We recently had a post about spotting Bullet Holes in a Target at a longer distances. Woods devised a home-made Shoot-N-See Target that he mentioned in another thread(maybe on Small Bores). And Flippy looked at what he had done, revised it slightly, reduced the steps to make the Target and also created a great relatively inexpensive Target for l-o-n-g distance shooting. Both of their Targets allow you to see the Point-Of-Impact way out yonder.(I do not know which thread it was.)

Then I had a young fellow mention seeing the holes in the Target(s) as he was Developing Loads. As I was responding, I got to thinking, I'm not sure that actually being able to see the Holes is a good thing - while you are Developing Loads.

If the holes are real close together, then it puts pressure on the shooter not to blow the group. If the group is more of a pattern, then the shooter tends to hurry through the remaining shots which does not help a group at all.
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So, which is the "Best" - to see or not to see - the POIs during Load Development?

If I'm shooting a five shot group and the first three are at 3" and I'm sure I didn't pull any of them then obviously the next two are irrelevant. It's back to the drawing board!

If I see the first three are a little cloverleaf 3/8" group, then I stop shooting and get on the internet and brag like hell!

I want to see them!

To see is best. I approach load development as a core activity looking for all the signs of a consistent sustainable load starting with uniform brass preparation and using a chronograph. Mentally I am focused on "load development". I switch mental gears to the core activity of marksmanship in the next step in the process.

seeing big ol splatter marks on the target makes me think i have a huge group,
it's also kind of distracting to see a huge green splotch.

I always try to track the shots, in the order fired, to see if perhaps the barrel is walking the shots in a predictable manner as it heats. I once had a Win 70 375 H&H that would always put the first shot about 1/2 MOA below the rest of the group...
Regards, Joe

spray paint HARD paper plates with gloss finish white...
let dry a good while
squirt wd 40 on them, or any other oil.. just a LIGHT coating..

spray paint black...

it worked for BB guns, don't know how it would work with bigger guns

Paint a piece of cardboard (the same size as the target) with flurescent orange and mount it about a foot behind the target. the holes in the black target (you can hit the black right?) will "glow" when viewed through the scope.

Hey HC, here is the thread you were talking about.

IMO it is important to be able to see what is going on when shooting long distance in order to make adjustments or save loads when you are shooting where you want.



It is very disrupting to a good shooting session to have to wait for a cease fire to go down and look at the target and then wonder which shot is which.

The Shoot-N-C's work out to 300 yards (if you have a good scope and not a Loop-old )



but they do not work well at 400 yds+. The targets I make make a bigger splash



and I have seen bullet holes at 600 yards.

Seems it would be indispensable in one of your favorite tests, the Audette at 300 yards.

Hey Woods,Thanks for that link. And I appreciate all the responses.

Over the years I've shot where I could see the Holes and where I could not see the Holes. I'm leaning toward "not seeing the Holes" provided better data for me, but I do not mean that to be argumentative.

I can understand those of you who like to see the POIs for immediate feed-back about a Load.

The only real problem I had when not seeing the POIs was knowing I was actually on the Target. So, I'd have some Spotter Loads to get going with, get on the Target, change Targets and run the Tests.

Does/did require a bit of walking but that was OK too.

I shoot long range competition--like the recent 600 Yard NBRSA Nationals in Sacramento--and am indebted to you for bringing up this technique.

Too many times in load development at 600 yards my groups have been off the board.

I can sometimes see 6.5mm bullet holes with my best scope--in perfect conditions--but the 6mm holes are hard to see with even a spotting scope.

Nice contribution, woods.

flaco

Hey Jeffe, That is along the same idea. Thanks for including it.
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Hey flaco, Alright now, how did you do?

I can see the holes during load development even at 300 yards, and I'm with Vapo; if the group sucks and you know it's not you, you can just stop and go back to the drawing board without wasting components and time running back and forth to the target.

Lately, my new RCBS collet bullet puller has been getting a work out...............unfortunately.

Actually, Hot Core, I've been shooting monthly club 600 yard matches for almost a year.

I work in a target rifle shop, so hardware isn't an issue.

Our client list reads like a "Who's Who" of target shooting.

But Sacramento was my first sanctioned match.

My most accurate rifle, 6.5x47L, capable of a five shot 1.8" 600 yard group, had issues.

I expect I tried to extract a hot cartridge, and left powder grains in the the chamber.

Anyway, I had dented cases.

On the shoulder.

I did not complete the Heavy Gun--mine, 17.5 lbs-- course of fire.

My Light Gun, 6x47L, did okay.

It's never shot very tight groups--typically 2.5" at 600 yards--but I managed to bring home the trophy for 4th Place, Score, for Six Targets, which is to say all three days.

I can only say I didn't farm any targets, although I shot some ugly groups.

Conditions were described as "Tough" by all the veterans, and more than a few had shots blown off the target.

There were 47 competitors, and as befits a National Championship, about 35 of the best shooters in the nation.

Overall, the guys who were expected to win, won.

I feel that I was very lucky, but... also did a pretty good job of reading the wind flags, and, to answer your question "To see or not to see?" if small groups make you nervous, you need more trigger time.

Which is to say that if you shoot enough, it all becomes second nature.

Did I say I had a blast?

flaco

N.B. My boss, who graduated from Trinidad in 1958, knows everyone in target shooting, and shot on the US Veterans Palma team, says it's worth it to go to the match even if you don't shoot.

Because you'll learn so much.

Moi? If I'm gonna go, I'm gonna shoot.

Edited to add: If my Light Gun isn't accurate, it's because I hadn't had time to find a load it likes.

And that's flaco on the left.

Hey Flaco, Really enjoyed your post.

quote:

Also understand your comment about:
... if small groups make you nervous, you need more trigger time.

No doubt at all that "I" need more Trigger Time than what I'm currently getting. So, I feel sure a real good group would get my heartbeat up.
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Had a buddy send me a box of Gun Rags because he knew I wasn't bothering to read them. In one of them was an article about the 6.5x47L. As I read through it, it seemed like the biggest differences between it and a 260Rem were:
1. The Small Primer Pocket.
2. A couple of Grains different in Case Volume.
3. Shoulder angle.
4. Neck length.

After I read it, I was wondering "why" anyone would chamber for it rather than the 260Rem?

If you have a chance, I'd appreciate it if you would educate me on "why".
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You also mentioned "Overall, the guys who were expected to win, won." Do you think they read the Wind better, or what would you attribute their higher scores to?
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Not trying to put you on the spot, just curious.

this whole post assumes that hot core is actually able to see

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
this whole post assumes that hot core is actually able to see

Hey Pilgrim, No fair looking at my Targets because most are misleading. I spread the shots out on purpose.

Well, Hot Core-

That's a can of worms.

Choice of chambering?

I'm won't debate with you, but will suggest that I'm partial to some inside information. In this case, we had built a 6.5x47 Lapua for a customer, and he was shooting tiny groups.

Enough, I think, to base choice on.

Then there's Lapua brass. I'd guess many--probably most--long range benchrest guys prefer Lapua brass.

For me, recoil is an issue. In our monthly 600 yard club matches, a combination of paper targets and silhouettes, we shoot upward of 80 rounds.

Mainly, though, I'm an empirical guy, and I knew we had a Bartlein barrel like the one we had used on our customer's rifle, so I knew I had a good chance of ending up with a accurate gun.

Did I say this rifle took the annual smallest 600 yard group trophy for our club last year?

flaco

As a sidebar, when Lapua introduced this chambering a couple of three years back, most of the accuracy nuts rushed to neck it down to 6x47. These have been reasonably successful.

But the idea of shooting the original chambering in long range matches hadn't really been explored.

It turns out to be a great round in its own right.

For those who remember woods' post on jumping bullets, and no turn necks, at Sacramento I pulled targets for Jerry Tierney, who not only won the event last year, but also is on the leading edge of loose chamber neck, tight throat, bullet jump development.

As to why those who were expected to win won, it would take a braver man than I to hazard a guess.

Before the safety meeting the first morning, I introduced myself to a guy who turned out to be Bob Hoppe.

The guy next to me said "Watch out, he shoots tight groups." And he did.

At 600 yards, Hot Core, everything counts. There's no margin of error.

But... if you want to learn about reloading, there's no better group to hang out with.

Thanks Flaco, I appreciate your thoughts.

Best of luck on future Matches.