Friends-

I would like some recommendations regarding .45 ACP +P loads for personal defense.

If Unique is your powder of choice, all the better, I have quite a bit of that around.

In terms of bullet selection, I am wide open. The Barnes TAC-XP Bullets 45 GAP (451 Diameter) 160 Grain Hollow Point Lead-Free, looks like an interesting personal defence choice but, I know there are a lot of bullets out there in this catagory. What is your favorite and why?

I stopped being interested in new developments a few years ago, so my advice is certainly out of date.

1) Use factory ammo for self-defense. Just one less thing to have a prosecuting attorney use against you if you have to defend yourself in court after an armed confrontation. I understand that there is no trial data that any prosecutor actually ever tried to use this as evidence of "premeditation", so maybe it's internet paranoia. But there's always a first time.
2) Reload practice loads which give similar ballistics, and therefore similar recoil characteristics and point of impact on a target at self-defense ranges. No need to use high end bullets if you can develop rounds with similar behaviour. It will cost a lot less than shooting factory ammo for practice, and a lot less than shooting expensive bullets in reloads.

Unique is my 45ACP powder. I did my research and loaded 7.5g w/ 185g sierras, Nosler and horn xtp. All hollow points. Then I tested them in wet phone books. Both the sierras and noslers were very inconsistent. Some expanded, many did not. The xtps all looked nearly identical. Perfect expansion and good pretty equal penetration. They also fed well in a colt 1911 SS.
On the big bore forum(here on AR) our resident bullet testing expert Doc M recently did some 45 ACP bullet testing. Look up his results. Page 282 if I remember correctly .

Recommendations for personal defense. Just my opinions. Personal defense would mean close up--very close up. Often inside ones home. Last thing you want is a bullet hitting someone that is suppossed to be in your home. House walls are not berms. Heavy bullets would have more chance of penetrating a wall and being in a room you don't want them in. Next unwanted thing would be a gun malfunction. My experience has been that revolvers are more dependable. Close range a .22 through a perps vitals should do the job.

I agree with Wink. You do not want to be on the witness stand explaining to the jury how you cooked up those "extra lethal" home brew handloads that widowed Bubba's 6 wives and orphaned his 22 offspring.
Use factory loads for PD and get a recommendation from a local LEO if possible. That way you can say "I was using the same load as XYZ Police Department."

I know they are out to get us, but seriously. IF (and big if in my opinion) the concern is "super, extra lethal handloads", just load your handloads to published factory specs. Easy
That way you can say truthfully, "I loaded the ammo to the same specs as the stuff anybody can buy at wal-mart. It just costs me less money".
AND don't forget, dead people tell no lies. I think you are much better off shooting someone in your house twice w/ a 45 as opposed to multiple times w/ a 22.
Also, heaven forbid you do have to shoot someone, but if you do, do not forget these words "I feared for my life ". If you have family, add them to your statement.

I load my .45 acp with 230 gr full metal jacket ammo with a stadard velocity load of Unique.

Why??? You don't need a fancy bullet with a .45. I also wan't my pistol to function and feed properly and nothing feeds & flows better than standard velocity FMJ round nose bullets. They are also better if you are in your car and need to shoot the door or glass.

Dead men tell no tale...and you always feared for your life!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I load my .45 acp with 230 gr full metal jacket ammo with a stadard velocity load of Unique.......Why??? You don't need a fancy bullet with a .45.......

I'll never forget the first thing my buddy shot with a 45, a 30 pound bitch in heat that chummed up a pretty good dog pack that was roaming the neighborhood. He loaded the bitch up in the car and took her out in the country. Put the 45 up side her chest and let it rip. He expected the dog to go down as though pole axed. To his amazement she took off yelping an hollering. When he got his jaw up off the ground he ran, passed her then set up to shoot again as she ran by. Shoot he did, hit her twice more, both chest shots. She turned and ran into the woods. The next day the buzzards told him she was dead. 230 grain hard ball. Another time he shot a 70 pound dog in the chest with a 45. Dog died the next day. 230 grain hard ball. Remember, this was not me, no, it was my buddy. 45 caliber 230 grain hard ball bullets are not magic.

Some people are delusional about the 45 with good expanding bullets it works as well as the other handgun calibers with expanding bullets in the same energy range.

With non expanding bullets it works as well as other calibers with non expanding bullets in the same energy range.

Well, if you use a boutique mono-metal bullet, you can say you were not tring to cause lead poisoning if the perp survived....

I too, like the Hornady XTP 230 +P loads, enough energy to be useful, great, reliable expansion, and manageable recoil (in a gov model steel gun-the only 45 I have). They are a bit mean in a Kimber Ultra mini thingy my buddy has, though.

I'd like to try the Hornady Critical defense, but then again, all after my first mag carry hardball...

I agree with everybody that said you don't need +p to kill someone 5' in front of you. Nor do you want to kill your child that is two rooms over.
Go with a commercial round loaded with hollow points. A hit, regardless of where, is gonna make a grievous wound yet the bullet isn't gonna "over penetrate" into the next room or wherever.

The #1 45ACP man killer in over one hundred years

230 FMJ

quote:

Originally posted by Suwannee Tim:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I load my .45 acp with 230 gr full metal jacket ammo with a stadard velocity load of Unique.......Why??? You don't need a fancy bullet with a .45.......

I'll never forget the first thing my buddy shot with a 45, a 30 pound bitch in heat that chummed up a pretty good dog pack that was roaming the neighborhood. He loaded the bitch up in the car and took her out in the country. Put the 45 up side her chest and let it rip. He expected the dog to go down as though pole axed. To his amazement she took off yelping an hollering. When he got his jaw up off the ground he ran, passed her then set up to shoot again as she ran by. Shoot he did, hit her twice more, both chest shots. She turned and ran into the woods. The next day the buzzards told him she was dead. 230 grain hard ball. Another time he shot a 70 pound dog in the chest with a 45. Dog died the next day. 230 grain hard ball. Remember, this was not me, no, it was my buddy. 45 caliber 230 grain hard ball bullets are not magic.

Hate to bust the bubble about standard velocity pistol rounds and home safety....

They ALL penetrate multiple interior walls and retain enough enrgy to harm....

Again, I know I will be arguing to the "ex[erts", but the fact is that a handgun with any bullet, FMJ or JHP, and a shotgun with EITHER bird, buck or slug will render additional ventilation throughout the home.

The good news is that a 223 or similar HV medium bore with SP, JHP or pretty much any other expanding bullet is safer for use in the average home....

(Kevlar undies on, ready for the flames of ignorance!)

In the end, know your fields of fire in and outside are critical , regardless of the projo's you use....

HPMaster is correct.

I have done extensive testing, shooting in houses, buildings, etc. All work related.

A 223 loaded with 50 or 55gr Ballsitic Tips [including Winchester factory loads with Ballistic Silvertips], will penetrate MUCH less building material, walls, doors, etc., than most all common defensive handgun rounds.

I'm not an expert but the idea that a 45 cal hollow point pistol round is gonna out penetrate a .223 rifle round is kinda hard to accept.

Wasbeeman;

The facts are the facts. The light, fast frangible 223 light to mid weight billet will come apart in frame and dry wall contruction buildings so much faster than a 230 grain (or most any but the lightest and fastest handgun rounds) JHP.

A simple test is easy to replicate- make a sample wall of 1/2" drywall, add paneling or just paint or paper, space it with a pair of 2x4's,stuff with interior insulation then place a pair of gallon water jugs behind it and shoot it with both.... You likely will find fragments of the 22 HV bullet in the 1st water jug, but the 45 or 9 will keep on a going and going....

Like I said...I want my .45 acp to feed and penetrate...a car door if necessary.

230 gr FMJ for me.

You guys that want to equivilate the .45 to the 9mm need to go back and review the lethality trials done by the military in the early 20th century. Granted...they did not include the 9mm but they did use the .38.

I like the 230 grain xtp. I load with unique a lot also. Fortunately, I live in an area where if the round goes through a wall, its not a problem for a neighbor. I'm the only one living in the house so no worries for other family members either. My 1st line of defense is a 10ga. double with OO Buck, then the .45 if there are further needed hostilities. I can always get the house remodeled.

quote:

Like I said...I want my .45 acp to feed and penetrate...a car door if necessary.

The 230 gr fmj penetrates very poorly against auto mobiles. Not enough velocity if you want to penetrate vehicles.

Just went and checked. A friend has a wrecking yard right beside a commercial property I own.

Held a 5 gal plastic bucket full of wet cattle cubes (raining here ) on the outside of a car door.

Shot through the door from where I would be sitting in the vehicle into the bucket. 230 gr fmj at standard vel exited the bucket.

Just what I want.

Having tried shooting through vehicle doors with a 45 230 fmj and having failed to do so I find them not reliable in that matter.

I good friend of mine returned fire with his 45 and fmjs at a bad guy in a car that just shot at him with a shotgun.

They were found laying in the trunk and rear fender well When we recover the bullets for evidence. Good solid center hits just not enough penetration to make to the driver.

I did the same thing with a .22 LR and it penetrated enough into the bucket to probably kill some one.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Having tried shooting through vehicle doors with a 45 230 fmj and having failed to do so I find them not reliable in that matter.

I good friend of mine returned fire with his 45 and fmjs at a bad guy in a car that just shot at him with a shotgun.

They were found laying in the trunk and rear fender well When we recover the bullets for evidence. Good solid center hits just not enough penetration to make to the driver.

That is whole lot different than holding the muzzle just below window and shooting someone standing outside the car.

I have killed a train car load of horses over the years with a .45 acp and never cease to be amazed at how far they will penetrate.

Funny thing is that this thread is arguing that they under penetrate...and we have this one, http://forums.accuratereloadin...351052391#7351052391 , arguing that they over penetrate structure and should not not be used for that reason.

I have been carrying one for 30 yrs now and shot MANY animals weighing from 1 lb to 2000 lb with mine...never felt lacking.

I like Federal HST 230g +P retail loads....cuz.

I actually have a source for the same bullet and have loaded those rounds with Bullseye, Univ. Clays, Unique, and AA#5.

AA#5 rounded out to 986fps out of a Glock 30 with a standard length KKM barrel.

I went with the Remington Golden Saber 185 +P. I'd be interested in the velocity on the 230 +P. The 185 is just over 1011 fps (1011 and 1012 in two sample groups). Not that I found anything I didn't like out of the Glock but the Gold Dot Short Barrel (230 gn)and Hydra Shok Personal Defense loads (165 gn) had the lowest muzzle energy.

A load that won't penetrate several walls won't penetrate adequately in a bad guy either.

My 1911 load is:
230 gr FMJ or Copper Plated Round Nose
6.1 grains Unique

Chrony'd at about 900 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Having tried shooting through vehicle doors with a 45 230 fmj and having failed to do so I find them not reliable in that matter.

I good friend of mine returned fire with his 45 and fmjs at a bad guy in a car that just shot at him with a shotgun.

They were found laying in the trunk and rear fender well When we recover the bullets for evidence. Good solid center hits just not enough penetration to make to the driver.

That is whole lot different than holding the muzzle just below window and shooting someone standing outside the car.

I have killed a train car load of horses over the years with a .45 acp and never cease to be amazed at how far they will penetrate.

Funny thing is that this thread is arguing that they under penetrate...and we have this one, http://forums.accuratereloadin...351052391#7351052391 , arguing that they over penetrate structure and should not not be used for that reason.

I have been carrying one for 30 yrs now and shot MANY animals weighing from 1 lb to 2000 lb with mine...never felt lacking.

Doc-

If you think about the military science of the time when the .45ACP was designed, it was ten years after the Spanish American War and John Browning was commissioned to create an auto loading handgun that would stop military transportation of the time. These were the days when cavalry still ruled the battle field. Hence, the chief design criteria of the .45 ACP was to stop or dispatch a horse, as well as, an infantry soldier.

P Dog- at the risk of being a horse's butt, there weren't that many car doors in 1908

quote:

Originally posted by 30 Caliber Mag Fan:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Having tried shooting through vehicle doors with a 45 230 fmj and having failed to do so I find them not reliable in that matter.

I good friend of mine returned fire with his 45 and fmjs at a bad guy in a car that just shot at him with a shotgun.

They were found laying in the trunk and rear fender well When we recover the bullets for evidence. Good solid center hits just not enough penetration to make to the driver.

That is whole lot different than holding the muzzle just below window and shooting someone standing outside the car.

I have killed a train car load of horses over the years with a .45 acp and never cease to be amazed at how far they will penetrate.

Funny thing is that this thread is arguing that they under penetrate...and we have this one, http://forums.accuratereloadin...351052391#7351052391 , arguing that they over penetrate structure and should not not be used for that reason.

I have been carrying one for 30 yrs now and shot MANY animals weighing from 1 lb to 2000 lb with mine...never felt lacking.

Doc-

If you think about the military science of the time when the .45ACP was designed, it was ten years after the Spanish American War and John Browning was commissioned to create an auto loading handgun that would stop military transportation of the time. These were the days when cavalry still ruled the battle field. Hence, the chief design criteria of the .45 ACP was to stop or dispatch a horse, as well as, an infantry soldier.

P Dog- at the risk of being a horse's butt, there weren't that many car doors in 1908

Very True!

But it has stood the test of time and is still arguably the best defensive or combat handgun today. A lot like the .50 BMG has ruled the battlefield and still does today.

First things first. In home defense train your family when coming in the house unexpectedly and you ask "who's there" to say their complete name. A lady in our city heard someone come in her house expecting it to be her husband and asked "honey is that you?" The rapist grunted affirmative so the wife didn't arm herself with a very handy pistol and was brutally attacked. This warning prevents blue on blue shootings while giving you time to get your gun if you don't get the proper response.

As a retired cop (please don't roll your eyes, I'm one of the good guys) I've gone on a couple of dozen citizens shooting bad guys in their homes. Each good guy shooters knew where everyone in the house was before they fired. Concern over, over penetration should be least of your worries, save your life and that of your family first. Civil suits, heck you can sue anyone for anything these days. Not one of the good guy shooting I ever went of was criminally charged or sued, but then again I live the the wild west! A couple of shooting I remember that put the bad guys down were good guys were shooting 200 grain cast semi wadcutters with 7.5 grains of Unique. How did I know? You have to get the traumatized people"s minds off the life and death situation so they don't go PTSD on you, so we talked guns and ammo.

I attended autopsies as part of my duties and I talked the the pathologist who had been in the business for three decades and I asked him the #1 kill of calibers. Surprise it was the .380 with FMJ bullets. I asked him why and he said it was usually close range which aided in great shot placement. I asked him what he carried, 1911A1 with 230 FMJ's. Another why and he said nothing fancy has to happen as it's bigger going in and out then most hollow points and he said he never shot a German who didn't fall down and give up the fight. Since he had over 2000 shooting autopsies under his knife, I thought him to be some what of an expert. We get all the info we can, make our decision, and live or die with that choice.

I fully agree the best home defense weapon is an AR-15. Use a pistol to fight to your rifle and finish the gun fight. As a Marine grunt in VN, 68-69 I noted all the NVA we shot under a hundred meters in body or head shots, rounds never exited the body and that was with M-193 55 grain ball. Over 100 meters exit wounds the size of a quarter. I saw this same thing on the PD, no exit wounds with .223's.

quote:

Very True!

But it has stood the test of time and is still arguably the best defensive or combat handgun today. A lot like the .50 BMG has ruled the battlefield and still does today.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS
_____________________

“A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.”
Former Texas Speaker of the House Billy Clayton.

Doc-

You and I are in complete alignment and agreement.

Thanks,

Mark

This is a reloading form. The OP asked about reloads for his 45. I'm an old Army retiree who cut his teeth on the 1911 back in the 70's and have been shooting it ever since. My two favorite factory loads, based on Dr Gary K. Roberts, an exceptional ballistics expert has this page posted on many many web site, are the Speer 230 gr Gold Dot and the Federal 230 gr HST; both are readily available on the retail market.

http://pistol-forum.com/showth...stics-info-by-DocGKR

With that said, I like to copy the Speer load by using, wait for it; Solo 1000. I've never heard of anyone using Solo 1000 in a 45 ACP but AA posts data for it. A number of years back I did some night time muzzle flash testing on a video camera and Solo 1000 was nil to nothing for muzzle flash. Exceptionally fast speeds and very accurate out of every 5" 1911 with the 230 Gold Dot I've ever tested it in. It's my self defense load when I can't find either the GD or HST load in factory flavor.

Alan

This has been a very informative thread. I really appreciate all the knowledge that is on this site and the willingness to contribute to the knowledge of others.

I'm by no means an expert on penetration. I did buy a couple different packs of "Glaser Blue Safety Slugs" a few years back. The selling feature was that they don't over penetrate. They cost something on the order of $15.00 for a package of six so I limited my experimenting with my auto handguns to three per caliber to see if they would cycle. They did cycle OK. I tested them against a couple dry phone books (ours are not over 3/4" thick including the yellow pages) and they didn't penetrate as much as lead or hollow point jacketed rounds. I really doubt they would make it through a car door but my concern at the time was interior walls. Our nearest neighbor is at least 400 yds away plus we live in a brick house so I doubt any of my rifles or handguns would be of danger to houses nearby with soft nosed or hollow point rounds I used for self defense. This test probably means not much but at the time was the best I could think of. Does anyone have any experience with these rounds in a home type setting or auto door? Knowing what the interior of a car door looks like I suspect it would depend on whether or not your bullet hit a structural member in the door. Otherwise you only have to penetrate thin sheet metal, some 4 mil poly sheets, and cardboard with vinyl or leather upholstery on it. Funny part is I still don't load the Glaser rounds for self defense. I just haven't read enough about them to trust them.

Mark,

Wink is spot on in his advice and I agree,

Buy some Hornady Critical Defense or Critical Duty factory ammunition, load some bulk bullets to the same velocity for practice and spend your time on the range. the 45 ACP is a great and time tested cartridge but ONLY if you are willing to put the time in practicing as it can be a bit much in recoil and hard to learn to shoot to the uninitiated. there are other choices in factory ammo out there that are all very good.

Good luck,

Paul

In my 32+ years in law enforcement I have NEVER experienced anyone using an AR-15 (or any other rifle, for that matter) for in-home self defense. IMHO they are way too unwieldy for self defense in the tight quarters of a residence. Plus the fact they are easier to grab/deflect than a handgun. IMHO fuggitabout using reloads or FMJ ammo in any self defense handgun of any caliber: factory jacketed hollowpoints are the correct choice. Although I carry a 45 ACP at work I would have to admit the 9mm Luger caliber has dispatched more folks than any other caliber due to its widespread global use compared to the 45 ACP.

Just an " FYI "; lots of tech info ( Cutting Edge Bullets ),over on the Big bore Forum: Terminal Bullet Performance.
https://cuttingedgebullets.com...tion&key=HGHP_45_150

New pistol bullet testing posted.

Tested 9mm-90 gr @ 1,350 fps, .40-120 gr @ 1,200 fps, and the .45-150 gr @ 1,200 fps.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/284