I looked around and found a Blue and Laminated 308Win M700VLS, put a 6.5-20x VariX-III on it and loaded up some 168gr matchKings. That totally eliminated the occasional getting whupped problem.

A bigger shock was a S&S 223Rem M7 that I swapped my last 22Hornet for. I'd found some 50gr B-Tips at a Gun Show for a good price and loaded some of them up to try in it. Put a 4-12x Leupold on it and it surprised me more than any factory rifle I've ever shot, just amazingly accurate. I first thought it might be missing the Target entirely with shots following the initial one, but it was just shooting really well. I use it with those same bullets for my BBQ Loads.
---

I've not been to see DD, but I believe it would be rather easy to find him. Just look for the place in Florida with the most "kitty cats". I've heard he is real fond of them.

To get the trhread back on track of STOCK rifles that shoot .5 MOA. My heym SR20 in 30-06 is a real shooter. I have another group at home shot with SSTs that will beat this one.

Don't have a dog in this fight,but i can tell some of you shooters need to learn how to measure your groups a bit more accurate,not that it really makes much difference,as not in a match,but think some of your groups are going to be bigger than you think.

GROUP SIZE ANALYSIS METHODS

(Maximum Spread)
The Maximum Spread (also called group diameter or extreme spread) is simply the distance between the centers of the two most widely dispersed shots in a group. This is the most common method used to describe group size because it is the easiest measurement to take. Unfortunately it only considers two shots in the result so an otherwise tight group of 10 shots with one "flyer" can produce results similar to a widely dispersed two shot group. For bench rest shooters who are capable of putting five shots in one hole it is a valid measure; but for the rest of us, or for handgun shooting it does not provide a "statistically significant" number for comparing targets.


(String Measurement)
This is an old method still used to determine a shooter's skill at hitting a target. It assumes the point of aim is always the desired point of impact and is simply the sum of the distances from the point of aim to each bullet hole. Originally a string was used to gather the distances, hence the name. It is still a valid measure of total error relative to the aim point. String Measurements however cannot be used to analyze sight settings because it only measures the magnitude of error, not the direction of error. It is also not a useful measure of group size because a tight group located away from the Bullseye will produce a large String Measurement.


(Average Group Radius)
The average of the distances from the statistical group center (not the aim point) to each shot is the Average Group Radius. It accurately reflects how far a typical shot will impact from the aim point with a well sighted arm. This measure is the best indicator of group size or firearm performance because flyers have less impact on the result so it provides a "statistically significant" number for comparing a series of targets or groups. Unfortunately it is difficult to calculate manually. Unlike a String Measurement, the Average Group Radius does not assume the point of aim is the desired impact point, so sighting error is not a factor in the result. Average Group Radius can therefore be used to compare group sizes when the impact point is intentionally high (rifle sighted for maximum point blank range and shooting dead center). It is also the best measure for evaluating the overall accuracy of loads. Magazine articles using Average Group Radius indicate the writer has taken care to provide readers with statistically significant data, but you should be careful not to compare it to the more common Maximum Spread.


ERROR ANALYSIS METHODS

(Vertical and Horizontal Spread)
The Horizontal and Vertical Spread of a group is simply the greatest distance between shots on the vertical or horizontal plane. This contrasts with the Maximum Spread which can be at any angle across the group. This measurement is understood by most shooters, easy to make, and can be used to help detect load and mechanical problems or "pulling" by the shooter. If the Vertical or Horizontal Spread is significantly larger and shots are well dispersed, it is called "stringing". A cross wind will obviously disperse shots horizontally. Vertical stringing may be caused by irregular powder charges and detonation problems (inconsistent ignition due to variations in primer pocket depth or primer thickness). Improper crimping, bullet inconsistencies or other loading problems usually result in larger overall group sizes, and not "stringing" in any particular direction. A loose gun sight, or broken scope may also cause stringing.

(Average Vertical and Horizontal Error)
The Average Horizontal and Vertical Error is the average of errors on the Vertical and Horizontal plane from the group's statistical center. This is a much better measure for detecting errors than Vert./Hor. Spread because the shot data is averaged to reduce the influence of "flyers". If the goal is to track "pulling" by the shooter over time or to isolate problems, then the Average Vertical & Horizontal Error is a better measurement for comparing a series of targets.

(Maximum Shot Radius)
The Maximum Shot Radius (or maximum group radius) is the distance from a group's statistical center to the center of the most distant hole. It really only indicates how far from the group center the worst shot should fall and is not a good indicator of overall performance. On a target where shots are evenly dispersed, this measurement will be about 1/2 the Maximum Spread and larger than the Average Group Radius. It is best used to quantify the worst shot in a series of targets.

(Maximum Shot Radius Compared To Average Group Radius)
The Maximum Shot Radius should be only slightly larger than the Average Group Radius. A big difference between these measures is another indication of shooter error or a bad load.

(Average Elevation and Windage Error)
The Average Elevation and Windage Errors compare a group's statistical center to the point of aim. It accurately indicates where the group center is located (or average shot impacted) with a set of vertical and horizontal dimensions. The two measurements show how well the firearm is sighted to hit the Bullseye and can be used to adjust sights if the results are converted to Minutes of Angle.


As for me? I just measure the two most outside edges and subtract the bullet diameter.

Rick, I have to admit you are certainly into this a hell of a lot deeper than I am. I concede to your knowledge of reloading and balistics. Anything other than one of the ctgs. that I shoot is normally a complete mystery to me. I do know a .270 load that I like as it is a ctg. that I hunted wiyh when I was hunting, 60 grs. of 4831 and a 130 gr. nosler patition. You must spend a good portion of your life workinh on that stuff.

quote:

You must spend a good portion of your life workinh on that stuff.

Only the past 44 years...before that I was interested in cars and wimmen...

The next time I get out and shoot with my dad I will come back to this thread. I will show some of you naysayers what a factory rifle with good handloads and a capable shooter can do.

The fact is most remington factory rifles are capable of groups with all shots touching and several will shoot one holers with a capable shooter.

Another fact is and problem with a lot of the naysayers is that not many of them are capable of shooting that good. So they blame the rifle and then call anyone who claims to shoot such as liars.
I'll even go one step further. I will let you come witness it for yourself if you want to.


Although I will probably have to get someone to post the pictures for me.

Reloader: I am not happy with a factory Rifle unless it shows a propensity to shoot groups under .750". Let me also state my parameters for my shooting groups.
All my groups are shot at 100 yards.
All my groups are 5 (five) shot groups.
I never shoot in poor light anymore and haven't for many years.
I never shoot in moving wind conditions anymore and haven't for many years.
I use only absolutely carefully constructed handloads with top quality Hunting and Varmint type bullets.
I weigh the powder of each and every handload I make.
I carefully mount my own scopes paying absolute attention to lapping my rings, bore sighting the rings before mounting the scope and centering the scope before mounting it.
I do not any longer use factory type 5 pound plus triggers!
I use a top quality benchrest with stock stop for consistent shot to shot hold.
I shoot extremely slowly and only when my heart beat is as slow and "light" as it will get!
I only use Federal Bench Rest primers.
I prefer scopes of higher powers like 20, 24 and 25 powers!
Etc., etc., etc!
My factory Rifles shoot well or I simply sell them to folks like B. beyer's who apparently expect and settle for less!
I have not had to sell a Remington 40X, 700 or XR-100 in the last two decades - at least due to lack of accuracy!
Equally as well, I have not had to sell a Sako or a Ruger recently either.
My latest factory Rifle is a Remington XP-100 in 223 Remington. This factory stock Rifle shot the first bullet I tested into 5 shot groups at 100 yards measuring .121" and .326"!
I would not keep a factory Varmint Rifle unless it showed a distinct propensity to shoot groups like I defined in the 5's! Again I would sell them to B. beyers and his ilk!
In the last 20 years I have bought - I am estimating 150 Rifles. Some were for trade and some were for my collection but most were for Big Game Hunting and Varmint Hunting. The many dozens I bought for Hunting during the last 20 years all have shot pretty well! Many shot groups on occassion measuring .250" and better!
I could give a rats rear end if B. beyers or any of his ilk say it can't be done.
I do it fairly often!
I don't have room on my loading components locker for all my one hole targets and in decades past I used to only tape up my very "best" targets (groups). As of about 15 years ago I took all of those best groups down and only tape up my groups with a single flier in them! I call these targets "famous fliers I have shot"! The reason I do this is to self flagelate (whip) myself! And in continuum the reason I do this is because not every group I shoot with my factory Rifles is a "screamer" or even a great group - my worst fliers are prominently posted for my own benefit (reminder) to use ABSOLUTELY the same sight alignment, trigger squeeze and Rifle hold on each shot at the range - in perfect conditions.
Thats right - I do not test handloads or shoot for group in anything less than near perfect conditions.
Once I get a Rifle showing continued accuracy with a particular handload I quit banging away with it at the range. I use my Rifles then predominantly after that for Big Game and Varmint Hunting.
I have quite a number of factory Rifles right now that have or will shoot groups (like I have defined above) at or under .500".
Neighbor coming up the drive - more later.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Neighbors gone - if I may continue. I am going to go through my loading/shooting log and list the last and then the best group that many of my factory Rifles have shot.
Parameters again: all are factory stock Rifles, all are 5 shot groups, many have had trigger jobs done, all were bought in the last 20 years (except the Sako L-46's), and most were purchased in the last 5 years or so.

Ruger 77/17 V/T in 17 HMR = .646" (last group) & .502" (best group)

Remington 700 VSS (limited run all stainless varminter with 26" heavy barrel) in 17 Remington = .469" and .413"

Remington 700 Classic in 17 Remington (12x scope) = .596" and .562"

Remington 700 VLS in 204 Ruger = .480" and .398"

Ruger 77 V/T in 204 Ruger = .595" and .374"

Remington XR-100 in 204 Ruger = .402" and .322"

Kimber M-22 Hunter/Silohuette in 22 LR = .779"
(last AND best 100 yard, 5 shot group, CCI Mini-Mag HP's!)

Ruger #1-B in 22 Hornet = .1.067" and .712"

Ruger #1-B in 218 Bee = .808" and .585"

Kimber Ultra-Varmint in 221 Remington Fireball (12x scope) = .424" and .285"

Remington 700 Classic in 221 Remington Fireball
(12x scope) = .882" and .435"

Remington 700 Classic in 222 Remington (16x scope) = .558" and .524"

Remington 700 Classic in 222 Remington (10x scope) = .614" and .482"

Remington 40XB-BR in 222 Remington = .361" and .178"

Remington 700 V in 222 Remington = .460" and .218"

Sako L-46 in 222 Remington .581" and .401" (8x scope!)

Remington 700 PSS in 223 Remington .362" and .219" (this is one of the most accurate factory Rifles I have ever owned or shot!)

Remington 700 Classic in 223 Remington (12x scope) = .659" and .251"

Remington 700 VLSS (limited run edition) in 223 Remington (with 12x scope) = .630" and .501"

Remington XR-100 in 223 Remington = .326" and .121"

Sako L-46 in 222 Remington Magnum = .470" and .344"

Weatherby MarkV in 224 Weatherby Magnum = .710" and .481"

Remington 40XB-BR in 22 Remington Bench Rest = .318" and .314"

Remington 40XBBR-KS in 22 Remington Bench Rest = .431" and .307"

Remington 700 VLS in 22-250 Remington = . 542" and .503" (new Rifle still doing load development)

Remington 700 VLSS (limited edition) in 22-250 Remington = .448" and .271"

Remington 40X in 22-250 Remington = .484" and .182"

Remington 700 VS in 220 Swift (16x scope) = .576" amd .430"

Remington 40XB-KS in 220 Swift = .451" and .402"

Remington 700 VSSF in 220 Swift = .602" and .399"

Ruger M-77V in 220 Swift = .680" and .471"

Remington 40XBBR-KS in 6x47 (all stock factory Rifle) = .393" and .245"

Sako single shot bolt action factory Rifle in caliber 6mm PPC = .226" and .212"

Remington 40X in caliber 243 Winchester = .470" and .356"

Ruger #1-B in 6mm Remington = .906" and .460"

Remington 700 VLS in 260 Remington = .544" and .451"

Remington 700 Sendero in 270 Winchester = .611" and .541"

Remington 700 Classic in 7mm Remington Magnum = (3 shot groups only) .522" and .510"

Long live affordable and accurate factory Rifles!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hey VG, Those sure are some excellent Groups. Speaks well for the Rifles, your Handloading and your shooting.

Not trying to crank up an argument when I ask, where are the Winchester groups? Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you had a bunch of them too.

Just had my new Tikka T3 out to the range today (22-250), after about 15 round of break in shooting and cleaning. Fired one three round group of 0.44†@ 100 yds. with Winchester 45g factory ammo. I know that one group doesn’t tell the whole story, but it’s a promising start.

Is it possible that factory ammo is more consistent today?

quote:

Originally posted by A/C guy:
...Is it possible that factory ammo is more consistent today?

Hey A/C guy, No doubt about it.

Back when I started shooting(as well as Steve, Bob and the older folks), finding a Factory Rifle that would shoot "consistent" 1.5" groups was something to be very proud of.

You can see folks whinning and crying about current rifle Quality all the time. And in some specific situations they are totally correct. But from an overall view, we are getting some of the most accurate Factory Rifles ever built today.

Same for the components and your Factory Ammo as well.

One of the very best things people can do for their "older" firearms is to use current production Components in them. Even some of those old 1.5" rifles become 1"(or better) shooters with the current Powders and Bullets.

By the way, nice shooting.

HC, absolutely correct.

I think everyone should go to at least one bench rest match. When you see the amount of crap they haul to the firing line (they use little fork lifts, ) and the two way radios to communicate with their flag stickers and, of course, the single purpose bench guns that are made by elves under a hollow log and so forth, the amazing thing is why don't they all shoot .0001 groups. What you will find is there are many more hackers that can talk the talk but can't walk the walk than real shooters. But, since they have spent all that money and are "bench resters", they are permitted to make snotty remarks about us ordinary folks that have lives. And, of course, quote stats from the top 10 shooters in America, who, by the way, are professionals.
But the really kewl thing about going to a bench rest match is when they post the targets. You will hear some of the most professional grade whinning and complaining ever. Even worse than the Florida democrats when their man lost.
Oh, by the way, this is all in fun.