Over the years, I've loaded cases multiple times until they fail. Never considered it dangerous. I don't shoot thousands of rounds, or even hundreds, but after finding my preferred loads, just use them in hunting. I have had a small number of cases fail: mostly a crack just ahead of the solid web probably from work hardening as I don't anneal. Have had a couple cases over the years of a blown primer: only 2 that I remember. Having said all of that, I read on another part of AR that some fellow knew someone that had blown a rifle as a result (said the poster) of re-using a case I think 14 times. Having said all of that, am I in a dangerous area continuing to reuse my cases as I have in the past until they fail as in cracking. Please educate me in this area. thank you.

If you neck size only and anneal occasionally they can go on for a very long time. Now in the case of very old brass/ammo that has set a very long time, it becomes brittle and they split when fired. I seen a friend ruin a rifle that way. Another friend had some very old French 30-06 ammo for the Garand. Every case split length wise when fired.

I don't know about "blowing a rifle", but,

Split necks
Loose primer pockets
"Ring" above case head

Shit can the brass and start anew.

I have been using the same cases for hunting in Africa for 12-15 times.

In fact, the only reason I stop using them is when they develop cracks in the neck or shoulder.

Never had any blow up.

in an extreme case, i fired the SAME 257 roberts case, with a mild load, a lee hand loader, and a very slow day at the range FIFTY TIMES in the same day.

brass was WW 257+p, load was a MILD 3031, win primer, and a sierra bullet - weight i don't recall .. my kids had just got a 10/22, and i gave them and the wife 2 bricks of 22 to go have fun at the 22 range

I had sav 99 that had severe head space that would crack a case in to after the 2nd loading never saw any damage to the rifle.

Had a 22 hornet that cracked case fairly often never saw any damage to the rife

Had a 7mm TCU hat cracked cases fairly often never saw any damage

So I am not to concerned about it

If the shoulder is not set back when resizing the brass (assuming a rimless bottleneck case which headspaces on the shoulder) then there will be no thinning at the pressure ring which develops just in front of the case head at the point where the case walls become thin enough that they expand to bear against the chamber walls. Loaded in this manner, the case neck will split from work-hardening (not dangerous) long before a more dangerous head separation is imminent. This assumes sustainable pressures within the parameters of the case design, of course.

quote:

devere
one of us
posted 29 March 2020 03:50
Over the years, I've loaded cases multiple times until they fail. Never considered it dangerous. I don't shoot thousands of rounds, or even hundreds, but after finding my preferred loads, just use them in hunting. I have had a small number of cases fail: mostly a crack just ahead of the solid web probably from work hardening as I don't anneal. Have had a couple cases over the years of a blown primer: only 2 that I remember. Having said all of that, I read on another part of AR that some fellow knew someone that had blown a rifle as a result (said the poster) of re-using a case I think 14 times. Having said all of that, am I in a dangerous area continuing to reuse my cases as I have in the past until they fail as in cracking. Please educate me in this area. thank you.

Stonecreek pretty much nailed it.
I will add I would not consider your current practise dangerous.
I am assuming you use a FL sizing die. By slight adjustment of the FL die sizing brass closer to chamber dimensions, you may greatly reduce / prevent further cracking ahead of the web and extend case life even further. Only if you consider this worthwhile as it's only happening to few cases as you say.
Blown primers... you probably know anyway but usually a sign of a load that's just too hot and needs to be backed off. Or, go to a slightly slower powder and start working up again.
I almost always shoot my own handloads. Usually I get to around 20 loads before brass failure starts which is almost always split necks ( I don't anneal ). This is not dangerous.
I have had a round blow up on me ( not my handload ) one time when shooting some very old surplus .270W handloads given to me. First shot went off sounding a bit funny. Second shot went off sounding very funny and puff of smoke from the bolt region of my Sako AV. Opened the bolt and no case extraction. Removed the bolt and found the extractor blown out. End of range session so went home and started pulling bullets from these loads. About half pulled with necks welded to the bullets. In every case powder was solidified and damp. Took the lot and dumped into a deep wet pit.

quote:

Originally posted by 30.06king:
... About half pulled with necks welded to the bullets...

This is a matter that concerned Bill Hambly Clark Jnr very much in his book Centrefire Rifle Accuracy and he thinks it can happen to any handload within a relatively short time. I can't imagine it would raise pressure too much in the short run but IIRC he leaves his reloads a little long and seats the bullets finally just before use. In the case of bullets well welded, I wouldn't be surprised if trying to reseat them might bulge the case shoulders.

Personally, I think this is more a factor of the chamber rather than the case.

A sloppy chamber big chamber and full length resizing is going to cause trouble.

great feedback guys. Just what I was looking for.

I'm curious as to how you adjust your sizer die to eliminate or at least minimize work hardening the brass just forward of the web. I know that just neck sizing will do this, but how about if you want to set the shoulder back just a hair? thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
If the shoulder is not set back when resizing the brass (assuming a rimless bottleneck case which headspaces on the shoulder) then there will be no thinning at the pressure ring which develops just in front of the case head at the point where the case walls become thin enough that they expand to bear against the chamber walls. Loaded in this manner, the case neck will split from work-hardening (not dangerous) long before a more dangerous head separation is imminent. This assumes sustainable pressures within the parameters of the case design, of course.

I agree completely. I have several metric calibres that brass is a little hard to find (9.3x64, 9.3x66, 8x60 etc) at times so I anneal the necks after 5 firings. I have a number of cases that are over 20 reloads and still going strong.

quote:

Originally posted by devere:
great feedback guys. Just what I was looking for.

I'm curious as to how you adjust your sizer die to eliminate or at least minimize work hardening the brass just forward of the web. I know that just neck sizing will do this, but how about if you want to set the shoulder back just a hair? thanks

I never set my sizing dies by the usual instructions "crank the sizer down until it contacts the shell holder, then turn down another 1/4-1/2 turn". I size a case long (die does not contact shell holder) then try it in the rifle (action will not close). Then turn the die down a slight amount and repeat trying it in the chamber until the bolt closes easily. Once you verify this with 2 or 3 more cases your sizing die is set. You can also buy gauges to verify that you are only bumping the shoulder back .002 or so.

quote:

....I'm curious as to how you adjust your sizer die to eliminate or at least minimize work hardening the brass just forward of the web. I know that just neck sizing will do this, but how about if you want to set the shoulder back just a hair? thanks

To be clear, “just neck sizing” doesn’t work harden the brass just forward of the web, in fact that method reduces the risk of a case head separation. The problem the OP describes - a crack just ahead of the web - is caused by setting the shoulder back when sizing and causing the case wall to stretch at each firing. This stretching causes a ring of thin metal to form ahead of the web which eventually will cause a crack or even a full case head separation. Blacktailer has described a good method for setting your dies to prevent this. One note: when adjusting the die do not turn it more than 1/16th of a turn at a time. This equals 0.004” of die adjustment.

Oh, and you do NOT want to anneal a case right above the case head!


.

devere
posted 30 March 2020 02:03

quote:

I'm curious as to how you adjust your sizer die to eliminate or at least minimize work hardening the brass just forward of the web. I know that just neck sizing will do this, but how about if you want to set the shoulder back just a hair? thanks

I hope these videos help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLG2kSrD40g

This guy below uses the Redding Competition Shellholder Set and sizes in a Sizer Die without a decapper. You can achieve the same by
using a standard FL sizer die and shellholder and just adjusting down in incremental turns ( 1/8 turn each time is what I use ) but the video in principal is correct in showing the "feel" you want when chambering a correctly sized case. "Feel" is also possible without removing other bolt spring tension as in the video. The video guy calls the # 4 shellholder his default setting but personally I would say #6 or # 4 is fine. Another thing I found with setting dies for shoulder headspacing with newish brass is when thinking the die properly and finally set is after shooting and reloading several times the brass became a little tighter to chamber. I think this is because brass has less ability to spring back in size the more it's fired. In such cases I turned the FL die down 1/8 turn more and found thereafter no more adjustment was necessary. Sometime such tightening when chambering indicates neck stretching necessitating trimming back to length. Keep an eye on this with your caliper and trim when required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldtbsym650k

Have fun and good luck.

This is another MYTH, still widely held by shooters, that a case separation will instantly atomize your rifle and kill you. IT WON'T. This information, false, is from the same guys who tell me that .004 extra headspace is dangerous; they have no idea as to how much "room" SAAMI allows; .015 would not be uncommon. Remember, rifles and ammo are only designed to fit together for One shot; that is, factory ammo fired once. After that, the deal is off.
You won't even notice it, unless you had other issues like welded in bullets and massive overloads.
Where a case will cause problems is, if it is very old and brittle and cracks through the head, longitudinally, so as to allow max gas pressure to be released to the rear. That is bad, but never happens these days; our brass is so good.
Yes, do not cause too much extra space between the bolt and case head, it will shorten your brass life but it won't hurt anything else.
I am sure that the guy who knew the guy who heard someone had a problem, had some other cause for it, than just a separated case.

so back to my original question: danger in using a case over and over again, as I have always done. Then the question evolved rightly so into the correct way to resize to avoid case head separations. SO: is it your consensus that if one is not oversizing the case, i.e. just bumping back the shoulder maybe .002" or so, that there is minimal danger in using the case until you have neck splitting or some other case failure? But even then, I suppose that if you anneal the necks, that you could get many, many reloads with no real danger. Am I missing something?

quote:

so back to my original question: danger in using a case over and over again, as I have always done. Then the question evolved rightly so into the correct way to resize to avoid case head separations. SO: is it your consensus that if one is not oversizing the case, i.e. just bumping back the shoulder maybe .002" or so, that there is minimal danger in using the case until you have neck splitting or some other case failure? But even then, I suppose that if you anneal the necks, that you could get many, many reloads with no real danger. Am I missing something?

Well done. I think your statement above is exactly right.

I've had more than a few total case separations over the years. No damage to the rifles or to me. As dpcd and others have indicated, it's really a non issue. Shit happens.

I answered your original question; is there danger in using a case over and over? The answer is, no. You now have the right technique to extend the life of your brass, but regardless of it's life, it is not dangerous. Even if you grossly oversize it each time and it only lasts two firings, it is not dangerous. What Craig said.

thanks guys

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
in an extreme case, i fired the SAME 257 roberts case, with a mild load, a lee hand loader, and a very slow day at the range FIFTY TIMES in the same day.

jeffe,

I can tell you doing the shots on one day is not like doing them over time.

I have a 6mm PPC bench rifle.

It has a tight chamber, I don’t even need to neck size the cases.

I have used the same cases in it for many years, but have no idea how many times they have been fired.

quote:

Originally posted by devere:
so back to my original question: danger in using a case over and over again, as I have always done. Then the question evolved rightly so into the correct way to resize to avoid case head separations. SO: is it your consensus that if one is not oversizing the case, i.e. just bumping back the shoulder maybe .002" or so, that there is minimal danger in using the case until you have neck splitting or some other case failure? But even then, I suppose that if you anneal the necks, that you could get many, many reloads with no real danger. Am I missing something?

I believe a number of reloaders are puzzled by the best way to adjust your sizing die. If you use 1-fired cases that have been fired in another rifle you will want to FL size the cases. Then you don't to push the shoulder back on subsequent resizings so you either need another size or be constantly adjusting the size die. I set my size dies to just touch the shell holder so I can full length size cases when required. Then I use a 3/4 to 1/2 inch conduit reducing washer between the die lock ring and the top of the press. The shoulder of the case is not pushed back, cases last forever and no constant adjusting of the die. I also use multiple reducing washers with seating dies so you can seat different bullets without adjusting the die. I mark the washers with a sharpie and record how many are used with a particular bullet. Hope that helps.

I bump the shoulders back .004; that way they chamber easily.

One thing you don't want to do is use a case that has been fired many times and accidently load it the wrong rifle with a larger chamber. I know what you are thinking: never do it with a new case either, but older cases are brittle.

I was shooting both a 7mm STW (older cases) and a 300 RUM. I fed the STW cartridge into the 300. Upon firing the recoil was horrendous and gas flew back into face. My face was bleeding extensively and I had quite a bit of pain in my right eye. I went to the ER where I had a CAT scan or MRI; I had an unburned powder kernel in my eye.

My eye doctor examined me and noted that my contact lens (hard gas perm) had a relatively large divot in it (I had removed it but brought it in to see if it was ok). He said that contact lens could have prevented me from losing vison in my right eye.

The 7 STW case ruptured; perhaps I got powder detonation- I don't know. I know have fed the wrong case before (once I pulled out a .338 WM case and put it in my .416 while finishing off a buffalo); in both cases the case simply fireformed to the chamber with a noticeable lack of recoil.

Yes, I felt stupid. It taught me three lessons:
1. AWLAYS wear safety glasses when shooting
2. Double check what you are loading
3. Don't mix cartridges in your cartridge belt (I used to have a few .338 WMs in the last few loops)

Had a similar "event" in a 98 Mauser 7x57. Cause was a gross overload. Recoil and report was horrendous, smoke out both bottom and top of the action. Had to beat the bolt open, case head was welded to it. No damage to me or the rifle. Says a whole lot regarding the strength/safety of the 98 design.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Had a similar "event" in a 98 Mauser 7x57. Cause was a gross overload. Recoil and report was horrendous, smoke out both bottom and top of the action. Had to beat the bolt open, case head was welded to it. No damage to me or the rifle. Says a whole lot regarding the strength/safety of the 98 design.

My floorplate opened up. The rifle is safe to fire, but it was never as accurate; when I used a Stoney Point to measure the land engagement, it wouldn't engage at all. Have not really shot it since and should probably rebarrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
If the shoulder is not set back when resizing the brass (assuming a rimless bottleneck case which headspaces on the shoulder) then there will be no thinning at the pressure ring which develops just in front of the case head at the point where the case walls become thin enough that they expand to bear against the chamber walls. Loaded in this manner, the case neck will split from work-hardening (not dangerous) long before a more dangerous head separation is imminent. This assumes sustainable pressures within the parameters of the case design, of course.

This^^^^ Speaking from the school of hard knocks!

To live is to learn.

Zeke

As to whether a case head separation is dangerous -- it depends on the pressure of the load and the way the action is constructed.

Leaked gas (which also contains particles of brass from the failed case) is contained or diverted by some actions better than by others.

As 30.06king mentioned regarding his Sako suffering a head separation, the extractor was displaced, but nothing came back into his face or eyes. This is because a Sako has a bolt guide which blocks the RH lug channel, thus diverting escaping gas from coming straight back. However, if the action had been a modified Rem 700 with a cut in the bolt face to accommodate a Sako extractor the escaping gas from a head separation could send gas straight back into the shooter's face -- perhaps along with the displaced extractor -- since there is nothing blocking the rearward path of the gas.

So, a case head separation can be a minor inconvenience in some rifles and a significant physical danger in others, all depending on the design of the action.

I say it is because in a case separation, in every case I have seen or heard of, the gas is still contained and none escapes. So, the action design is irrelevant as long as the head does not split lengthwise; as it did in some ancient brass, like 100 plus years ago.
I think that most everyone who has had a case separation has seen that; no gas back into the action.
Unless it is combined with a hot load or some other factor.

I also had a similar event happen in varmint rig for a .223. I had carelessly let OAL creep longer on a batch and when firing the round did not notice anything. I had to really try to open the bolt and then, as others have said, the case head was welded to the bolt and had to be beat off.

I went back to the bench and on all reloads checked the OAL and ran many back through the die to properly seat them to the correct OAL.

This happened when I was rock chuck hunting and after this shot I noticed that I could not hit anything the rest of the day. I had switched ammo over to another loading but still I was missing way more than expected. After making the needed corrections I went out to test fire those adjusted rounds and to also check the scope settings. I found that at 100 yards I was shooting 6 inches to the right and 4 inches low. The force of that round threw off the scope that much. I tested the mounting screws prior to going out to resight and they were all OK. The rifle is still accurate today.

Lesson learned about the force a fired round can generate.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I say it is because in a case separation, in every case I have seen or heard of, the gas is still contained and none escapes. So, the action design is irrelevant as long as the head does not split lengthwise; as it did in some ancient brass, like 100 plus years ago.
I think that most everyone who has had a case separation has seen that; no gas back into the action.
Unless it is combined with a hot load or some other factor.

I would agree; back before I reduced my shoulder set back I would get case head separations very infrequently. Never even knew they happened until I tried to eject the case.

In the case of the rupture I mention above, it was split lengthwise as well as above the belt. Interestingly, the shoulder or neck didn't expand either, unlike the two other times I fed the wrong cartridge in the rifle.

If someone wants to post it, I can send a picture of the case; still have it.

When a gun blows up,
it's the load, not the case
that cause's it.

George

quote:

Originally posted by devere:
so back to my original question: danger in using a case over and over again, as I have always done. Then the question evolved rightly so into the correct way to resize to avoid case head separations. SO: is it your consensus that if one is not oversizing the case, i.e. just bumping back the shoulder maybe .002" or so, that there is minimal danger in using the case until you have neck splitting or some other case failure? But even then, I suppose that if you anneal the necks, that you could get many, many reloads with no real danger. Am I missing something?

You are correct. Some cartridges seem to go forever without case neck or shoulder cracking and will develop loose primer pockets or incipient case head separation (ring just ahead of the solid web of the case head), junking the case before any splitting occurs.

Annealing case necks and shoulders for cartridges or cases that show a propensity to cracking will prolong case life.

I regularly anneal my .404 cases and because Saeed has purchased all the barrels of the World stock of 404 cases for his 404/375 rifles and left none for me I even have to repair my cases that do occasionally split necks if I have been remiss and not annealed regularly enough. Just repaired splits in two of my valuable cases last night, these are many times used Kynoch and RWS cases which I use for shooting cast bullets now. The Kynoch cases come from firing some of my 1960's era factory ammo which out of packets of five, usually at least one will show a small split to the neck on it's first firing. These I repair using a mandrel inside the neck, a heat sink on the case body and soft silver solder (silfos) to effect the crack repair. Works well, cases anneal as normal and their life is extended. I have used my RWS cases since 1978, still have a packet of brand new factory RWS cases to start on one day.

Bloody cheapskate sure, I only do it because I can.

In my experience, the time to toss the case is when the primer pocket is so loose that that you have no tension with seating a primer.

I have heard of people doing some sort of swaging to get a pocket tight again, but I just toss those. Depending on the load, I have had some cases develop this after 2-3 reloadings- which probably means the load is a bit too warm.

I've had a few case head separations that I noticed because the next round didn't want to chamber. Those were common for me in some cheap remanufactured ammo in .223 years ago. Looking back, I suspect that they resized the case too much and gave excess headspace.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
In my experience, the time to toss the case is when the primer pocket is so loose that that you have no tension with seating a primer.

I have heard of people doing some sort of swaging to get a pocket tight again, but I just toss those. Depending on the load, I have had some cases develop this after 2-3 reloadings- which probably means the load is a bit too warm.

I've had a few case head separations that I noticed because the next round didn't want to chamber. Those were common for me in some cheap remanufactured ammo in .223 years ago. Looking back, I suspect that they resized the case too much and gave excess headspace.

Many years ago, we used to shoot metallic silhouette.

We had very few 44 Remington Magnum ammo, and used to load the same cases over and over again, at maximum charge.

The primer pockets became loose, we loaded them again, and seal them with nail varnish.

My friends used to make fun of me, asking "what color nails is your lady wearing today?"

One used to say "remind me of never to use any of Saeed's ammo. Another one answered him. If he uses it, I will uses it!"