quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:


I'll err on the side of millions of dollars of R&D and just shoot a suitable caliber loaded properly and conventionally.

I suppose that would be the safe & sound decision for you. And as long as you don't try to cram it down my throat like Hotbore, I have no problem at all with you only using the exact listed components in Alliant's recipes, or other published recipes. 'Dirty' Harry Callahan once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." Now we know what one of yours is.

Other folks are a bit more adventuresome and think outside of the box. [I tend to think of it as the nature of this hobby.] I started out 39 years ago following each recipe to the letter and taking every word of every load manual as the gospel. My hobby evolved over the years where I feel comfortable using BlueDot reduced loads, Ackley Improved chamberings and even the radical straight pull actioned Blaser R93 rifle. Not to mention checking chamber pressures with a strain gauge glued to some barrels. No balls, no blue chips.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:


I'll err on the side of millions of dollars of R&D and just shoot a suitable caliber loaded properly and conventionally.

I suppose that would be the safe & sound decision for you. And as long as you don't try to cram it down my throat like Hotbore, I have no problem at all with you only using the exact listed components in Alliant's recipes, or other published recipes. 'Dirty' Harry Callahan once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." Now we know what one of yours is.

Other folks are a bit more adventuresome and think outside of the box. [I tend to think of it as the nature of this hobby.] I started out 39 years ago following each recipe to the letter and taking every word of every load manual as the gospel. My hobby evolved over the years where I feel comfortable using BlueDot reduced loads, Ackley Improved chamberings and even the radical straight pull actioned Blaser R93 rifle. Not to mention checking chamber pressures with a strain gauge glued to some barrels. No balls, no blue chips.

My Dad often said "it is Always better to be lucky than good" --- hope yours holds.

RC:

Did you bother to ask, Ol Ben, about using Bullseye in pistol cases, as I suggested to you in an earlier post. What is his answer to all the people who have gotten "Into Trouble" using Bullseye. Also, there have been a lot more firearms, "blown up" with Bullseye, than Blue Dot in rifles. Just for the sake of argument you know, and a real smart guy like you ought to be able to come up with something "safe" for the rest of us!
Ben, the ballistician from Alliant Powder Co. just returned my call.

I left a message yesterday with the question about the use of Bluedot in .223 Remington "reduced" loads.

He told me that the company has developed no data for the use of Bluedot in this application.

He told me that since it is a very fast burning powder that he cannot recommend its use in this application. He went on to state that "it would be very easy to get into trouble. ".


Jerry

Maybe the next misshap will be with Trail Boss?? roger

If we only had some actual "mishap pictures" of Blue Dot blown up firearms, maybe we could put this to rest. Then we could call all the naysayers right!!! Blown Up Firearms With Blue Dot!

Jerry

I don't post a lot but have been loading for at least the last twenty years. I have used a number of reduced velocity and
reduced powder loads. I always check for pressure signs and keep a clean barrel. I have used BD in my 223 will no ill affects
and have been using Unique in reduced 30-30 lead bullet loads also for some time also. I would be interested in seeing pictures and detailed loading practices of such load.
You always hear that some friend of a friend"s cousin's husband across the country blew a action with such and such load loaded on laboratory
grade equipment, but no body knows, who, where or why. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and mishaps and knows the consequences.
I just don't load for others and if they do a load I use so be it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
RC:

Did you bother to ask, Ol Ben, about using Bullseye in pistol cases, as I suggested to you in an earlier post. What is his answer to all the people who have gotten "Into Trouble" using Bullseye.
Jerry

If the thread was about the use of Bullseye in an application that was not recommended, I would have asked him.

I got the number for you so you can call him and tell us all what he says: 1-800-276-9337

No interest in calling him. I have been doing this long enough to know, what will be a problem, and what won't. Lets don't get into the attorney crap about subject matter, as what we are realling talking about is, and according to you and Ben, folks getting into trouble real easy with fast powders. Check it out! Also, try it you may like it, if you are a responsible reloader.

This is better than a soap opera. I just had to say this is still the most entertaining waste of time on the board. If you want to shoot a powder in a shell do it. Personally I still think that if you want reduced recoil you have a choice of rimfire or pistol caliber rifle.

one would think that in the interests of safety; Ben Amonte would do the tests required with Blue Dot and make them public.
I don't understand why Not test Blue Dot.
I load .223 with 50 grain cast bullets and refer to Lyman's cast bullet handbook, third edition.
I regularly load 9 grains of Green Dot and according to Hodgdons relative burn rate, that powder is # 17 on the chart.; that's fast.
Blue Dot is # 49 on the chart.... even Red Dot is # 8 on the chart and Lyman's Red Dot chart is 9.2 ( max. ) for a 41 gr. cast bullet.

Am I missing something here?

ATK has already said what they think. They do not recommend Blue Dot because of how it reacts as load density and pressure changes. That is "in the interest of safety" from the manufacturer. I have no doubt that the Blue Dot Loads work but why not buy a gun that works the way you want it to? If you want .22 Hornet or .22 WRM velocities it would be less expensive to buy one in the first place.

Some of us don't have the luxury of going out and buying yet another rifle to fill a small niche because of inflated costs and potentially months of waiting for licenses to be changed so a new calibre can be acquired. That is why I use blue dot in a number of calibres - versatility mainly and cost effectiveness as a by-product.

quote:

Sam's Signiture: A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work.

Unless the bad day you have is a Blue Dot Mishap

quote:

Originally posted by Alta.Separatist:
one would think that in the interests of safety; Ben Amonte would do the tests required with Blue Dot and make them public.
I don't understand why Not test Blue Dot.
I load .223 with 50 grain cast bullets and refer to Lyman's cast bullet handbook, third edition.
I regularly load 9 grains of Green Dot and according to Hodgdons relative burn rate, that powder is # 17 on the chart.; that's fast.
Blue Dot is # 49 on the chart.... even Red Dot is # 8 on the chart and Lyman's Red Dot chart is 9.2 ( max. ) for a 41 gr. cast bullet.

Am I missing something here?

I've also talked to Ben Ammonette on the subject multiple times...Contrary to what the Chicken Little Crowd here claims.. our conversations have gone differently then what theirs did....

Ben asked if I would be willing to share some of my load data with him.... which I happily did..

he indicated that he needed to put testing it on his 'to do' list...but also clarified his 'to do' list was pretty long...

what a lot of folks on the forums don't seem to look at, is this subject from the factories perspective...

Item number one is expense...It is spendy doing all this testing..

secondly, how will the data effect sales of the product? will it increase sales of it or not?

thirdly, is that the direction the factory wants to go? do they really want users, using LESS powder? at the same time increasing the chances that the idiots in the handloading community will mess up, and then try to sue the factory for their individual screw up?

these are all business decisions that a business is going to have to look at...

Long ago, the factory actually did test and distribute info on Blue Dot being used in the 22 Hornet and the 221 Fireball, that were coming out for use in new single shot TC and Remington XP 100 pistols.... however that was a different climate in the legal world at that time in regards to the firearm industry...

much of the info done with faster powders with cast bullets was done by Lyman as they were in the cast bullet market and saw a niche, and thought it was worth their while to develop data using faster powders... not for selling powder... but for selling Cast Bullet Products..

Alliant is in the powder market, NOT the cast bullet market...it isn't in their financial interest to convince people to use LESS powder..

data Alliant has over using such powder as Unique in rifles, is data that was developed and tested many many years ago... decades...

nothing has been done currently...

and why was it done decades ago and not now???

because back then, folks still looked at things economically as not all of America was as financially well off as compared to today..

snd there were still a lot of folks who were using rifles originally designed for use with black powder...Unique filled the niche.. so there was still a market in existence at that time...

that market is much smaller now.. and sue happy legal environment exists now, that didn't exist many decades ago...

Blue Dots use with cast bullets also falls into the problem, that with blue dot, you can push a bullet faster than many cast bullets perform best at...and give the best accuracy...

and finally as Ben Ammonette also admitted, and any factory ballistician will tell you.... there are hundreds and hundreds of bullet, powder and cartridge combinations that are possible out there...The Factories don't have the time, or the money to embrace the expense of testing them all.. and from marketing ability ( or return on investment) it is not necessarily worth their time to do so...

if it was worth their time ( read profitability) then they would test it...

but Alliant is selling more than enough Blue Dot to meet their projections to the Shot Gun and Pistol reloading markets..... working up data for rifle cartridges is contrary to what the marketing people are going to want to hear...

they'd rather have you put 60 grains of RL 22 in your 06 cases, than 25 grains of Blue Dot...
the more powder you burn, the more powder you use, and the more powder you buy!.. plus the more slow powder you use, the less chances you have of hurting yourself by screwing up...( like double charging)... so why would the factory want to go and test something like Blue Dot or any other faster powder in a rifle for???

they have no incentive to do so..

I've spent years in sales and marketing.. that is why their perspective is so easy for me to understand and see from their view point...

so if the desire exists to use Blue Dot in a rifle cartridges and guys like me can see advantages for it from MY PERSPECTIVE and my benefits, then I have to work and develop it on my own...

I also have to develop safe parameters and procedures on my own...

those are risks I take as a handloader, yet feel competent enough in my abilities and understandings, that I know it is not a problem.. and if it becomes a problem then I have no one to blame but myself...

so I did so...

then I was willing to share with my fellow forum members here.. never asked for any profit to come of it...

but then come along guys who tell others not to do it.. because if it isn't in a book, then it isn 't safe...

most of those haven't tried it oersonally.. and secondly they ignore the fact there are certain risk factors we embrace being handloaders in the first place...

some one who isn't paying attention, can double charge a case with any faster burning powder... the problem lies when the double charge doesn't overflow the case, so they don't know it...

however gang, on the other hand, someone not paying attention can also just as easily put in a half charge of a slow burning powder, say like 4831... and there is tons of info out there warning of the potential danger of high pressures resulting from that...

as far as I am concerned, paying attention and know what you are doing are essential to safe handloading...

to the moron who isn't, I see no less chance of either way, of double charging a fast powder in a case, or half charging a slow powder...

either way, there are tons of info starting that high pressure problems await...

but the naythesayers are always standing on a soap box and criticizing how it is easy to do one.. yet they are smart enough to not do the other...

the difference is, I know what I put into a case... and if I make a mistake, then I as a handloader embrace the problem.. and not try to pass blame on someone or some other entity and try to want to get compensation from someone else..

so there is my take on it...

I am sure it will follow with the naythesayers and the chicken littles having many a contrary opinions per usual...

but if someone has followed this Blue Dot in rifle cartridges debate as it has seesawed back and forth over the years... they will notice the pattern, that many many users have loaded 100s of thousands of rounds and have experience zero mishaps...

we have had a few mess ups ( very few) and the one big kaboom the user admitted to doing a double charge, because he got distracted...( that proving he was a decent guy, admitting his own mistake instead of trying to blame others)..

the other pattern that one will notice who ever has followed all this.. the number of those in the naythesayer crowd are few, but they are very vocal...they will go one for pages and pages... arguing against hands on experience, with many many years of 'theory' and reading opinions of others...

plus they just know better and try to justify that, because the 'factory has never tested it!'

so I addressed the reasons why...

reasons that any company is going to look at...
bottom line, what is the cost of testing, vs the profit potential...

and from that perspective, Alliant has no reason to be motivated to test Blue Dot in rifle cases... it is cheaper to just say they don't recommend it, and highlight that when some moron wants to sue them, because he screwed up..

that is pretty straight forward for anyone who has ever been involved in the business world...

making the world safe for idiots.. well that is the government's self appointed job... and they don't want you reloading your own ammo.. they don't even want you to own a gun, much less ammo to shoot in it..they are too afraid you might be tempted to use it on them...

Very well put Seafire.

Having followed the debate for some time and after some very imformative PM's I have applied my usual care in reloading and worked toward a good short range load for my 20 VarTarg. My reasoning was that while I have a very good load for the 35gn Berger at 3735fps that reaches out where the rabbits are, we often see them in under 200 so a good short range load with cheaper components ( BD and the 34gn Nosler shots) is a welcome addition to the outing. As I have a supressor on the rifle this makes the shot so much less likley to spook the other rabbits as a full power load might. Have found a good compromise between velocity and accuracy with 9gn giving me a 2750 and a .674 for 5 shots. Aiming point is the first mil dot down from center so easy to go from one load to the other.

Von Gruff.

Wow - been away from this site for a long time and can't believe this debate is still going on.

I have used Seafire's recipes for BD in the 7RM, .243 and .223RM with great results. Load with extreme care so as not to double charge and watch for pressure signs. Stopped loading for the .223 because it does not cycle the bolt in the mini-14 but otherwise was a great round.

Started my 2 young boys off as pre-teens with these BD rounds in the above calibers so they could learn proper shooting techniques without concern for recoil. They now hunt with full power loads but still love to practice target shooting to 300yds. with the BD loads. They are inexpensive, accurate and easy on the shooter for all-day shooting. Builds proper technique and confidence for the long shots. They are now just 16 and 13.

Know the risks and take precautions. Same could be said about sex - don't need 2 AHs preaching abstinence if I want to indulge.

MIND YOUR OWN G-D DAMNED BUSINESS ALREADY.

Aero...

good to see you dropping by...

yeah this is still going on..

Hot Core is the EverReady Bunny of the Anti Blue Dot Campaign...

that won't stop until he dies, I die, or they quit distributing blue dot... or Saeed closes down this site.. and Hot Core doesn't move to another site.....

cheers

After discussing this with a few people who are friends of mine in the industry. There will never be any published data for reduced Blue Dot Loads by any of the big 3 Bullet Manufacturers, the Manufacturer of the propellant because of one issue. There have been documented cases in the past and we all know this that people have been hurt using pistol powder in large capacity cases. Every Stake Holder mentioned has to worry about profit and Lawsuits are not conducive to that. People who have blown themselves up using your data have fathers, mothers, and children etc who will be getting many $$$$$$$.

Squeal all you want and call all the people you want begging and pleading however, it is going to be to no avail period. If you like to load BD then do so at your own risk. Contrary to what many here feel there is a known danger.

Just remember "when if's and buts’ are candies and nuts we will all have a Merry Christmas"

One of my friends had to shut down the discussion forums on their website because people were discussing very openly loading, modification of the rifles etc on the company website. Just an example..

quote:

One of my friends had to shut down the discussion forums on their website because people were discussing very openly loading, modification of the rifles etc on the company website. Just an example..

Marlin?

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:

quote:

One of my friends had to shut down the discussion forums on their website because people were discussing very openly loading, modification of the rifles etc on the company website. Just an example..

Marlin?

Very Good you win a Cookie!

Don't know what you are doing or watching what you are doing, anyone can blow up a firearm using just about any kind of powder...

so they try to make things as idiot proof for the general public as possible..

no wonder Du Pont got out of the powder business long ago..Sue happy lawyers and a public that wanted to go from rags to riches from winning a law suit over their own stupidity...

anyone who doesn't want to use ANY powder, shouldn't..

I don't use H 335, as I have had it blow a firearm twice.. with loads that are standard loads in a 223.. 25 grains of H 335 and a 55 grain bullet...TWICE...

so I use anything else.. NO One is hold a gun to my head to use it... so I don't..

NO one is holding a gun to anyone's head to use Blue Dot..

but the small chicken little crowd who want to complain about something sure are vocal about it.. acting like someone is making its use mandatory...

wanna accomplish close to the same thing.. then use SR 4759 instead... IMR's data is still around...although nothing new in years..

I burn as much SR 4759 as I do Blue Dot in my rifles...depending on what a particular barrel likes..

you naythesayers never cease to amaze me..

but countering your doomsday panics is always fun...

No panic here ---actually think that it is funny that you are wasting your time attempting to convince a manufacturer to develop data that is not safe. Pretty funny actually but to each his or her own.

I'm interested to know what qualifies you to state a particular load setup is or isn't safe regarding bluedot.
I am a regular user of BD loads and always read these yes/no/rant posts with interest. Can I assume you have also used bluedot and discovered a problem with it?

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
No panic here ---actually think that it is funny that you are wasting your time attempting to convince a manufacturer to develop data that is not safe. Pretty funny actually but to each his or her own.

no one is attempting to convince a manufacturer to do anything.. but feel free to entertain yourself if it makes you laugh....

I only use what is published in load data as a guideline anyway..I work with my rifles to see what is safe in them.. I've had factory recommended loads that my rifle wouldn't take at all.. in fact multiple rifles in the same caliber.. and at below what they listed as max...

so I concluded it is a guideline...

one that comes to mind is the max recommended charge of Benchmark with a 95 grain V Max in the 260 Rem.. all 5 barrels I have in that caliber blow primers 2 grains below max...

some of us experiment. and some of us have to have someone else take all the risks, so they have someone to blame instead of themselves when something screws up.. a common mentality for our society as a whole any more..