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You can put me down for 1100 to 1200. I'm not all that great at keeping records. | |||
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OK, I have a question for all you guys claiming KBs and Detonations with fast burning powders in a rifle case. If this were true and as dangerous as you say, Why does Hodgdon have data for these types of loads? Specifically, the 223 55gr FMJ with 4.0gr Trail Boss, 3.1gr of Titegroup and 3.2gr of Clays. According to many a handloader the powder companies are all lawyered up and their data is watered down to protect their ass, yet they publish these ultra dangerous loads. I don't get it. | |||
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Hey RC, Had no idea "you" were using Blue Dot in Rifle Cases. I'd strongly encourage "you" to use a different Powder. You have a PM.  -----
This herd of dufus half-wit looser rookiee(s) and LIERS seems to be trying to irritate old AMIABLE me. Fortunately, I'm above all that.  ----- The following statement is in 100% compliance with the thought-police:   | |||
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First of all it is LIAR, and why do you think calling fellow members queer is ok with the thought police, whoever they may be? Your act is getting tiring my friend. To your fellow AR members and the management. Learn some respect. Don | |||
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Don: well stated. I have put this so and so on the ignore list, as "I am done with him". I am a little upset with myself though, for being BAITED into some of these idiotic discussions, by people like him, and I have begun to look for the possible trollers, and will also avoid them or their posts. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Hey Don, So you are saying is that it is now OK for the resident FOOLS to Trash me, but that it is inappropriate for me to hand it back? If you will scan the entire thread, I simply responded to the Trash Talkers. Are you changing the Rules? | |||
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Excellent post John  Sadly though I see that pretty much the same ofenders are still spewing piss and bile because what some of us choose to do or use. Perhaps one day they will awake from their self loathing and realize that there is a much biger picture.Respect to you | |||
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Yup!!!!  | |||
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A lot of folks have juggled running chain saws, engaged in rattlesnake round-ups, wrestled alligators and pigs too without any mishaps, but some have phucked up with disasterous consequences.HC has met fire with fire. (see thread on "Medium Bore Forum" whose sole purpose is to TRASH) | |||
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RC, you've been here a while, why do you think a thread would be started and run 10+ pages just to "trash" Hot Core? I know I initiated two posts in regards to HC. In my opinion, his posts in regards to Eland Slayer were over the top. Consequently I decided to use my posts, with his help, to illustrate what a mean spirited individual he can be. Ridicule and scorn can be very effective, and are not equivalent to "trashing". GWB | |||
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Who, in their right mind, believes that 11 Grains of Blue Dot, with a 50 grain jacketed bullet, will blow up a 700 Remington in 223, with an unobstructed barrell? Can't be done!! I don't believe enough pressure could be generated,to equal the proof loads Remington uses for their tests! Hell I use 16 grains with a 240 Grain Lead Gas Checked Bullet in the 44 Mag. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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[quote]quote: I bet forum members here alone have shot over a 100,000 rounds loaded with Blue Dot and not had any mishaps... A lot of folks have juggled running chain saws, engaged in rattlesnake round-ups, wrestled alligators and pigs too without any mishaps, but some have phucked up with disasterous consequences. Couldn't prove it by me. I have seen all sorts of mishaps over the years, including POSTED RELOADING MANUAL LOADS, THAT BLEW PRIMERS, LOCKED UP BOLTS, AND THREW EJECTA IN THE FACE OF THE SHOOTER, all because a cartridge was left in a hot chamber during a shoot, or the ammo was left in the sun. Here in Arizona, many AR15, across the course shooters, carry ice chests to the firing line, in which to keep their ammo until it is time to shoot. Their loads, all published accepted data. I think data is a guide, to be used with experience, but not neccessarily gospel! Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Hello everyone, Been reading this post with interest. I have been using Seafire's recipe for years now, in calibres from 222 remington up to 500 Jeffery, with never a problem. Yes, you read correctly, 45 grains of Blue Dot in a 500 Jeffery with a 500 grain cast bullet gets me around 1700 fps, and shoots sub 2" groups at 100 yards with open sights. I regularly use a BD load in my 308, and I've tried them in big calibres such as 450 Ackley Mag, 416 Taylor, 375 H&H, 338-06, just to name a few. Regards, David. | |||
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GWB, I want to wish Bob Tomek and his Son smooth sailing and quick recovery with the surgury. My prayers are with them. Bob's post about people being astonished by blue dot efficency and performance mirrors my own experience. I shoot alot of .308 at Quantico Marine base with some very good F-class shooters (not me, them young guys). You should see their faces when I pass them my 18gr of BD with a Sierra 110 gr fmg. At 100 this is a no recoil tack driver. I have had 3 or 4 very experienced shooters take the load data with them. I shoot several Blue Dot loads and have had more than a little guidence from SeaFire. I have maybe built and shot 2500 rounds in 6 calibers. There is discussion posted on GMDR specifically addresseing Blue Dot and theoretical issues with its use in large capacity cases (I believe it supports Seafires findings with the 30-06 cases). Each person can read these discussions and make their own decisions. Some Blue Dot loads for .223 Rem are published on the GMDR site under the alternate calibers tab for the Oregon Trail side. Thanks to all who make this a great forum. RC | |||
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Good Post RC: A thought just came to me, maybe all the squawaking about the use of Blue Dot, comes from all the folks, including the reloading manual companies: that we plain ordinary people, are not wise and observant enough to load with a powder, that does not fill, or nearly fill the case. The rest of the bitching, must come from those who either like to complain about things of which they know nothing, or the ones who have made a mistake, and can't or won't admit they are at fault! Seafire has done a great service for us all, and probobly has more experience than anyone else on this site! My personal adviso! If you are using a fast burning powder of any configueration, you need to PAY ATTENTION to what you are doing while loading ammo! Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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This is fine and good. You need to pay attention while loading ANY AMMO. You are implying (and you are correct in doing so) that the loading of fast burning powders in applications for which they are not intended is inherently more risky than using powders suited for the cartridge. I'm sitting on the fence with this subject. I have done things that involve risk as well. They can jump up and bite you. My position is this: With all the information that we have researched and discussed, why even go there? No one here is unable to afford another rifle that will fill the bill SAFELY and with less risk than playing with loadings that even the manufacturer of the powder recommends against! I understand the thrill of it all, the savings etc... Your eyes and apendages are not replaceable. Use your head for something other than a hat rack..... | |||
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Another trademark Hot Bore Brain Fart moment...  and YOU all were there to witness it!  | |||
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As I read all of this thread after being 'on the road" for a few days.. it still comes down to the same thing each time this comes up... we have a lot of guys who support it as they have tried it and are using it regularly... we don't get folks coming forward and telling us all about experiencing the "Horror Stories" predicted by Hot Bore..( I actually like the guy overall...) he occasionally gets one or two supporters, who normally speak against trying it, without having trying it themselves...so they have no hands on experience... yet they theoretically advise against it... I don't have a problem with that, as everyone is entitled to an opinion.... I get accolades from some of our forum members for sharing my work with developing these loads....I appreciate it, but it is really not my aim... I just found something that worked well for me and had an application.. so I shared it with my fellow forum members...that was my only motivation... which doesn't really give me fame or fortune... I guess the compensation I get is the knowledge of being able to provide something to my fellow shooters, from all over the globe.. and getting a "thank you' from them... that alone is priceless... I guess it all boils down to how you look at things... We have Hot Core on one end... telling others how they are going to kill themselves...its just a matter of time... so essentially we have perspectives... I don't know what some of his favorite quotes are in life, that kind of motivate him and his path in life... I can reflect one of mine that is appropriate here... Thomas Edison was once asked by a reporter how did it feel to have failed over 10,000 times before he finally developed the light bulb... Edison's reply was ( it has always been motivational to me..) " I didn't fail 10,000 times before I invented the light bulb... I just found over 10,000 ways a light bulb wouldn't work..." If we dwell on what might fail.. and then afterwards... preach it to everyone that will listen.... we wouldn't develop very much as a society.... If those loads have some applications for you in life, then by all means enjoy them... If they don't have any applications in your shooting world, then avoid them instead of trying to convince everyone else to avoid what you want to avoid... Folks who use Blue Dot load don't seem to be trying to force its use down anyone's throats... those that AVOID its use, seem to be trying to stuff that concept down everyone's throats..... I guess personal choices don't matter to those folks for others unless they make the same personal choices of our doomsday crowd.... and if you don't want to use Blue Dot loads, none of us think you are gay... or less manly ... or you wear a skirt.. or you are really really stupid.... however too many of the naythsayers can't make the same claim..... hundreds of thousands of rounds.. and we don't have a million mishaps reported... only two guys have ever spoke up to my knowledge... one didn't know what happened in his AR... the other blew up a 257 Weatherby.. and he admitted he got distracted by the wife... instead of just blaming it on the person and the site he got the load data from... so the naythsayers don't really have a big track record of failures.... the proponents have had zillions of 'trouble free mileage'... the proponents have plenty of experience with it... the naythsayers admit to having NONE usually..... I do appreciate the support of those that do come to my support by those that continually try to flame me and anyone who uses that load data...to those folks I say thank you... best regards seafire... | |||
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Can't say I find anything to disagree with in your post, Seafire. As you know, I have fired "several thousand" 10 gr. Bluedot loads from my 223, and I feel safe enough to have both my kids shoot the crud out of them, as well. With regards to shotgun powders in rifle cartridges, I find no published evidence of mysterious pressure variations. No publicly available information about "detonations", whatsoever. On the other hand, we have a plethora of evidence from the pistol fraternity that inadvertently doubled powder charges cause mayhem. Happens with astonishing regularity. We also see it occasionally in shotgun reloading (fortunately, usually with less catastrophic results). I know some of my weaknesses; one of which is being distracted at the drop of a hat. Even though I try to be as disciplined as needed, and double check all charges, I find that using a charge of powder which immediately makes a double charge obvious is far more desirable. It's easy to blame the loader, but the reality is that using a load which CAN be double charged, at some point, WILL be double charged and fired. We have evidence of that from the pistol loaders, as well as our own community here. Shotgun powders in rifle cartridges demand perfection from the re-loader. I, for one, haven't quite reached that level. I suspect a few more of our forum members similarly disadvantaged. Since I started using Blue Dot, Trail Boss was introduced. It uses roughly the same charges, but the volume pretty near fills the case. The only cost difference is therefore the cost of the powder, and Trail Boss is about 30% higher per lb than Shotgun powders. In the 223, that's a little less than $0.01 per shot. In my opinion, Trail Boss is simply a better way to achieve the same thing. For a day's shooting, the extra $2.00 or $3.00 matters none. The additional peace of mind is real, and worth more than $3.00. For the purpose of reduced loads, there is (now) simply not a rational reason to continue to use shotgun powders. The market has given us a better option. FWIW, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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Nicely presented, Dutch! rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I moved from Blue Dot to Vita N110 for reduced rifle loads and shoot a lot of .222 and 30/06 at the running boar on the rifle range. For hunting purposes I still shoot some .338 rounds loaded with Blue Dot I have left and 9.3x74R with N110. Since both powders allow for double loads, I check the charge twice and then once more before seating the bullet. Still, I shake each and every round before chambering, just to be on the safe side. | |||
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Dutch... totally agree with you.. that is the down side of handloading fast powders in larger capacity case... It does take discipline and there is no way around it.. folks who can't do it, shouldn't be playing with it or any other powder that mistakes like that can happen.. surprised he didn't mention it, but our friend Roger Bartsche here, sent me some dowels he made up for checking the level of powder in a case before seating a bullet... with colored marks on each dowel as a reference point for measuring how deep it is in a case... this is a marvelously wnrderful and simple way to prevent double charges in any type of rifle case... Kudos and thanks once again to Roger for sending those to me...I have passed on the idea to many a folk... but I still believe those that are hazard prone at the reload bench over all should be shooting factory ammo... thst statement is not aimed at you, as you evidently know what you are doing at the reload bench by just realizing making a mistake is possible...to many other guys are just overly clueless..... but it is not the load that is the problem.... it is the individual.... how idiot proof do we have to make modern society to satisfy the liberal left... in decades past, the stupid getting hurt was just looked at as natural selection.... nowadays stupidity and a lawyer are a route from rags to riches for waaaay too many trailer park trash and ghetto wannabes... | |||
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Another mishap (for this guy) some 3 hours ago, 36 grain Blue Dot, .338 200 grain Ballistic Tip. I survived, he did not.  | |||
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good on ya' and mighty fine GWB | |||
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Nicely done DUK Von Gruff. | |||
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Hot Core emailed me this picture  North Carolina Elk... 22 Hornet, Model 70 Winchester.. 6.5 grains of Blue Dot... 40 grain ballistic Tip... he highlighted how important shot placement is.. Nice trophy, however the down side: The Raleigh City Zoo Manager was really pissed tho...  | |||
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I have to chime in on this thread after reading (almost) all the posts. In my time on these message boards, I have followed many threads relating to the Blue Dot loads in .223 and similar cartridges. These loads sound very interesting. I have yet to actually try any of them personally. I may some day, but until I do, I will refrain from promoting them or condemning them or the people who do use them and share their positive experiences with them. I see no reason to attack or insult people who do not share my opinions about reloading or cartridge choices on game or which company makes the most accurate rifles. The insults are childish and are a waste of time. I actually do see a reason why a powder manufacturer would not recommend or even test loads that might be as good as "conventional" loads, if those loads can be successfully assembled using half the equivalent powder as "conventional" loads. Their revenue depends on selling powder, the more the better. Kind of like Lexus not recommending the Toyota equivalent to their more expensive, but fundamentally the same car. And some posters claim that they did not wish any personal harm to come to other posters, yet that was exactly what was inferred in their comment. (How happy they were to hear that the parties they disagree with were using what they consider are very dangerous unsafe loads. What else could be inferred from such a statement?) The vast majority of posters that support the "Blue Dot group" have posted many polite informative posts on many subjects throughout my time here on AR. The "anti-Blue Dot Group" seems to primarily take joy in attacking others who disagree with their opinions. I guess that makes me a supporter of the Blue Dot Group, even though I may never actually assemble any. That is my choice. And by the way, Hot Core. I don't think you ever did respond to the Elk question as to how many Elk you have actually taken, even though in your expert opinion, the .270 Winchester is totally inadequate for the task. Since I know 2 different guys who have each taken at least two elk with 6mm cartridges 2 with the .243 Win and 2 with the 6mm Rem, it sounds like you might be wrong. Maybe. Possibly. Bullets are pretty worthless. All they do is hang around waiting to get loaded. | |||
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Look, you guys say you don't appreciate HC's input and after a moderator's comment, he is not responding. Now the last 2 posts y'all are kicking sand in his face. Do you want him to respond to your jabs or do you want him to leave you alone. Choose Grow up ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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I think a lot of people would like him to honestly answer the elk question. As for growing up, I haven't done any name calling or made any remarks that the moderator has felt necessary to chime in on. I will look for his answer on the other thread. I won't hold my breath, though. Since he has responded multiple times without answering what were some very valid questions, only his usual insults and attaboys for his supporters. For the record, I have never shot an elk either, which is why I don't criticize choice of cartridge of people who have. Bullets are pretty worthless. All they do is hang around waiting to get loaded. | |||
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and I was just teasing Hot Bore... I actually like the guy.. he's entertaining.. once you don't take most of his posts seriously.. he isn't a bad sort.. and what I refer to as not taking seriously is the flaming and condemning.. all forum members contribute to each other in varying forms.... hopefully that is why we are all here.. I'm here to share and learn from others..not here to be a hero or a bum... | |||
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Hot Core is a big boy, he can take a little heat. One of my farm managers has now shot five elk with his 22/250. All one shot kills on wild, public land, over the counter tags, except one draw tag on a cow. Methinks the 270 is prolly enough for an elk, too. Although this guy moved up to a 25/06 five years ago, and the first elk with that gun took three through the lungs before being reduced to steaks and burger. Based on that experience, should we infer that the 270 is probably TOO BIG? Seafire, thanks for your response. One question remains in my mind, still. Why would we continue loading/suggesting Blue Dot over Trail Boss? It doesn't seem rational? FWIW, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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Dutch, I have played with Trail Boss quite a bit..order it in the big 5 lb containers... however my limiting factor on it over Blue Dot.. Blue Dot yields more accuracy.. it gives much better velocity potential.. over a wider range of velocity.. The powders I burn the most in my 223s is Blue Dot and SR 4759....folks seem to not ever worry about SR 4759, because the factory did load data on it.. my 223s get loaded in the velocity range of 2400 fps to 3200 fps depending on bullet weight.. just to stir the pot... I get accused of squib loads in the 223 with Blue Dot.. then I get accused of potentially blowing up guns with it..neither of which have happened... I figure in the 223, I have problem loaded well over 40,000 rounds of the stuff now..10,000 went thru one rifle alone... I also have found if you use those real nice little Berger 30 grain HPs, which is as long as a 40 gr V Max, Blue Dot will give me 3800 fps out of a 24 inch barrel...I don't post that load because people will really freak out over that one...but after a 1000 rounds or more.... and ZERO mishaps.. I have to assume the doomsday critics must be wrong I am going to blow up something ( besides varmints.. have blown up plenty of those...) playing with handloads and watch for pressure signs ( I am a freak of stretching out brass life, just for the challenge) I have found that I can also send a 40 grain bullet out of a 223 at 4000 fps.. and with proper brass care, get a tested 20 reloads plus out of the same batch of brass... and experimenting with brass life...a pattern of neck sizing with a Lee Collet Die, using a Redding Body die when the shoulder needs bumped back and annealing every 4th reload...I ran a test batch of Remington 223 brass thru 100 reloads before I stopped... only casualties were at the load bench with a crushed case ( 3 times)....I got motivated on finding out if that could be done, by reading on Lapua's site about how some of their brass has been reloaded up to 300 times in their test facilities.... so yeah, I experiment a lot... that is as big of a hobby as going out and just shooting varmints... and as to shooting Elk with a 22.250... met a little old Indian grandma in Montana that has shot elk for 40 plus years with a 22.250.. being an Indian she shoots several a year, and for the meat... she uses a 22.250 because that is as big of a gun as she can shoot... and granted you can't call it hunting.. she shoots them from her front porch, when her meat is getting low and one is grazing near enough to her house.. she nails one, and then calls her grandkids to come over and gut it and quarter it for her... while she processes the meat herself... I've always believed the smaller the caliber the more most 'in the know' hunters concentrate on shot placement when they are pulling the trigger.. when I get old enough to not hunt anymore, I am speculating that my "deer rifle' will be a 22 Mag, and I'll be shooting one in the yard... and then calling over the grandkids to come gut it and clean it for me... one shot right to the head within a hundred yards with a 22 Mag will take any blacktail I see wandering thru the yard each summer and fall.... ( and yeah, for the naythsayers, I will still buy a tag...cause I can see their gears turning to criticize that also) | |||
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RC: This is ABSOLUTLY NOT what I am saying! Please don't misconstrue my words, or meaning. There is enough PUBLISHED data of all kinds to support the use of reduced velocity loads in rifle cartridges, with all kinds of powders, to make this discusssion, IMO unnecessary. However, some will continue to pound the subject negatively. Here's a situation for you to consider, 38 special/158Grain Lead Bullet/3.8 grains of Bullseye, is the Max load. Would 7.6 grains blow up a revolver, an older one? Surely 10 grains would. Now this is a published load by Alliant. Bullseye is considered the most powerfull, or one of the most powerfull, fast powders because it is a double based powder which includes nitro glyceren in it's manufacturing process. Many fine target revolvers have had the top strap blown off, because of an over charge. According to you, we shouldn't use this load, even though it is published by Alliant, cause it does not fill the case, and the possibilty of an overcharge is great. We have NO examples like this in the use of Blue Dot, in the 223. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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I've fired 450 rounds the last 18 months.
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Eurocentric... you'd love it out sage rat shooting.... I've fired that many Blue Dot rounds at sage rats in an afternoon in about 4 hours... | |||
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Bluedot DOES have the potential to give more velocity than Trailboss in the 223. No doubt. For me, that's not a problem. As long as it hits a target at 100 to 150 yards and kills the occasional coon or flying varmint, I am good. Accuracy -- I haven't found much of a difference so far, but I've just started playing. The H4895 loads Hodgdon listed were disappointing all around. Mostly pretty dirty, and not where I wanted to go. The SR loads were always pretty good. The purpose of the game is to shoot, and shoot often. The light loads do that, economically and quietly. I'd like them to be as safe as possible as well FWIW, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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Another mishap, not with Blue Dot but with Vihta N110 and the 9.3x74R, equally deadly for the victim, it was junior's first roe buck, too:  | |||
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This quote wasn't mine. I can see that we have a couple of signatures that are very close to each other. Not a big thing, I just don't want credit or blame that I did not earn. Seafire, would you PM me the BD load with the berger 30's. I use them in my hornet and was wondering about my 1-9 12-FV. If they hold together, they ought to scream. Thanks to all rc (rchouser) | |||
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Funny, I thought 'sitting on the fence' meant not taking sides, indecisive? Perhaps the better idiom would be 'straddling the fence?'  No, you didn't do that either. You definitely think using Blue Dot reduced loads are a bad idea. Maybe one of those pickets pushed up too far and gave you a case of the brain farts?  | |||
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I guess Ben, Alliant's ballistician suffers from the same malady according to the much more knowledgeable onefunzr2. As of right now, I'm definitely on the opposite side of the fence as the proponents of taking something and making it do something for which it was not meant. I'll err on the side of millions of dollars of R&D and just shoot a suitable caliber loaded properly and conventionally.
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