I currently have 3 CF rifles and 2 of them have shot below .5" Would I call them .5" rifles? No, because their average group is more like .8-.9 for 3-shot groups. The other, a M70 FW in .22-250 shoots .8 to 1.0 all the time. I shot the smallest group I've ever shot with one of them--a .112" 3-shot group with a 70s-vintage Ruger M77 in .25-06 with a Leupold 3X9, bedded, and Timney trigger. Took my 7Mag to the range before the season opened this year to verify zero, and the first 3 shots were .38" with the point of impact right where it was when I put it to bed 2 years ago. It wears a Leupold 3X9, it is unbedded, and has a factory trigger.

So--no I don't have any factory rifles that I would bet the farm on them shooting a .5" group, not even with one of our world-class benchrest shooters on the trigger. But, as far as killing hogs, deer, etc. they get the job done just fine. But, I have no explanation why I missed a hog at 150 yds and a coyote at 255 yesterday.

Bob, He may be talking about the Hunter class as the same as one of our local clubs calls a "Factory Class" which intails of any barreled action built in the factory. Any stocks, triggers, bedding jobs, etc. you want are allowed as long as the barreled action is Factory.

Reloader

I don't know how common it is, but I bought a Savage heavy barrel 10 FP in .308, put a $175 Swift mil-dot on it and with 175 SMK and Varget it will consistantly shoot .4" groups all day long with front and rear rest as long as I shoot slow and allow a little time for the barrel to cool between groups. It consistantly shoots .6" 5 shot groups all day long. If I shoulder the rifle with the front on a rest those groups open up a bit. The rifle is capable of shooting these groups consistantly, but I am not without help.

I have seen many rifles that appeared to be factory turn out groups like this at the range. I don't think it is uncommon for a factory rifle to be capable of this. I do however think that it is more uncommon for a shooter to be capable of this. Even shooting with front and rear supported your technique and mechanics can affect the groups. Out of all my rifles, this is the only one I have even tried to gain this type of accuracy out of so I can honestly say that it is the only one I know of that is capable of it. My other rifles are used exclusively for hunting so when I develop a load that is consistantly 1" at 100 yards I call it good. I hunt in the sout east in heavy woods so it is rare when I even get a 100 yard shot.

I am still crying about the 788 in 22-250 I sold. It was the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. I got this thing 2nd hand for 65 bucks, put on a tasco 3x9 scope, weaver mounts and it would shoot the cheap herter bullets (back then 2 dollars a box) .2 to .3 @ 100 yds. Lord, I still can't believe I did that!!! Bill439

The one that I have that will sometimes get under .5" in a factory setup is a Rem 700 VSSF in a 22-250. Most of the time when it doesn't it's because of my limitions as a shooter

As was stated on this thread a while back, I would love to see all these guys that claim to have the .2 .3 .4 shooting guns get together and see just how they do it. Not pointing fingers at anyone special but I have been fooling with accuracy minded rifles too long to believe all these stories. This is like the idea of the monkey and typewriter, sooner of later he will type something intellagent. Given enough time one could shoot a .5 in. group with a slingshot. I come to fl. in the winter as much to shoot as anything else, needless to say I am out at the range 3 or 4 times a week and have seen too many guns to believe all the stories on here. I have shown .5 in groups to guys that insisted it was a .1 or.2 no idea of what a 1/2 incher looks like. Just my opinion, I really do not mean to step on toes.

Only one I've got that can consistently shoot 1/2 MOA is a Savage 12BVSS in .22-250.

My bread-and-butter-rifle is a Sauer 90 in .308 w/ a nice Zeiss scope, > 20 years in service. If the shooter is in good shape, it shoots consistently .5" groups w/ handloaded ammo (SMK 168 grs in front of 42,2 grs of Varget). Maybe coincidence, but last Saturday I celebrated Shamrock day with some nice clover leaves out of my RC 98k.

I think the better question is how many of us are consistant .5" shooters. I'm not. I don't have the patience to build a new shooting bench, (some genius pulled it out of the ground), and I'm happy pullin' good groups "redneck style" ,as it has been put, while my boys are burning up the .22's.

My comment earlier was a little brash just because I get tired of hearing that factory rifles don't shoot, or brand X will never be worth owning! I have three big game rifles that at this point are more consistant at cloverleaf groups than my .22-250. Mostly because I havn't have it all that long yet and have yet to find a happy load for it.

I think lots of people get to caught up in group size, especially when making recommendations to younger or newer shooters.
On the other hand it's fun to have a basically stock rifle in a big game caliber that will print groups that make some "varmint" rifles look bad.
When I'm on, well...I'm on! If I don't shoot a tiny group that day doesn't mean the rifle isn't capable. I think too many people blame the rifle or bullet for thier poor marksmanship. Nate

I think b beyer is mainly right, I think alot of guys shoot one .5" group and call there gun a half inch gun and the group was probably closer to an inch to start with. That being said it used to be an incrediable shooter if it shot 1 inch. But that was then, now people expect more from factory guns and I think that 1 inch guns are more "normal" now than they used to be. I do have a .5" gun and yes I do measure and it does it on a consistant basis. Today in fact I was on my way to printing a 3/8's group with it at 4 shots and the fifth was a flyer and made it an even 1/2" 5 shot group. It is a CZ 527 Varmint in 17 Remington with the factory barrel.

Winchester 70 in 300 WSM
SSG-69 in 308 Win
Winchester 70 Coyote in 22-250
Marlin 1895G in 45-70

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
dj, just saw your post on another forum, beautiful job on the gun that you did. Did you do the stock, checkering and all? One talented guy. I can turn a lumber yard into sawdust in a matter of hours. Really very nice.

B Beyer, I did the stock from a pantographed blank to finish. It's not a factory rifle but here is the 1st 3 shot group I shot with it after I finished restocking it:



And since you say you don't believe some of the stories here you might note that this one was witnessed and signed by 2 other shooters... ................DJ

Reloader,

Yes its the factory class I was refering to.

As to above comment on what makes a 1/2 MOA rifle. My defination:

sit down with 20 rounds of ammo, and a qaud target. Start on the upper left target and one shot at a time click and shoot clockwise for five complete clock circles ( 5 rounds in 4 targets). Measure your group numbers, add them up then divide by 4, if thats .5" or under its a 1/2 MOA rifle. Assuming 100 yard range.

I see very few rifles that run that gambit, and frankly I don't even try on most of my rifles I know they aren't going to cut the grade. If you want a humbling experience try shooting the "box", both you and your scope and your rifle better be up to snuff. I spent several days on the range last summer trying to run a good box, shooting 20 shots in row for groups like these is damn tough. It takes about 2 flyers to mess that sting up for score. I have been toying with a 16x-20X scope for this though my 12x could a little more precise. Like I said I am working on that perfect string, maybe this summer I'll pull it off. One thing I found last summer is get 14 or 15 rounds into the box routine and then donl up, I got up to 18 last year before throwing a flyer, its a lot more difficult than it sounds.

Everyone seems to make up a different definition for a 1/2 minute rifle. These definitions usually have a lot more to do with their personal prejudices on whether such things exist or not. On guy says 3 shots, the next 5 or 10 and now we have one that involves more about scope tracking than the actual rifle. Geez........

All I try to say is that this rifle put this many holes in this target at this range on that day. If it does it pretty often I might mention that. I think that too many "definitions" is confusing and mostly meaningless...........DJ

quote:

I think that too many "definitions" is confusing and mostly meaningless...........

I agree everybodies definition differs. In my book three round groups are condenders. In someone elses opinion its a 1/2 MOA rifle. Whole lot of ground in between those two extremes.

OBTW: My definition is pretty consistant what the Marine and Army sniper units consider a 1/2 MOA rifle.

To me the rifle is a package and the sights are part of it, a scope that doesn't track and return to zero, means that package doesn't consistanly shoot 1/2 MOA.

And yes it takes a while to get a "package" put together that is that consistant. I have lots of rifles, I have one serious contender for that getting that package together, one thing for sure is you spend more time paying attention to the scope and rings when you start working on it.

Yes accuracy discussions get tedious.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:

Yes accuracy discussions get tedious.

...agreed....... ......DJ

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
As was stated on this thread a while back, I would love to see all these guys that claim to have the .2 .3 .4 shooting guns get together and see just how they do it. Not pointing fingers at anyone special but I have been fooling with accuracy minded rifles too long to believe all these stories. This is like the idea of the monkey and typewriter, sooner of later he will type something intellagent. Given enough time one could shoot a .5 in. group with a slingshot. I come to fl. in the winter as much to shoot as anything else, needless to say I am out at the range 3 or 4 times a week and have seen too many guns to believe all the stories on here. I have shown .5 in groups to guys that insisted it was a .1 or.2 no idea of what a 1/2 incher looks like. Just my opinion, I really do not mean to step on toes.

Maybe you need to work on your reloading and shooting technique !!! I've been shooting for about 35 years and have only had 1 bolt gun that WOULDN'T shoot 1/2" or less. I'm talking 3 shot groups, off a solid bench, with a good adjustable rest with handloads. I currently own a Savage 116 FSAK in .300 Ultra. Early stages of load developement (under 50 rounds).5-.6 MOA. Savage .270 WSM 140 Accubonds at 3200 fps. This rifle shoots in the .2s !!!! Factory stock with a trigger adjustment only. RRA 18" barreled Varminter .4-.5 MOA. Browning A-Bolt .338 Mag. First load I threw together shot under .7 MOA so quit there. An elk is much larger than that and further fine tuning was not considered neccesary .I had a Rem 700 ADL on a Bell and Carlson stock in .270 Winchester. That one also shot in the .2's. I had a Ruger 77 .22-250 that was a quarter inch shooter. I have a Contender pistol in .357 Supermag that shoots well under an inch and a REM XP-100 Pistol that shoots .5 MOA any day of the week. Oh, I forgot to mention, my range is actually a 100 meters, just a bit further than 100 yards. If I can't get a factory rifle to shoot .5 MOA, I usually get rid of it. The only one I had that fit that description was an A-Bolt in .300 Win. I had to bust my hump just to get it under an inch. That rifle is long gone. All I can say is that maybe you're just unlucky.By the way, did you notice from reading this thread just how many times the word "Savage" was mentioned ???

Good point, in that we are defining 1/2" groups in different ways.

For me, it is can I get a 3-4 shot .5" group on a calm day if I am using a good rest and not had much coffee. Both of my .223's will do that pretty regularly.

Could I have don't that a year ago? No, I didn't have the skills. Can I do it every day? No, but that is more a function of me than the rifles.

Would I want to compete on a serious level with either rifle? Probably not. I have seen quite a few bench rest guys happly punch out .3 and .2's and then complain that the barrel is shot out. If I can keep my varmit guns under 3/4", that is great!

quote:

By the way, did you notice from reading this thread just how many times the word "Savage" was mentioned ???

Man, that's true but, many men will role their eyes when you tell them that a Savage will flat out shoot.

Heck My Savage Mler shoots better than many big game rifles do. They definitely know alittle about making barrels.

Reloader

bowhunter, I am almost 68 years old and started shooting benchrest in high school, you figure out how many years that is. I have seen and shot a lot of rifles in those years and to be perfectly honest I don't remember a factory gun that would shoot consistantly shoot in the 2s. As I said, until I see one I do not believe it. Again repeating myself, go to the I.B.S. or N.B.R.S.A. sites and look up match results. These are some of the best shooters in the world, and your telling me that you can consistantly shoot better groups than they can with guns that have been refined over the years to do nothing but shoot the smallest groups possible. I really do not think so. Good Luck .

I have one of thoes junk/welfare Ruger M77MKII with the canoe paddle stock in .338WM that will put 3, 250g poor quality Hornady's in a .500 hole or less

My Tikka T3 in .308 and Remington .375 HH, are very accurate, easy too shoot so the holes touch eachother from 100 meters with handloaded ammo. But handloaded is all I shoot, never need to buy factory made ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:

quote:

By the way, did you notice from reading this thread just how many times the word "Savage" was mentioned ???

Man, that's true but, many men will role their eyes when you tell them that a Savage will flat out shoot.

Heck My Savage Mler shoots better than many big game rifles do. They definitely know alittle about making barrels.

Reloader

Savage made a believer out of me back before hunting season. I shoot Remingtons that are glassed and floated and they do 1/2 inch and less when I am calm.
I worked up a load for my nephew that has a Savage model 110 in 270. I shot a 1/2 group with 3 and shot 3 more bullets inside the same group. That rifle is as basic as it gets and I am still amazed. The bolt was not real smooth and it has a plastic trigger guard and not my style but Savage will shoot very straight.

I bought this gun when I was 12 and I'm 22 now and this gun has always shot like this with handload and some Factories. Rem 700 BDL SS

I have a 30-06 Model 70 Classic Super Grade that will shoot that tight with a couple of loads when I can hold it well enough. I also had a Remington 700 in .223 that would do it rather consistently. Most of my other rifles will go under an inch with some load. My 7 Ultra Mag Model 700 will put five under an inch and will stay minute of angle out to 700-800 yds but has never shot .5 inch or under.

I am surpised no one has said it yet, but there is one hell of a difference between 3 shot and 5 shot .5" groups. I have a CZ 527 varmint, that will usually put 4 shots into about .25 or so then throw one about .25 outside the cluster of 4 making the average groups in the mid .5's with winchester white box and black hills. If I was only during 3 shot groups, my average would prolly be in the 3's or 4's do I get groups like this everytime, no, but when I am on my game and trying my best the gun will agg these kind of groups.

For hunting rifles I am happy to have MOA for 3 shots

..

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
bowhunter, I am almost 68 years old and started shooting benchrest in high school, you figure out how many years that is. I have seen and shot a lot of rifles in those years and to be perfectly honest I don't remember a factory gun that would shoot consistantly shoot in the 2s. As I said, until I see one I do not believe it. Again repeating myself, go to the I.B.S. or N.B.R.S.A. sites and look up match results. These are some of the best shooters in the world, and your telling me that you can consistantly shoot better groups than they can with guns that have been refined over the years to do nothing but shoot the smallest groups possible. I really do not think so. Good Luck .

Next time you're traveling from Maine to Pennsylvania, PM me and maybe you'll have time to stop by and see for yourself. I would be happy to show you. As far as benchrest goes, one of my friends held the trophy in both benchrest orgs for 3 years straight back in the 80's before he quit shooting, so I'm familiar with benchrest. In fact it's his rest that he sold me when he quit that I use. Believe what you want, I know what the truth is and I'm not afraid to demonstrate it to ya !!!

Golly Gee here we go again. With a decent scope and a decent rest it's really not that hard to shoot 1/2" groups.
For the last couple years I have shot very little. I havent shot anything since a few days before deer season. I almost guarantee that I could go out tomorrow and consistently shoot 1/2" groups. Maybe I was just taught right I dont know.
Unless Im getting ready to go on a hunt I wont be shooting when it is cold either.

I had a A-Bolt 300WM one time. I had it shooting decent but couldnt really get it shooting like I wanted and I had a hog hunt coming up. I tried everything and it was shooting good enough for hunting I guess but not good enough for my personal standards. So I got a friend of mine to help me. He wanted to load 200gr SMK's he convinced me, cant remember the powder. Anyway it immediately went from a so-so shooter to touching bullet holes. Took it hog hunting the next weekend, estimated 300lb boar, one shot 30 yds running, bang flop, kicked a few times.
I guess what I am getting at here is that even some rifles that you think wont shoot 1/2" will with a little patience.



On the other hand I personally believe there are a lot more 1/2" rifles than there are 1/2" shooters. No I dont think I know.
People are better at some things than others. Some can draw, some can sing, and then some can shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
...Given enough time one could shoot a .5 in. group with a slingshot. I come to fl. in the winter as much to shoot as anything else, needless to say I am out at the range 3 or 4 times a week and have seen too many guns to believe all the stories on here. I have shown .5 in groups to guys that insisted it was a .1 or.2 no idea of what a 1/2 incher looks like. Just my opinion, I really do not mean to step on toes.

Hey Bob, Seems like a lot of toes being stomped on to me. And it also seems like there are a lot of folks able to shoot some excellent groups with regular old, factory stock rifles.

I do believe they are getting those groups at 100yds with regular old Factory rifles.

And I also believe, like you do, that in an actual BenchRest Match, when competing against Custom BenchRest rifles that the BenchRest rifles would win. But that is "NOT" the same thing at all.

BenchRest shooting is done under a considerably more difficult set of conditions and "stress levels". If you look back, you won't see anyone saying they have BenchRester's beating down their door to acquire "their" rifle to use only in BenchRest Matches.

You are apparently applying BenchRest "Match" thinking to a topic that has nothing to do with "Match" shooting. There is no stress except what we impose on ourselves, we have the option to "choose" the environmental conditions we shoot, no posting records of EVERY GROUP SHOT after every trip to the Range for all your peers to see and if our concentration is not focused, which allows the groups to open a bit on a particular day, we understand it.

I really don't remember seeing anyone saying they intend to take their "Factory Rifle" and go establish new BenchRest Records. I do appreciate all the effort the BenchRest folks make to get the groups they get and use a few of their tricks myself.

Just because folks choose not to shoot BenchRest does not mean they can't shoot well. To put it as nice as I can, your just missing the point and applying the wrong Standards. I believe once you understand that, you will realize none of the folks are pulling a clinton on anyone when they are talking about the accuracy of their factory rifles.
---

As for me and "my" factory rifles, I've no desire to go shoot BenchRest Matches anymore. (Don't want to embarrass them!)

Oh, ah, hmmmmmmm..... Upon some relection, I realize I have but one CF rifle in factory original condition, a .358 77. It does not shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards reliably. It shot one of .221" for 3 shots once, and a lot under 1". Can I average them out? As to the rest, I doubt that 1/2" rifles are all that rare, maybe 1/2" shooters and ammo are? MOA rifles are as common as flies however, and as far as field work is concerned it is a minor distinction...IMO.

I found the comparison betwixt bench shooting and factory rifles kinda...apples and oranges? Sort of like comparing VW's and Ferraris. It's either production or not, you can't really compare the two unless you're looking for a goal, or self amusement. I'd be curious to see how well the bench shooters can do afield with their guns, and bet probably not as good as the hunting guns. No more legit a test than the first comparison though. Maybe a 600 yard shoot for comparison? How'd that 6PPC do out there, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
On the other hand I personally believe there are a lot more 1/2" rifles than there are 1/2" shooters. No I dont think I know.
People are better at some things than others. Some can draw, some can sing, and then some can shoot.

I resemble that remark!

I originally responded to this thread to answer why I responded negativly to a post about shooting tiny groups. It is a simple matter of disagreement between myself and others on the accuracy of factory rifles. I believe that the AVERAGE factory gun is not a 1/2 min. shooter, but the post that I responded to was in regard to a spacific claim, and that is of a gentleman that claims to be shooting 1/4 inch groups at 200 yards with a factory Ruger. I do not believe it and never will. I do not even realize how we got off on this tangent of all factory guns but it is still my belief that while there are some that will shoot 1/2 in. the majority will not. As I say, just a difference of opinion.

I think a better gauge of how a hunting rifle shoots is as follows..

Shooter hikes straight up 10,000 ft. mountain with pack and rifle.
Shooter sights world class buck/ram/bull/etc at 200 yds.
With pounding heart and gasping breath shooter must try to hit broad side of barn with his 1/2" rifle.

Losers gather over there - take it easy, no jostling, there's plenty of room for everyone.

Shooter doesnt hold same sight picture every time, shooter doesnt control breathing, shooter doesnt squeeze trigger properly, shooter pulls, then shooter doesnt shoot 1/2" groups.

If shooter does these things correctly with good scope, good rifle, good ammo etc, on calm still day, if shooter is good shot shooter can shoot 1/2" groups.

I remember in basic training my Drill Sergeant eyes got big because my first three shot group with an M16 on the zero range was one big hole and everybody else's groups were all over the place. Of course I had been shooting since I could hold a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Rancho Loco:
I think a better gauge of how a hunting rifle shoots is as follows..

Shooter hikes straight up 10,000 ft. mountain with pack and rifle.
Shooter sights world class buck/ram/bull/etc at 200 yds.
With pounding heart and gasping breath shooter must try to hit broad side of barn with his 1/2" rifle.

Losers gather over there - take it easy, no jostling, there's plenty of room for everyone.

I do agree in the field though this is more like it.

These are the targets he is referring to...


5-shots at 200-yards.
It was fired using a Ruger 77V in .22-250 Remington with Leupold 12x optics
Case: Remington
Primer: Remington 9-1/2
Powder: 38.4 grains of H-380
Bullet: Sierra 52 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail


5-shots at 200-yards
It was fired using a Ruger 77V in .22-250 Remington with Leupold 24x optics
Case: Remington
Primer: Remington 9-1/2
Powder: 39.2 grains of H-414
Bullet: Sierra 55 grain Spitzer Boat Tail


5-shots at 200-yards.
It was fired using a Ruger 77R in 6MM Remington with Leupold 9x optics
Case: Remington
Primer: Remington 9-1/2
Powder: 43.2 grains of IMR-4350
Bullet: Sierra 85 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail


5-shots at 200-yards
It was fired using a Ruger 77R in .25-06 Remington with Leupold 10x optics
Case: Remington
Primer: Winchester WLR
Powder: 52.5 grains of H-4831
Bullet: Sierra 120 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail


5-shots at 200-yards.
It was fired using a Ruger 77R in .25-06 Remington with Leupold 10x optics
Case: Remington
Primer: Winchester WLR
Powder: 53.3 grains of H-4831
Bullet: Nosler 120 grain Spitzer Point Boat Tail


5-shots at 200-yards.
It was fired using a Ruger 77R in 7mm Remington Magnum with Leupold 12x optics
Case: Remington
Primer: CCI-200
Powder: 64.6 grains of RL-22
Bullet: Sierra 168 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail


5-shots at 100-yards.
It was fired using a Marlin 62 in .30 Carbine with Leupold 4x optics
Case: Remington
Primer: Remington 6-1/2
Powder: 15.4 grains of 2400
Bullet: Sierra 110 grain Round Nose


6-shots at 100-yards.
It was fired using a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine with open sights
Case: Remington
Primer: Remington 6-1/2
Powder: 15.4 grains of 2400
Bullet: Sierra 110 grain Round Nose


5-shots at 25-feet.
It was fired using a Firestar Plus in 9MM with open sights
Case: Remington
Primer: CCI-500
Powder: 7.5 grains of HS-6
Bullet: Speer 115 grain Jacketed Hollow Point


5-shots at 25 feet.
It was fired using a Firestar Plus in 9MM with open sights
Case: Remington
Primer: CCI-500
Powder: 6.7 grains of Power Pistol
Bullet: Nosler 115 grain Jacketed Hollow Point


6-shots at 75-yards.
It was fired using a Ruger Blackhawk in .357 Magnum with open sights
Case: Remington
Primer: CCI-550
Powder: 14.5 grains of 2400
Bullet: Sierra 158 grain Jacketed Hollow Cavity


5-shots at 25-feet.
It was fired using a Taurus 605 in .357 Magnum with a 2-1/4" barrel and open sights
Case: Remington
Primer: CCI-550
Powder: 20.0 grains of H-110
Bullet: Nosler 125 grain Jacketed Hollow Point


5-shots at 25-yards.
It was fired using a Firestar M-45 in .45ACP and open sights
Case: Hornady
Primer: CCI-300
Powder: 8.5 grains of Power Pistol
Bullet: Hornady 200 grain XTP


5-shots at 25-yards.
It was fired using a Smith & Wesson 645 in .45ACP and open sights
Case: Hornady
Primer: CCI-300
Powder: 7.4 grains of Unique
Bullet: Hornady 200 grain XTP

Hiya
Just got back from the range and thought I would share what happened today..
I'm working with my son's Mod 7 7mm/08, trying some Sierra 120gr spitzers. The loads were;

R-P cases
Fed 210 primers
Three shot groups; 200 yards.
Average velocities at 15 feet were around 2750-2800 fps.

The reason I shoot 200 yds is because just about anything can spit groups out at 100 yds.. If one is not going to shoot anything any farther than that, then that's fine.. But This rifle will be shooting at rock chucks, coyotes, diggers, and an occasional crow. Also my son is old enough now to go deer and antelope hunting with me so he will be shooting at 200-300 yds. That's about as far as the effective range will be given the initial velocity. I want to know how the bullets stabilize at those ranges. So many times I have seen rifles group well at 100 yds only to find out that they cannot group the load at 300. The shooter assumes that since the groups are 1" at 100, they should be about 3-4" at 300. They were shocked to find out the rifle fails to stabilize the bullets at 300 when they actually put a target out there and shoot 300 yds.

42.5 grs IMR3031
44.5 grs Rx 15
44.5 grs IMR4064

The IMR3031 load shot a group 9/16"
The Rx 15 load shot a group 1/2"
The IMR4064 load shot a group 1-1/4"

I will shoot these loads at 300 yds just to make sure but I think my son is gonna have a ball with this rifle this spring..

Mr. Ricadelli, you have omitted the group size here that you have published with the same groups earlier in this thread. From top to bottom they are listed by you as .260-.580-.342-.489-.717-.303. They are also the same groups that you have had on that page since I have been on here. You also stated that you had a closet full of Rugers that will all shoot that well. Again I do not believe that you do, plain and simple. If these groups were shot at 200 yards they are one group in many months of trying.

Well, to tell the truth, I really don't give a rat's ass if you believe me or not.

I posted those pictures for the benefit of those who have no idea about what you are ranting and raving.

When the weather breaks I have three more tang-safety Rugers, all sporter weight barrels, that I will be working-up loads for. Another .22-250, another 6MM and a .220 Swift.

When I find the right load for these rifles, I will post pictures on my site...

As an after-thought, you are also wrong about the many months statement. It took me 6 years to find the right load for that .25-06...