In this video of a fatal shootout, the bad guy takes a fatal hit in the chest from a troopers pistol and it doesn't even slow him down. He continued his attack unimpaired. He stopped his attack only when he decided to get back in his car and drove away.

Only a shot that damages the central nervous system can stop someone immediately. Only a shot to the brain or a shot that penetrates to damage the spine will cause someone to go down involuntarily.

http://www.guns.com/2013/10/03...interstate-shootout/

President Reagan was shot with a 22LR and didn't know it. His press secretary, standing next to him, went down immediately when hit in the brain from the same weapon.

Governor Wallace went down immediately when his spine was severed from a shot through the stomach.

How many times have you seen a youtube video of shots exchanged across the counter at a convenience store where the perp runs away to die just outside the door.

We've been taught to shoot Center Of Mass to increase the possibility of getting hits. but, fatal ineffective hits don't stop the fight.

To stop the fight RIGHT NOW, maybe we should be trained to hit the Central Nervous System.

Current training for SWAT/SpecOps teaches the Mozambique 3 round rapid fire hits. 1 & 2 = center of mass and 3 = forehead. If they go down from 1 & 2 you can save 3 for if they get back up! The Mozambique came about after the bad guys started wearing body armor, and has been around for some years now.

Handguns are generally about 25% effective for a body hit. (compliation of years' worth of real shooting data).

Hence, we must appreciate the rather wimpy overall performance of fighting caliber handguns (38 spl to 45 ACP).

We are taught to shoot center mass to assure the best probability of an actual hit, and this is good advice- as a hit is a requirement to actually stop a threat.

We are taught to shoot till the threat is stopped, usually requiring multiple hits to a determined attacker. So we train to place two rapid shot to the visible mass of the target.

Then, we are told to assume the worst- the perp is either drugged up and won't realize hits, or is armored and will ignore hits, so we are told to shoot the threat again in the head. Sounds palusble until you try it with about 100 units of adrenaline pumping through your veins!

If one practices at moving soft ball sized targets (as in USPSA/IPSC stars etc) maybe some can do it under stress more effectively than others, most don't do so well.

I was trained to shoot twice to the body, high in the "terminal T" of the upper thorax and lower CNS of the spine then seek the hips if still standing, saving any attempt at head shots for when the threat was immobilized and still threatening....

I pondered all of this and my decision was to leave the M9/M11 holstered and rely on the M4. That worked rather well.

Now, out of that line of work, I still carry a handgun, but it is the means to get to the long gun if at home; the means to increase distance between self and threat if abroad.

I do try to get in weekly short range drills if possible, as these skills are perishable.

quote:

Hence, we must appreciate the rather wimpy overall performance of fighting caliber handguns (38 spl to 45 ACP).

HP Master,

Have you ever witnessed the films of the the leathality testing done by some branch of the military in the early 20th century (obviously before any animal rights groups)? They shot livestock (cattle mainly) from braodside into thorax.

quote:

Have you ever witnessed the films of the the leathality testing done by some branch of the military in the early 20th century (obviously before any animal rights groups)? They shot livestock (cattle mainly) from braodside into thorax.

And it has been disproven to have any relationship to how hand guns preform on humans.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Have you ever witnessed the films of the the leathality testing done by some branch of the military in the early 20th century (obviously before any animal rights groups)? They shot livestock (cattle mainly) from braodside into thorax.

And it has been disproven to have any relationship to how hand guns preform on humans.

Exactly how has it been disproven?

I have never seen a human yet that can take the punishment of a large animal and keep going. Humans are relatively easy to kill.

quote:

Exactly how has it been disproven. I have never seen a human yet that can take the punishment of a large animal and keep going. Humans are relatively easy to kill

Have you read any of the handgun testing and writings of modern times Fackler, Sannow and Marshall.

Shooting large animals really has no relationship to stopping power of handgun rounds. If large animals were the standard then we know rifles are preferred.

If you really want to know what kind of punishment humans can take and keep on going just read some Medal of Honor accounts.

As I wrote in the first post, stopping someone and killing someone are two different things. With an effective, fight-stopping hit, the guy getting hit collapses like a puppet when its strings are cut. No voluntary action is possible with such a hit. Instant paralysis.

That's the goal; to stop the fight.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Exactly how has it been disproven. I have never seen a human yet that can take the punishment of a large animal and keep going. Humans are relatively easy to kill

Have you read any of the handgun testing and writings of modern times Fackler, Sannow and Marshall.

Shooting large animals really has no relationship to stopping power of handgun rounds. If large animals were the standard then we know rifles are preferred.

If you really want to know what kind of punishment humans can take and keep on going just read some Medal of Honor accounts.

P Dog Shooter,
As a veterinarian I have done many a necropsy on things that have been shot.

A lot of the stuff you are saying simply isn't true. If you are standing outside my truck window and start to bash my window in, like the recent biker video, and I stick my .45 5" away inside and pull the trigger...you are going to get a .451 hole thru your midsection unless you are wearing Kevlar and even if...you are gonna take a hit.

Yes...I have read a lot but the saying: "don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see" applies here. I have seen the films of the early 20th century military testing and I have witnessed first hand of what 230 gr FMJ .451 projectiles do in tissue.

Granted...I would rather have my Benelli 12g or my Armalite AR-10...but in a pinch...it is hard to beat a .45 acp as a defensive round until a long gun can be obtained.

Comparing a Medal of Honor winning soldier to the common "jacker" I would be shooting in self-defense...is a far reach as well.

Just like with stopping a Cape buff charge...bullet diameter means a lot. The reason a .458 WM or better is considered a stopper and a .375 H&H is not.

Ledvm;

No, not viewed films, but am familiar with those early efforts- hence the personal pref for caliber that start with "4" in handguns. However, when looking at two legged targets, bigger is not necessarily better. There is a fine distinction where bore size and bullet dynamics cross...

A 22 cal mid weight at 2500 or so fs designed to yaw, then fragment does a lot in a short distance ( a human thorax?) that a 45 won't do any better. Again, it sounds like I am contradicting myself, but in the one hand you have a low velocity fairly non expanding bullet, in the other, a hi velocity frangible, so there are different dynamics at work.

What caliber produces 100% first round stops? A 223 rem/556 nato with the right bullet at the right (close)range.

I shoot HPO with 80 grain Amaxs, but a would prefer not to shoot a perp with one at 20 m. even tough I can obtain nearly 2800 fs from a 20 inch service rifle barrel. My AR defense round are 75 Hornady BTHPs from a 20 inch rifle at 2700 fs.

Unless the target is abut 2 feet thick, a solid body hit will likely stop it. The 45, again, may require multiple solid hits, and would be non useful if the target is wearing IIA or better armour. Plan for the worst, except the worst.

Can't say that I have seen necropsies, but in the filed, bullets and bodies are the norm. 556 at 200m or less are devastating.

HP,

Not trying to be argumentative...but frangible bullets designed to yaw are just that...frangible and unpredictable. Frangible bullets sometimes are frangible at the wrong times...ie: over a hard bone like a humerus.

For me...I will take a .451 hole all the way through and the frontal impact the big caliber gives everytime.

quote:

As a veterinarian I have done many a necropsy on things that have been shot

As a hunter and farmer I have also done field necropsy and butchered hundreds of animals looking at bullet damage. A slow moving FMJ does less damage then a bullet of the same caliber that expands at the same vel.

If shooting steers is a good test media I say a 22rf is the best stopper, dam they dropped at the shot every time I butchered one.

As an LEO I do have witnessed what hand guns ,shotguns and rifle bullets do to people first hand. I seen people killed with a single 22rf to the chest dropped at the shot the shooter said.

Then and live after being shot with a 12ga 3inch 1oz and 7/8ths of 6s at 10 feet center mass.(hunting accident)

I know one fellow who was shot in the head with a 12ga at point blank and lived, Missed the brain and took his jaw and nose off.

I saw a fellow that was shot point blank side to side with a 170gr 30-30 bullet and live.

A good friend of mine was shot back to front with a 405gr 45-70 (Hunting accident) survived even after taking a couple hrs to get to the hospital

I could go on and on with bullet wound stories.

Give me a good expanding bullet for self defense against humans.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

As a veterinarian I have done many a necropsy on things that have been shot

As a hunter and farmer I have also done field necropsy and butchered hundreds of animals looking at bullet damage. A slow moving FMJ does less damage then a bullet of the same caliber that expands at the same vel.

You make one critical assumption here which, in my opinion, cannot be made. And that is adequate penetration. When killing things...penetration is everything.

If shooting steers is a good test media I say a 22rf is the best stopper, dam they dropped at the shot every time I butchered one.

How many did you shoot broadside from 30 feet?

As an LEO I do have witnessed what hand guns ,shotguns and rifle bullets do to people first hand. I seen people killed with a single 22rf to the chest dropped at the shot the shooter said.

Then and live after being shot with a 12ga 3inch 1oz and 7/8ths of 6s at 10 feet center mass.(hunting accident)

I know one fellow who was shot in the head with a 12ga at point blank and lived, Missed the brain and took his jaw and nose off.

I saw a fellow that was shot point blank side to side with a 170gr 30-30 bullet and live.

A good friend of mine was shot back to front with a 405gr 45-70 (Hunting accident) survived even after taking a couple hrs to get to the hospital

I could go on and on with bullet wound stories.

History is littered with exceptions to rules! Look back at the JFK assasination...people are still debating the "magic bullet theory".

Give me a good expanding bullet for self defense against humans.

I will stick with 230gr FMJ's at around ~875 fps. They always feed and give the best chance for success in an unpredictable situation.

But...there is a reason they make Ford, Chevy, and Dodge trucks.

Ledvm;

Agreed. but the practice is to shoot 'til the threat is stopped from being a threat....

Like I said, I carry a 45ACP where toting a AR15A2/4 would be less than socially acceptable...which is anywhere in public.

On the job ( no longer!), or at home in the dark hour, the go to firearm is the AR, with a 40 or 45 carried to enable me to get to it.

Nothing much seems to change with discussions like this. However, I would like to ask about the effectiveness of the much vaunted rifle bullets. Taking the 223 as an example, as it is probably the most common defensive rifle in the USA, what is the research and anecdotal evidence of the effectiveness of this round, both in civilian and military use? I would think that the bullet would penetrate completely.
Peter.

The old 55 gr 5.56 FMJ bullets failed at the cannelure and would break into at least two pieces, each going off in a random direction. Exits not as common as you might think. I don't know to what extent the new penetrator stuff does the same, if at all.

My experience with commercial .224 bullets of many different types is mixed. The Hornady 52 gr match bullet had a hard jacket and usually was a through and through on everything up to and including deer. Lighter 40 gr V-Max bullets won't go through and through a coyote that often for me, but the 40 gr Ballistic Tip will almost every time. I don't shoot Barnes bullets anymore but I would guess a virtual 100% T&T.

Based upon the number of animals I've processed that were hit by the type of soft point ammo a civilian should carry in a 223, I'd say that chances of a center-mass hit stopping a perp at the impact is pretty damn good. The chances of an exit is pretty good with the heavier stuff, 55 gr and up. If you're carrying the surplus green tip stuff, maybe somewhat less but not a lot less.

quote:

Originally posted by HPMaster:
Ledvm;

Agreed. but the practice is to shoot 'til the threat is stopped from being a threat....

Like I said, I carry a 45ACP where toting a AR15A2/4 would be less than socially acceptable...which is anywhere in public.

On the job ( no longer!), or at home in the dark hour, the go to firearm is the AR, with a 40 or 45 carried to enable me to get to it.

I have a lighted AR-10 with a 3-9 Trijicon on it with a Burris Fast-Fire II on top of that. It is loaded with 165 gr Barne TSX for the first 3 then 220 gr Barnes solids for the next 27.

Definitely would either pick that or 12 g semi-auto Benelli as prefered defense weaponry.

5.56mm is far more deadly on soft targets like people than a handgun is.

Handguns in general are a poor choice for shooting people so I carry a 9mm because if I'm going to carry something that sucks I want the ability to suck 2-3 times more often before it's empty.