Is this done daily without any trouble? How many of you have experience with going over the reccomended max powder charge safely? And of course I would work up in TINY increments. Its in a .308 with V-max bullets if that makes a difference

If you realy need more speed in a 30 cal. then the .308 Win is not your answer.

Stay below max.

I'll be real plain about this.

ABOVE MAX IS STUPID!

If ya need a bigger gun, buy one!!

STUPID!

Published maximum and real maximum loads are two different things. You should determine your own maximum loads by pressure signs. Rarely, but occasionally, the published maximum load may be exceeded.

On the other hand, I've had at least one gun where the load at the lower end was over maximum in that gun.

If you don't know how to judge pressure by evaluating cases, primers, group sizes, etc., you should not be exceeding published maximum loads. If you do that, you will rarely get blown up.

Also, if you try to exceed maximum loads in guns with lever actions, pump actions, semi-autos, revolvers, etc. that are weaker actions than bolt actions, you risk damage to the gun if not to yourself if you exceed maximum loads.

would someone please define "max" for us!

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Published maximum and real maximum loads are two different things. You should determine your own maximum loads by pressure signs. Rarely, but occasionally, the published maximum load may be exceeded.

On the other hand, I've had at least one gun where the load at the lower end was over maximum in that gun.

If you don't know how to judge pressure by evaluating cases, primers, group sizes, etc., you should not be exceeding published maximum loads. If you do that, you will rarely get blown up.

Also, if you try to exceed maximum loads in guns with lever actions, pump actions, semi-autos, revolvers, etc. that are weaker actions than bolt actions, you risk damage to the gun if not to yourself if you exceed maximum loads.

X2 Listen to the buckeye! roger

The danger with this thread is that it establishes published "max" data as acceptable....

FWIW I'll bet most all of us here have found published data that we couldn't achieve because we had pressure signs before reaching it!

The idea of "Max" certainly means many things to many people.....not to be the odd man out here but I'm just trying to get us on a level playing field.

To say that loading over 'Max" is stupid is certainly a correct statement.....but whose "Max" are we not going to exceed?

and yes, Grumulkin did a pretty good job of explaining in his post.

the last 100 FPS is generally 20% of the pressure -- with FEW exections, I don't load TO max, much less over.

"what are the exceptions"
257 roberts and 45 LC

In my experience, what you suggest is doable, but should be approached with caution. I would suggest miking brass and use of a chronograph for all loads in addition to paying attention to other pressure signs like primer condition and bolt lift.

Not trying to turn my 308 into my 300 wsm. My groups ive been working up to max suggest that they will shrink in size if I push it a little more...

quote:

Originally posted by trashcanman:
Is this done daily without any trouble?[quote]Hey TCM, Yes, with Proof Loads at the factories that make the rifles. The problem is a continual firing of OVER MAX Loads eventually results in Cumulative Metal Fatigue and you end up with a pile of scrap and potential injury to yourself and people nearby.

[quote]How many of you have experience with going over the reccomended max powder charge safely?

Most of us have done it at one time or another and realize it is not worth it. The results are:
1. Short Case Life.
2. Cumulative Metal Fatigue.
3. A velocity increase that is meaningless.
4. The person doing it is known as a Fool to his fellow reloaders - similar to the Fools using any non-factory tested Loads.

quote:

And of course I would work up in TINY increments.

That is always a good idea - when below a Safe Max.

quote:

Its in a .308 with V-max bullets if that makes a difference

Great cartridge and fine bullets that do not need OVER MAX to be accurate.

If you are driven by Accuracy, Fully-Prepped Weight-Sorted Cases, Match Grade Primers, the proper Powder and Match Grade Bullets are the way to go. I do that to Benchmark a new rifle to see what level of Accuracy it is actually capable of.

quote:

My groups ive been working up to max suggest that they will shrink in size if I push it a little more...

They might and then again they might not.

I'd suggest the spacific Load Development Method you have chosen is missing a few steps. If you had used, the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method you would have located one or two Harmonic Nodes(Bullet Clusters) during the shooting. And you would have known the Trick to better Accuracy at that point is to vary the Bullet Seating Depth.

Then you would not have had to gone through all the negative (and rightly so) posts you have received concerning OVER MAX.
-----

Now, if you decide none of us know what we are talking about, and continue dumping in Powder:
1. Take out a HUGE(WAY OVER MAX) Insurance Policy and include each of us as Beneficiaries.
2. Find a wide open field to continue your shooting with no people near you.
3. Dial 911, tell them to hang on and if they do not her your voice after a shot to send the Coroner.
4. And you could speed the process along by using a Faster Powder - like Blue Dot - which will insure people who know better will realize you are a complete idiot.

quote:

and yes, Grumulkin did a pretty good job of explaining in his post.

quote:

If you don't know how to judge pressure by evaluating cases, primers, group sizes , etc., you should not be exceeding published maximum loads.

So Vapodog, you agree with Grumulkin that pressure can be determined by the size of your groups? Hotcore won't even let me believe my Oehler Research strain gauge cause it's not properly standardized using SAMMI ammo and equipment. How does group size correlate with MAX or near MAX pressure? Please elaborate.

quote:

So Vapodog, you agree with Grumulkin that pressure can be determined by the size of your groups?

onefunzr2,
your reading skills are badly lacking.....no where did Grumulkin say this and no where did I agree with it.

Learn to read before you show such ignorance!

308 is rather unique is this, but it frequently groups better with loads that are hotter than hades. not a good pratice but it happens this way

trashcanman, the 308 is an extremely accurate caliber. I would suggest changing bullets. Why are you insisting on the V-max?
Peter.

yes i have 2 guns that are a little over MAX in the book, but are not over max in MY gun.. i did not do this for more speed. i did it because i get better accurace. both are 1 grain over. one is a 7MM-08 with 44 grs of RL-15 with 140s.. the other is my .260 with 42 grs of RL-15 with 120s. i have NO pressure signs at all.. i also load for a 280,.. max load in it is 57 grs of RL-19 that is to hot for my gun.. flattens primers, so who to say where max is in your firearm

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
If you don't know how to judge pressure by evaluating cases, primers, group sizes, etc., you should not be exceeding published maximum loads.

I copied this quote from his post verbatim. If he didn't say cases, primers and group sizes are a way to evaluate pressure, what did he say? I'm not asking you to put words in his mouth, just explain in what way you agreed that he did a pretty good job of explaining his post.

You said it, now defend it.

Group size is just one of the pressure signs and is fairly worthless unless you are shooting a gun with good accuracy. When you start at the lower end of the load range and work up, typically the groups will get smaller to a point and then start getting bigger again. When the groups start getting bigger, it's a sign that maximum pressure is being quickly approached. Many times there will also be a marked change in bullet impact points as well.

The load given in the Nosler manual for 168 gr. bullets for the 308 Winchester starts at 40.5 grains and goes up to a maximum of 44.5 grains. You will notice that the target was shot with a load of 40.0 grains which happens to be near maximum with this gun. At 41.5 grains, there was marked primer cratering and case extraction is very difficult. This is a perfect illustration of how published maximum loads don't necessarily always coincide with the maximum load for a particular gun.

The use of CCI 250 primers, by the way, improved accuracy but didn't have a noticeable effect on pressure. The loads with the sticky primers utilized Federal 210M primers.

having all my guns built on mausers, i've never had one not show pressure before published max charge, that said, i've also never had a deer ask me if my loads were at max or not either!.

Above max is not for stupid people, but stupid people don't know they are stupid, and think everyone should have their limitations.

Here at AR we have more posters smart enough to go over max and know what they are doing.

308 is registered at 60,000 psi.
The 1889 Mauser 7.65x53mm case head with a large Boxer primer is good to ~62,000 psi and have long brass life without the primer pocket getting loose.

The 223, OTOH, is registered at 55,000 psi, and can be used at 75,000 psi and not get loose primer pockets. The brass grows faster with standard chambers and standard brass, but with Lee Collet dies, the growth can be .0005" per firing, and make ~20 uses between trimming.

The 6mmBR, OHOH, can go much higher in pressure than the 223 with a Mauser case head, but with a small rifle primer pocket. This makes the case head much stronger, and instead of a loose primer pocket, the limit is piercing the small rifle magnum primer. If the firing pin is bushed, very high pressure can be used.

Back on 308:
The load books are loose as a goose.
The brass varies.
You don't know what you have.
By the time you work up a to the threshold of short brass life and back off a safety margin ala Vernon Speer 1956, you will be very close to the book loads in the Sierra Manual.

Here is me overloading a 308:

quote:

My test:
Pacific .308 Win reamer, VZ24 trued action, A&B fluted stainless 24" F54
barrel, H335, CCI200 primer, 2.9" OAL, Speer 168 gr. HPBT Gold Match,
brass: Win308Win:

0) 42 gr. QL= 2565 fps & 46 kpsi, 0% overload, did not load 42 gr [the Hodgdon published max load]
1) 43 gr. QL= 2618 fps & 49 kpsi, 2% overload, ok
2) 44 gr. QL= 2670 fps & 52 kpsi, 5% overload, cratered primer this and higher
3) 45 gr. QL= 2722 fps & 56 kpsi, 7% overload
4) 46 gr. QL= 2774 fps & 60 kpsi, 10% overload
5) 47 gr. QL= 2825 fps & 64 kpsi, 12% overload
6) 48 gr. QL= 2875 fps & 68 kpsi, 14% overload, mark on brass from bolt face extractor this and higher,
7) 49 gr. QL= 2925 fps & 73 kpsi, 17% overload
8) 50 gr. QL= 2974 fps & 78 kpsi, 19% overload, extractor cut on brass expands .0020"
9) 51 gr. QL= 3024 fps & 84 kpsi, 21% overload, extractor cut on brass expands .0020"
10) 52 gr. QL= 3073 fps & 90 kpsi, 24% overload, extractor cut on brass expands .0110", primer fell out

What does it all mean?
The reason I can go large % extra powder if the SAAMI registered pressure is small % close to the real limit is because published loads are often a bunch of hooey.
Don't think that just because I can put 10 gr more than max load in a 308 that it is a useful load. That work up went that high just to see what would happen.

Often, what is quoted as max is not the point beyond which will bring you smoking shards of steel protruding from your head; but rather, what is published as maximum is a matter of diminishing returns: The point at which adding powder increases velocity such an insignificant amount as to be worthless.
This is why a Chrony tells you much more than how fast your bullets are going.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

By Grumulkin:
If you don't know how to judge pressure by evaluating cases, primers, group sizes , etc., you should not be exceeding published maximum loads.

Those of you who are regulars know that I'm always interested in anything "new" that is being used. Must admit that my cloase and personal good-buddy "Dave" caught something that I missed(and I suspect Vapo mis-read(we all know his reading skills are badly lacking ), but he said he did not agree with that concept, so I can believe it.

So you can put me in with the bunch of folks that want to hear how "Group Size" tells what the Pressure is. And be prepared for a thorough discussion. Should be interesting with Dave and me interested in the same thing.

How do you do that Grumulkin? And did you learn this from denton, seafire or larry?????

quote:

Whammed in by Dave:
Hotcore won't even let me believe my Oehler Research strain gauge cause it's not properly standardized using SAMMI ammo and equipment.

Nor that obummer is doing a fine j-o-b! Reference: Stock Market

quote:

Whammed in by Dave:
How does group size correlate with MAX or near MAX pressure? Please elaborate.

Thanks for the catch Dave, you really have my interest up - and I'll bet Vapo will be interested too(if he ever gets someone to read it and explain it to him )

quote:

How do you do that Grumulkin? And did you learn this from denton, seafire or larry?????

How do I do what? Whatever it is you are referring wasn't learned from denton, seafire or larry.

After you have loaded various loads for a couple dozen cartridges, eventually things start coming together. Things like, group sizes opening up and extraction then getting sticky, etc.

I thought EVERYONE knew that each powder has an optimal operating pressure. If the pressure is too low, groups are many times large, primers protrude and there is a lot of powder fouling in the barrel. Pressure optimal and little powder residue, optimum group sizes, etc. Pressure too high and marked widening of groups followed by sticky extraction, primer leaks, primer cratering, etc.

I had never dreamed that this was so hard to understand.

trash - perhaps try a different powder?

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
...How do I do what?

How do you determine what the Pressure is from looking at a Group Size?

Must admit I'm real close to throwing the old flag.

quote:

After you have loaded various loads for a couple dozen cartridges, eventually things start coming together. Things like, group sizes opening up and extraction then getting sticky, etc.

Yes group sizes will expand and they can also contract. It depends on where the Bullet exits the muzzle in relation to the Harmonic Node. But the group size does not indicate the Pressure.

quote:

I thought EVERYONE knew that each powder has an optimal operating pressure. If the pressure is too low, groups are many times large, primers protrude and there is a lot of powder fouling in the barrel.

I can agree with the fouling at low Pressure and Primers Protrude if the Case has not been Fire Formed properly at low Pressure.

quote:

Pressure optimal and little powder residue, optimum group sizes, etc. Pressure too high and marked widening of groups followed by sticky extraction, primer leaks, primer cratering, etc.

I'll disagree with the highlighted portions. The premise is faulty. Some of the smallest groups I've shot are at low Pressure, some mid-range and some near a Safe MAX. Just depends on how consistant the progressive burn happens to be in conjunction with when the Bullet makes Exit in relation to the Harmonic Node.

quote:

I had never dreamed that this was so hard to understand.

It is hard to understand because group size does not tell what the Pressure is. However, I can see how a person with a bit of Reloading experience could draw a wrong conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by trashcanman:
Is this done daily without any trouble? How many of you have experience with going over the reccomended max powder charge safely? And of course I would work up in TINY increments. Its in a .308 with V-max bullets if that makes a difference

Bob Hagel once said "what may prove to be a maximum load in one rifle may be quite mild in another one, and vice-versa."

Book maximums are maximum in the rifle in which they were developed. Your rifle might stand considerably more, or it might not! You must develop the load in the rifle you plan to use it in.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
Above max is not for stupid people, but stupid people don't know they are stupid, and think everyone should have their limitations.

Here at AR we have more posters smart enough to go over max and know what they are doing.

308 is registered at 60,000 psi.
The 1889 Mauser 7.65x53mm case head with a large Boxer primer is good to ~62,000 psi and have long brass life without the primer pocket getting loose.

The 223, OTOH, is registered at 55,000 psi, and can be used at 75,000 psi and not get loose primer pockets. The brass grows faster with standard chambers and standard brass, but with Lee Collet dies, the growth can be .0005" per firing, and make ~20 uses between trimming.

The 6mmBR, OHOH, can go much higher in pressure than the 223 with a Mauser case head, but with a small rifle primer pocket. This makes the case head much stronger, and instead of a loose primer pocket, the limit is piercing the small rifle magnum primer. If the firing pin is bushed, very high pressure can be used.

Back on 308:
The load books are loose as a goose.
The brass varies.
You don't know what you have.
By the time you work up a to the threshold of short brass life and back off a safety margin ala Vernon Speer 1956, you will be very close to the book loads in the Sierra Manual.

Here is me overloading a 308:

quote:

My test:
Pacific .308 Win reamer, VZ24 trued action, A&B fluted stainless 24" F54
barrel, H335, CCI200 primer, 2.9" OAL, Speer 168 gr. HPBT Gold Match,
brass: Win308Win:

0) 42 gr. QL= 2565 fps & 46 kpsi, 0% overload, did not load 42 gr [the Hodgdon published max load]
1) 43 gr. QL= 2618 fps & 49 kpsi, 2% overload, ok
2) 44 gr. QL= 2670 fps & 52 kpsi, 5% overload, cratered primer this and higher
3) 45 gr. QL= 2722 fps & 56 kpsi, 7% overload
4) 46 gr. QL= 2774 fps & 60 kpsi, 10% overload
5) 47 gr. QL= 2825 fps & 64 kpsi, 12% overload
6) 48 gr. QL= 2875 fps & 68 kpsi, 14% overload, mark on brass from bolt face extractor this and higher,
7) 49 gr. QL= 2925 fps & 73 kpsi, 17% overload
8) 50 gr. QL= 2974 fps & 78 kpsi, 19% overload, extractor cut on brass expands .0020"
9) 51 gr. QL= 3024 fps & 84 kpsi, 21% overload, extractor cut on brass expands .0020"
10) 52 gr. QL= 3073 fps & 90 kpsi, 24% overload, extractor cut on brass expands .0110", primer fell out

What does it all mean?
The reason I can go large % extra powder if the SAAMI registered pressure is small % close to the real limit is because published loads are often a bunch of hooey.
Don't think that just because I can put 10 gr more than max load in a 308 that it is a useful load. That work up went that high just to see what would happen.

I find it very interesting that no one is wanting to touch this post..

All a person has to do is check max loads in several different manuals to see that there are different factors at play in determining max loads.
Bullet construction is one, make of brass is another, when your gun was manufactured is still another.

I rarely answer many post here… just because there are so many smart, experienced, articulate people here I often feel outclassed. That said… IMO When you work up loads you should use a chronograph while approaching MAX loads and do not exceed max loads.
I will stop no later than; when my Vels & published vels are equal or I have reach published Max . I may stop sooner depending on whether or not I found a load I am happy with.
A few feet per second is not the most important thing about a load… safety is.
Most of us do not have the ability to measure pressure first hand.

We extrapolate pressure from velocity or from Pressure signs, which only tell us when we have exceeded a safe pressure... but not by how much.

If you need more speed than your cartridge can safely deliver… get a bigger cartridge.

quote:

It is hard to understand because group size does not tell what the Pressure is. However, I can see how a person with a bit of Reloading experience could draw a wrong conclusion.

Of course group size doesn't tell what the pressure is; it's just one of the several indirect signs of pressure to look at.

By the way, velocity doesn't tell what the pressure is either but that was discussed ad nauseam in a thread several months ago so there is no need to repeat all that here.

I've done it before a lot ....

but using my head, why do you really need to go over max for anyway...

for an extra 100 fps, all you have to do is turn your scope up a click or two for elevation and your point of impact is there...

and you don't gain anything in terminal performance...and you gain about 5 ft in point blank range...

of course if I need a bigger caliber.. I have one of those in the gun safe anyway...

As several have pointed out,the max loads listed in manuals are using the data from the test barrel, in their test facility at their elevation and atmospheric conditions, using a particular lot of powder, primers, bullets, and cases. Once you change any or all of this you will have variations in pressure and velocity.

Working with a wildcat, with data provided by the builder, I found that I had almost a 5gr difference in the load I could work up to, compared to what his standard load was, and had been safely tested in my rifle in his location. This was due to him being several thousand feet above sea level, with atmospheric pressures and humidity running lower than what we have here along the coast. I used powder from the same lot as he, as well as bullets from the same lot as well. The cases and primers were the same brand, only different lots.

In another situation, I worked up a load using book listed data. Compiled from several manuals, I noted min and max loads for the chosen powder, threw and weighed them out using my Uniflow, noted the settings and headed to the range. I worked up loads from the data I had listed until I hit an extremely tight group. From the data I had listed for that powder I was about 1.5grs below max, showing nothing what so ever of pressure signs. The next week I headed back out with the chrono to zero the load and work up a drop table. Finding the first thru 5th shot showing close to 600fps lower than what it should have been, I was scratching my head. A second rifle with verified loads was shot and velocities were dead on for the load for that rifle, and I knew the chrono was not the issue. All reviewed data showed the particular powder to be optimal for producing top velocities within the load range I was using, and what should have been upper 2800 to 2900fps loads were running only mid 2200's. So after consulting with several folks the decision was made to work on up until something showed signs of pressure, or until I hit the velocity range somewhat in the area it should be, for that particular combination.

Before doing so however the rifle was checked with several other powders, both faster and slower than the one being used and the data was identical. So off to the races we went. As the load was increased in 2/10 increments, the groups opened up from dime sized to baseball sized and then back to dime sized as I reached the 2800fps range. The load ended up being close to 3grs over published max in any book, but still the cases, nor primers, showed no signs of excessive pressure. In fact side by side comparisons showed hardly any differences at all, other than when using a magnifying glass the primers were more squared similar to factory loaded cases.

In loading for many calibers and many different rifles through the years, I have gone some over published data, and some have not made it to the top end loads before hitting flattened primers, or cases showing pressure signs. I have for the most part used one brand of primers exclusively through the years for all work ups and have learned what to look for when the pressure starts to climb above the point it needs to be.

Another issue has to do with the gun and how it is chambered, how the barrel is bored, twist rate, and what type action it has. Tight chambers and differences in throating will change results. Slower twist rates will allow somewhat higher loads with less pressure than fast rate, even with same weight bullets. Some bores are tighter and some are looser, which also plays a part in the general pressures and loads which can be used. The action can be an older one which was built for lower pressure calibers, or it can be a custom one which was built from the start for higher pressures than normal book loads. With this said the vast majority of all combined are generally designed to work within the 45 - 65K psi range and should be used accordingly, even if they all have some added safety factor built in.

My bottom line is to look for the most efficient powder range for the particular load combination I am wanting to use. Work up the load range until I see what the particular rifle will allow with those particular combination's, Sometimes it is near max listed loads, sometimes it's higher, sometimes it's lower. Once this data has been established for that particular rifle, I work on the accuracy of the best overall combination. The velocity has little to do with most of my loads, as long as it is somewhat close to the range it should be for the final combination I choose, or unless it is for a specific purpose.