I have a .223 Savage 10 Preditor Hunter with a 22" barrel. I started loading my own stuff last week and I am trying to fine tune to get inside 1" groups. As of now they are scattered at about 2" regularly. I am trying some different powder loads this weekend but I had another question. I became a member of loaddata.com they have all the up to date load data that I need but I still have a question. I emailed the company and they said if I can't get inside the 1" grouping with the loads I'm going to try this weekend I should try different powder and he suggested H-335. I am using Benchmark right now with Nosler 55g bullets and also Hornady 50g bullets. Anyone have any idea why the H-335 might work better as he suggested?

H335 and 52 grain match bullets are one of those "gift" loads that works very well in anything.

How many rounds do you have down the Savage's tube? They sometimes shoot very indifferently until all the tiny boogers in the barrel get smoothed out.

Try 24.5 to 25.5 of H335, load to 2.25" and I'll bet it'll shoot well.

Mark

I concur with the 25 H335 and a 52 Sierra in most .223's. Actually I mostly shoot the fast twist barrels now, so mostly shoot Varget and 69's.

If you are new to reloading, then it is more likely that something in your methodology is the problem rather than the powder.

The way you resize, prep your cases, seat your primers, seat your bullets, crimp or not crimp -- all can have significant affect on potential accuracy. Review your technique before chasing a better powder -- there are very few powders in the "medium" rifle powder burning range that don't work well with a .223.

You've gotten good advice, but I'll add this:

Slightly adjust your seating depth.

Try lighter bullets some 40 and 45 grainers.

Try H335 (or a different powder).

Why some powders, bullets, and combinations thereof work better than others is something of a mystery. Though it sure can be frustrating.

LWD

my favorite is BL-C(2)

however.....stonecreek gave very good advice.

I use Berger 55GR Match Target bullet, Win 748 26.5 gr, Remington Small rifle Bench rest primers, Lapua cases in my Savage 223.
Things I did at the start were
A basic reloading course.
Get access to or buy reasonable quality reloading gear.
Organize somebody to look over your shoulder on a regular basis. While I was reloading and shooting targets.
Watch how the targets at the range were for other people that were interested in shooting the same caliber. Talk to the ones who are getting the results you are working towards.
Join the Savage forum and learn about the quirks of reloading for your model savage ( if there are any ).
http://www.savageshooters.com/
I think the goal at the start for me was to be able to reload good enough quality reloads that were consistent so that I could concentrate on my technique of shooting.
Then try and improve my shooting technique that rather than blame average quality reloads.
I'm still working towards that.
Reloading is great fun and a constant source of pleasure and also pride at times.

I have been a handloader for 30 yrs. My interests are mainly big bore rifles, and have developed several of my own wildcats, all big bore. For 30 yrs I did not pay much attention to my 223s. I loaded 27 grs WW 748 and various 55 gr bullets since forever. Mostly Nosler BTs. Accurate in everything I shoot from several various ARs to the bolt guns! Tiny 5 shot groups at 100 yds with every rifle I own. However I was always a little concerned about the huge extreme spreads, sometimes in some rifles as much as 100fps??? How on earth could rifles be so accurate with spreads like that? Recently I embarked on a 223 mission to try other powders and bullets to see if I could come up with something that did not have such extreme spreads and was as accurate and reliable in various rifles. My test work involved two different rifles and extremely accurate S&W AR and a Win M70 Varmint rifle. I worked with everything from Barnes 36 gr bullet to 62 gr Barnes X, Nosler 55 BTs, cheap rem 55s, hornady 55s, Sierra 55s and so forth. Powders WW 748 25-27 grs, H335, RL 7, RL 10X, Benchmark, AA 2460, Varget, and H322. I found some very good loads, accurate, worked thru the ARs and did well in the bolt guns.

However, in almost every case, 95% of the time, the loads with hi extreme spreads-60-125 fps, performed the best, was the most accurate by far than the loads with small extreme spreads, say 25 fps or less???? With the big bore rifles I do not have this phenomenon? The only powder that gave good accuracy and reasonable extreme spreads was RL 10X. I am not sure I understand how it is possible to get such accuracy with the huge extreme spreads? Any thoughts here?

Thanks
Michael

I've been loading 55 grain Hornadys with H335 for my ARs for a dozen years or more. They work very well, but a couple years ago my wife bought me a Savage 12. They only shot so-so. I tried dozens of various brands and weights of bullets from 40 thru 55 grains and 6 different powders. After extensive testing I settled on 40 NBTs and RL10X for pds. While one other load was slightly more accurate, with this load I was able to get some extreme velocities with small deviations and one hole groups.

I just finished loading 2,500 rounds for this summers trip to the big pd patch.

With benchmark try either upping the load a bit or switching to a different primer.

I've had major issues with H335 in my bolt rifle
in cold temps, inconsistant igniton resulting in vertical stringing. This was never a problem in warm weather.

Magnum small rifle primers eliminated the issue.

It's also possible your rifle just doesn't like that particular bullet.

since you just started reloading I've gotta ask this...
Have you segregated your brass by brand/headstamp?

AD

I have all my brass seperated according to brand. I will have to see what happens at the range this weekend. I loaded a bunch of different types of loads and bullet combo's. I will see what happens next. I am keeping a log of each different load I do and how it performed.

good advice so far, digger - only thing i can add is to keep trying, be consistent and above all keep good records!

i'll check my stuff tonight and see what i can come up with. it seems somewhere that i had a good load for .223, but the only powder that comes to mind is IMR-4895 and i am not sure if that is right....

I have a CZ527 , the chamber is a bit longer the my Howa or AR. I get great results with 55gr. SP and 24.5gr 3031.

Thats the way to do it digger0040.Don`t give up on the Benchmark just yet.I suspect you will find a nice load as you work up toward max load.

Varget is a decent choice if you can find it and have used it in a wide variety of calibers.Also like H4895.Both very versatile powders.If you wanna try spherical powder BLC2 comes to mind.

At this point dont put anything down the bore except a brush...it will skew your results.IMO a "dirty" bore shows a clearer picture of your load`s performance.Take pics this weekend.Good Luck!

Here`s what 26gr of H4895 did with a 50gr Ballistic Tip in Gordon`s M77 Ruger boat paddle rifle using the LeeLoader at the range.His Dad said he never missed a groundhog with it and I am a believer.

[/IMG]

digger - i did some checking and while you can get good results with IMR 4895 and varget (i do recommend trying these), the best results do indeed seem to come from experimenting with H335. i would suggest trying all three but also keep working with your original powder.

if you don't have the budget to buy them all, perhaps you know someone who can "loan" you some to load up a few rounds and try - i'd recommend inviting them over and having them bring the powder (or simply loaning the whole containter) so you can load up a few rounds rather than putting some in another container accidents happen that way. then you can try a few of each to decide if you should buy an entire pound.

one of them will eventually combine with the right charge, seating depth etc. and you are going to really see some dramatic improvement!

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
If you are new to reloading, then it is more likely that something in your methodology is the problem rather than the powder.

The way you resize, prep your cases, seat your primers, seat your bullets, crimp or not crimp -- all can have significant affect on potential accuracy. Review your technique before chasing a better powder -- there are very few powders in the "medium" rifle powder burning range that don't work well with a .223.

I too, agree with Stonecreek. Are you trimming your brass to uniform length? Are you neck sizing your cases ? Have you tried different seating depths? I have had very good results with a slew of powders in the .223, Accurate 2200, 2230, 2460, 2015; Hodgdon H-335, Varget and 4895, Ramshot TAC, and Reloder 15. I haven't tried Benchmark, but I would be surprised if I couldn't get it to group 5 shots under an inch at 100 yards with good bullets (Nosler 40 or 50 gr Ballistic Tips, 52 gr HP, Hornady SP or Vmax, or Sierras).
Which loading manual are you using? I like the Nosler manuals because they give you hints as to which powder charge was the most accurate in their test barrel. And while all rifles are unique in what will prove to be their best load, I believe that the Nosler manual does give you a good place to start.
Also, you can take a few extra steps in your quest for consistent accuracy. For instance, I make sure that my brass is uniform in length. I neck size the brass so it fits the particular rifle's chamber. I also debur the flash holes in the cases. I hand seat the primers with a Lee auto prime, it gives a more sensitive feel for consistent seating depth.
In my .223's I have had the best luck with 50 gr bullets, accuracy wise. But then all 3 .223's that I have owned over the years have had the 1 in 12" twist barrels. I believe your Savage has a 1 in 9" twist, and may prefer heavier bullets in the 55 to 68 gr range. It should shoot the 55 gr Noslers just fine, but again, some rifles don't show their potential until you find the bullet they like. I think that different bullets will show greater accuracy variations than different powders (as long as the powders are similar burning rates). Good luck and let us know how it works out.

As I have always said... it is harder to find a powder in a 223 that DOESN'T WORK than it is to find one that does a good job...

I have to admit, even tho 25 grains of H 335 is an accuracy champ by reputation, I won't use H 335 period...

I have had two blow ups in bolt 223s, and both loads were 25 grains of H335 with a 55 grain bullet... don't ask me why.. it erupted enough to split the stock all to hell and back...both times..

If you have ever fired H 335 at night, you won't believe the Muzzle flash you will get!

that doesn't concern me as I don't hunt at night... but what I do, do is shoot the 223 when laying down in some pretty dry places at times... and that muzzle flash has so far only started one little brush fire that was easily put out.... however I don't want to repeat that experience....

If you want to use flake powder like that, try any of the AA powders or the BLC2 and W 748 powders, which are one in the same, just a different container...

My favorite 223 powders ( although a lot of others do a good job) are RL 7, H 322, IMR 4198, H 4198, Varget, IMR 4895...

folks also know I like Blue Dot and SR 4759.. but if you are new to reloading, most don't have the discipline to use those choices...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
...folks also know I like Blue Dot....

I agree with that. And seafire will gladly, happily and joyfully share Blue Dot Loads with you that both nearly blow rifles apart as well as "dreamed-up", "guessed-at", "doesn't have a clue about the Secondary Explosion Effect" which will blow rifles into easy to transport pieces.

Has seafire maimed or Killed anyone yet? Beats me, but it is just a matter of time.
-----

Stick with Loads shown in the Manuals which have been thoroughly Tested on $$$Millions$$$ of Factory Test Equipmant.

quote:

Originally posted by mickberger:
Here`s what 26gr of H4895 did with a 50gr Ballistic Tip in Gordon`s M77 Ruger boat paddle rifle using the LeeLoader at the range.His Dad said he never missed a groundhog with it and I am a believer.

[/IMG]

mick,

That's the exact same load that works very well in three 223 rifles, as well as two rifles chambered in 222 Rem Mag. In each rifle I get 1/2" five shot groups, or better in a couple of rifles. But, it only works in mine using Winchester WSR primers. I tried Frederal 205M's and got double the size groups.
H-335 shoots well with 40 grain Sierra Blitz bullets too.
FWIW for the original poster who's having difficulty, I seat bullets .010 off the lands first as that's the most accutae seating for most of my rifles, then adjust if needed for best accuracy. That was the seating depth I used for my benchrest rifles and it produced excellent accuracy in those rifles.

digger you might also take a look here:

http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum91/

several topics on .223 and it's all free. good folks there who know what they are doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by seafire2:
...folks also know I like Blue Dot....

I agree with that. And seafire will gladly, happily and joyfully share Blue Dot Loads with you that both nearly blow rifles apart as well as "dreamed-up", "guessed-at", "doesn't have a clue about the Secondary Explosion Effect" which will blow rifles into easy to transport pieces.

Has seafire maimed or Killed anyone yet? Beats me, but it is just a matter of time.
-----

QUOTE]

and with every batch of info that I share I am now recommend that they also read your postings on the subject, then that way they can make up their own minds of what they want to do...

Is that fair enough?

or you want to just keep the personal vendetta going?

but in your criticism, don't forget to tell folks that you thought those blue dot loads were the greatest thing since sliced bread when I first started posting them...

ONE guy only has had a problem and personally admitted to a double charge from not paying attention...

so If you are going to keep flaming it, then remember to tell the entire story, just not the ones that you think will fit your vendetta agenda...

Blue Dot is as safe as any other and like any other powder you need to know what its parameters are... and if you can't do that, then reloading is not for that individual...

ANY powder can kill or maime anybody, if they don't know what they are doing....

or are you advocating idiot proof loads, like 4831 in a 223.. because you feel the rest of the forum members here are idiots and need you guidance?

you can slam my loads, but advertising that my mission in life is to maime or kill people is over the line..

management around here thinks it is free speech on your part....I personally think it is because you are a self centered asshole who thinks he is the self appointed reloading authority on this forum...and jealous that it was not your idea in the first place......

Yeah DMB,that load is also with Win primers.I like it a lot.

That is a peach of a rifle and very easy to group with.And the cartridge "just" fits in the magazine.

I'm likely large amounts of RL-7 with 40 grainers for some fast stepping accurate loads in the .223. Searfire2 has some great posts on those loads which I have followed to great success.

Seafire2:
I don't think you should sugarcoat your comments with Hotsh**. Just go ahead and tell him what you think of his trash!!!!!!!!. Unfortunately he believes that he is the Grand Suppository of all reloading information. Let's be quiet and let him think that he is..... besides the Doctor said it's best if he doesn't get upset just right now. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

Thanks for all your reply's everyone....Now I am afraid to go to the range this weekend. I get most of my reloading info from LoadData.com. It takes all the latest info from all the new books and keeps it on one site. It gives you all the info you need to load rounds. Tells you what was the most accurate and what the max and min loads were etc. etc... I have some loads that I made with the H335 but now I am afraid to shoot them. I followed the specs to the T. First 4 I made are w/ 52g Sierra Bullets, Black Hills once fired Brass, CCI BR4 primers, H335 26.2g, OAL 2.210

The second is 52g Sierra Bullets, Same Brass, Winchester Primers, H335 27g, OAL 2.300

Third- 50g V-Max Hornady, Rem Brass, Benchmark 22.6g, CCI BR4 Primers, OAL 2.260

Fourth- 55g Nosler, Rem Brass, Benchmark 23g, Winchester Primers, OAL 2.260

and Last to try this weekend-
55g Nosler, Benchmark 24g, Rem Brass, Winchester Primers, OAL 2.270

That's what I am trying this weekend to see where I get the best results. I think I am going to shoot the benchmark rounds first and the H335 last just in case I have an issue like seafire. I'm now worried about even giving the H335 a try. It was recomended by someone who actually shoots it in a 22" barrel savage similar to mine and has had fantastic luck with it for sub MOA groups.

Digger0040,
Ive not used H335 at all but have nothing against it either.According to Lyman 48th manual you are a full grain under max with 26.2gr with a 52gr bullet.Probably/maybe a good load.

For some reason the 27gr load scares me too for a start load,Id get a kinetic bullet puller and drop down to 25.7gr and shoot it first before going to the 26.2 load.Safety first.

The Benchmark should perform well.

Call tonite if you can.

quote:

Id get a kinetic bullet puller and drop down to 25.7gr and shoot it first before going to the 26.2 load.Safety first.

good advice!

I am not trying to scare folks away from H 335.. I have just had two incidences with it and don't understand why...

I know it is highly regards in many circles for its accuracy potential....

I have to admit, I don't want to come across like HOT Core, preaching death doom and destruction...

It is just there are so many powders otherwise that are available for the 223, that do a good job...

One of the last ones I ever tried, due to unavailability locally for a long time, was H 322... just no one carried it...

But Digger, since it is made by ADI, it should be available down in Oz.. under whatever designation...

but I have found 25 grains of it, with a bullet weight of 30 to 60 grains in a 223, are just a star crossed combo for accuracy...

If I was limited to one powder in the 223, it would either be RL 7 or H 322...for bullet wts of the 63 grain Sierra and down...

quote:

.223 Savage 10 Preditor Hunter with a 22"

this gun has a 1:9 twist .

I would go with a heavier bullet 62gr - 69 gr. The cool thing about a new gun and reloading is you get to tweak the loads change bullets , powder seating depth and you will find the right stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by mickberger:
Yeah DMB,that load is also with Win primers.I like it a lot.

That is a peach of a rifle and very easy to group with.And the cartridge "just" fits in the magazine.

Mick,

I discovered that load by accident. And after shooting several rifles with that load, I thought died and went to heaven...

I'm looking at the load chart for the Sierra 52g matchking bullets and the H-335 powder and the loads range in charges from 24.1 to 27.6g that's why I though the 27g would be safe because it's a full .6 grams from max. I am going to listen to you all for sure though I will pull the bullets and drop the powder load to one of the lower charges and see what happens there.

quote:

Originally posted by Digger0040:
... I will pull the bullets and drop the powder load to one of the lower charges and see what happens there.

No need to Pull the Bullets, just load some "other" cases at lower Load levels and work your way up while watching for all the normal Pressure Indicators. You may be able to reach the 27.0gr with no problem, or you might be too hot for your rifle. You won't know until you work your way up from below as to where a Safe MAX is for your rifle.

Whoever gave you the advice to simply start near the top is leading you down the wrong path. You always start low and work up which is one of the basic Reloading principals.

If you read the Manuals, follow their instructions and stay with Loads found in those same Manuals, you will do fine.

Good deal digger0040.Makes me feel better.

A tale of 2 rifles FWIW.

A friend inherited a real nice M721 Remington in .270 Winchester.Reportedly a shooter from Remington gave Doc(veterinarian)the rifle years ago.It had a Weaver K10 scope on it with a Pachmmayr flip over style mount.The scope was toast and pretty much unfixable.So I brought it home and cleaned it up well,got some Leupold mounts and rings and set a Whitetail Classic 6-20x on it.I figured H4831 would be the berries so I loaded some 130gr Nosler BT`s with 56gr,57gr,and 58gr(max Lyman 48th).Top load is supposed to be 60gr(Hodgdons site).At 58gr it was cratering the primer...a little warm.With 56gr it cloverleafs well at 100yds and it is relatively easy to hit a 5" ShootnSee off the 2 dollar sticks I use in the field.

My Ruger#1 in 243Win.I polished off a pound of H414 and it was real good.I figured I`d try Varget.I`d tried it in a bunch of calibers and figured why not.With a 75gr VMax at 37.5gr it cratered the primer.Some data says 41gr(Lyman 48th) as max,some 38.5gr(Hodgdon).

So there ya have it and the reason I was concerned.The old truth that each rifle is an individual is in fact true.I know you will be successful.

I'm presently going through the same dilema, I'm loading IMR4985 with 55 g Vmax and 2 out of 5 groups will shoot under an inch and I don't know why. I bought 55g Sierra spbt's at a show and loaded them up and bingo all groups under an inch most between .4 and .75. went back to drawing board on the Vmax with seating depth and powder charges still the same, I guess my rifle doesn't like the Vmax. I tested The Vmax with seating depths just off the lands and worked them in .010 icrements to try and find optimal seating depth that would shoot under an inch and couldn't find it.I shot a 5 shot group with the Sierra's @ .465. I trimmed LC brass to 1.750 with 26.5g of IMR4895 with CCI small rifle primers and the OAL is 2.250 for the Sierras and the Vmax and tested, the Sierras won hands down. The Vmax is a much longer bullet than the Sierra, maybe that has something to do with it? My barrel is a 1 in 12 twist. I think I'll plink with the Vmax I have left and load the Sierra for hunting. My next trick will be to load the Sierra with Reloader 10x which yeilds much higher velocity than the Imr4895, but will my accuracy fall off? Only time will tell, I be back at the range in a couple of weeks to test.

Hey Everyone,
Ok....Here's what happened at the range today.



On this first target Top Right: Hornady 50g V-Max, Benchmark Powder 22.6g, CCI BR4 Primers, 4 shots but only 3 hit the paper in this area.
Top Left: Hornady 50g V-Max, Benchmark Powder 24.8g, CCI BR4 Primers, 4 shots pretty happy for starters with this. I may increase the powder load to 25g-25.2g next time.
Bottom Right: Nosler 55g, Benchmark 23g, Win Primers, Not good!
Bottom Left: Nosler 55g, Benchmark 24g, Win Primers, Not Bad? Any suggestions on what to try next for this round? Ok now for my second target with different bullets and powder


I was really happy with my first 4 shots on the Right: Aiming for the 2 after that I aimed for the first hole. Sierra 52g bullets, H335 Powder 25.6g, Win Primers. Left Side: Aimed for the second horizontal line, everything was the same as the first shots on the right except CCI BR4 primers and 26.2g H335 Powder, I seemed to have had a flyer bullet somewhere because I could not find it on the paper. The first 3 started off decent on the Left side. Now I know I said I would not do this but I checked my shells after each shot and they were all still in great condition after shooting 26.2g so I decided to go ahead and shoot my 27g H335 rounds. They are the ones in the middle with the other 2 just on the one line. Overall the best was the 25.6g H335 with OAL 2.300. Just have to figure out how to tighten up the groups with the V-Max and Nosler bullets. I know my gun likes the Factory Hornady V-max I shoot .50-.75MOA with it all the time. As always any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated. EXCLUDING comments on how dumb it was for me to shoot 27g of H335 Powder.

lookin good, lookin good!

i'd say that you've got somethng to work with there and can tweak that to a very accurate load!

god forbid, you dind't do that with a lee LOADER, did you?

I know I am pretty happy with the little lee loader. I have no complaints about it at all except one. I wish it was a bit quicker. My wife saw how much time and effort I was putting into the whole thing and she broke down and let me purchase the Lee 4 turret press with collet dies. It should be here in 3 weeks they said. I plan on using the little lee loader to work on fine tuning my loads then the turret press to produce them quickly. I still have some work to do though. I'm not sure where to go from here it seems like I should go up in powder on some of them bring the 23g and 24g up to 24.6 or somewhere around there. I am going to check my load data sheets and see what the next step up is for the ones that were just ok.

quote:

I plan on using the little lee loader to work on fine tuning my loads then the turret press to produce them quickly.

sounds like a plan! don't forget to play with your seating depth a bit as this does make a difference. i would also recommend the lee factory crimp die - some will mock this recommendation, but for the price it is too good to pass up and could make a big difference. I contacted the folks at lee and they said that the collet die, the dead-length seating die that omces with the collet die set and the lee factory crimp die all work together like chocolate and peanut butter.

quote:

Originally posted by Digger0040:
I'm looking at the load chart for the Sierra 52g matchking bullets and the H-335 powder and the loads range in charges from 24.1 to 27.6g that's why I though the 27g would be safe because it's a full .6 grams from max.

Digger,
It may be a typo or just a brain fart but remember, we are dealing with GRAINS NOT GRAMS!
one gram is on the order of 15.4 grains. Not trying to nitpick or anything but if you can cram 25 grams of any powder in a 223, you are going to blow more than primers.

Good deal Digger0040.I also like the load on the bottom target right side.Seating depth adjustment may make it a great load.Shows promise.Does the 2.300 fit your magazine?

On the top target bottom left I like it a lot also.Bump it up a half grain.You can still bump up 3 times and not hit never exceed load.If it tightens up more....tweak seating depth.It shows promise.I like it.

Are you sure you had a flyer???Right to left.If I`m reading correctly,25.6gr H335 is on right, the 27gr load is in the bullseye,Just left of it on the second circle is 26.2gr H335 with CCI BR4 primers.And the extreme left group is also 26.2gr H335 BR4 primers.

You shoot well.

You`ll like the collet dies and turret press.I use collet dies a lot.