I'm preparing to load for .338 Win Mag. I'm currently collecting brass as it does'nt seem to be readily avaiable, and have a question about the brass, Lyman 49 advises me to reload the belted mag cases only a few times, my question is where to look for signs of excessive wear, where will trouble first appear? The loaded ammo will be used in only one rifle, so I plan on neck resizing only. First time I've loaded a belted case, anything else I should watch for?

The alleged difficulties of loading belted magnum cases are greatly exagerated. I have belted cases I've loaded over 20 times that are still going strong.

Are you full length resizing or neck sizing only? Any tip on loading belted cases that you could pass on?

Antelope Sniper is correct. Belted cases are no more problem than any other case. I have both a 338 win mag and a 375 h&h. In the 338, I have loaded from 185 gr to 250 gr, some hotter than expected and not had a case failure yet. Same with the 375. Recently loaded the 375 with 235 gr CEB Raptors at 3000 fps with no case issues. If using the cases in the same rifle, neck sizing is the way to go.

Thank you gentlemen, engourging awnsers!

ES, I don't really do anything special, but here are a few things I try to do:

Use a quality die. I've been using Redding, Forster, and Hornday with my belted mags.

Work you brass as little as possible. Neck sizing helps with this, and if you have to bump the shoulder, bump it as little as possible.

By creating less stress on the brass during each firing/loading cycle, you can extend the life of your brass.

quote:

Originally posted by elkslayer4x5:
I'm preparing to load for .338 Win Mag. . . . my question is where to look for signs of excessive wear, where will trouble first appear?

I check the inside of each and every case, from the base's web towards the neck, with a bent paperclip to make sure there is no groove ringing the case. If present, the groove can be felt a few millimeters from the head, and indicates an incipient head separation. Or so I believe.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
ES, I don't really do anything special, but here are a few things I try to do:

Use a quality die. I've been using Redding, Forster, and Hornday with my belted mags.

Work you brass as little as possible. Neck sizing helps with this, and if you have to bump the shoulder, bump it as little as possible.

By creating less stress on the brass during each firing/loading cycle, you can extend the life of your brass.

I plan on loading a light for caliber bullet, the Hornady 185 gr GMX, and want to stay near as possible to starting loads, as near as the Ruger M 77 Mk II likes at least. Am hoping that the rifle will shoot the start load of 67 gr of IMR 4350 well, as I be happy to keep it at almost 2800 fps, both in terms of not overstressing the brass or My shoulder.

The Belted Mag "myth" or story as you choose is caused because the belted cases were designed to headspace on the belt and the chambers are cut generous and then you have that pesky shoulder where the headspace should be...
So just set up your die / resizing system on the shoulder, ignoring the belt, for minimum working of the brass and setback to the shoulder and you will find that good Belted brass is well, good brass with a long life befitting how it is treated!
Best,
dmw

The biggest problem I have run into with .338 WM is the primer pockets enlarging and being very loose. Sometimes as soon as 2 firings. Other than that, the belts don't bother me much.

Pago, some of the loads listed in the older manuals for the .338 are on the HOT side. This could be contributing to your issues.

Any time you are stretching primer pockets in two firings you are either loaded 'way too hot, or the brass is soft. The case type makes no difference whatsoever. I have used WW .338WM cases for over 20 years and primer pockets remain tight for over 8 firings at 2 grains under Nosler's max loads. Pagosa needs to drop back on his loads a few grains....


.

There definitely is a bit more to loading belted magnum calibers than some shooters are aware of. As mentioned, it certainly is important to minimize case stretching if you want to extend case life. If the shoulder setback is done correctly, it will totally eliminate case head separation.

Belted cases often bulge slightly during the reloading process, and it causes very tight fitting handloads. Case bulge is easily measured with ordinary calipers just above the web. This part of the case can't be resized with any ordinary FL resizing die.

Read this page http://www.larrywillis.com/answers.html and it will answer a lot of questions about what makes belted magnum handloads different.

Innovative, have you ever personally experienced "the bulge", and if you have, would you please share your experience with us.

Antelope Sniper .....

I have been handloading since the mid-60s, and like many other shooters, I've experienced case bulge with belted calibers many times. I wrote a good article about this problem for Precision Shooting magazine (Feb. 2002 Issue)

http://www.larrywillis.com/ps_article.html

This article explains how I discovered the problem, and how I solved it with the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die.

(This article is quicker that posting a jillion replies to questions.)

So just to be clear, you are Larry Willis, the guy who sells the case bulge thingey....

Yes. I designed (and patented) the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die. There are now almost 4,000 shooters using it.

I originally sold them through MidwayUSA, and this die got their 5 star rating.

- Larry

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
So just set up your die / resizing system on the shoulder, ignoring the belt, for minimum working of the brass and setback to the shoulder and you will find that good Belted brass is well, good brass with a long life befitting how it is treated!
Best,
dmw

This, I've been using the same batch of brass for years and size just enough to "touch" the shoulder. They feeds smooth and easy, never had a head seperation. I am using them in a single rifle though.

I have only had experience with the 7x61 belted cartridge in a rear locking Schultz and Larsen rifle. Norma factory ammo pretty sloppy in chambers and if cases are FL sized with shell holder bumping the die incipient case head separation or even actual separation occurs quite quickly. If sized to head space snug to the shoulder by backing off FL die slightly case life is good.

I have experienced quite a few incipient case head separations with the 7x61 case and also with some old cases in my 6.5-06. Very easy to spot the ring forming on the outside of the case where the head will separate, as opposed to the shiny mark associated with the sizing die when it sizes a part of the solid web portion of the case. Also have experienced a few actual head separations in old 7x61 belt cases when on the range where the case head falls out when the bolt is opened and then need to hook the case out from the chamber. In the grand old S&L rifle there was never any indication a separation had occurred, no gas escape etc. Not something you need when hunting but I only used new or least reloaded cases when in the field.

Short answer to loading belted cases, size to headspace on the shoulder.

eagle27 ........

It's impossible to get a case head separation if you use the Digital Headspace Gauge. It helps you set your FL die height within a thousandth of an inch, and that avoids case stretching. (Very easy to use.)

Guys,
methinks that it was a soft brass problem. I'm using new data out of the newest load manuals, not showing any signs of excessive pressure and am not at the max load for a .338wm. I'm trying to move it out quickly but accuracy is my main concern.

pagosawingnut .....

Loose primers are caused by soft brass. This problem can be solved by using better quality brass, reducing your loads, switching to a slower burning powder, or try using magnum primers.

However, it's very common to get case head separations with belted calibers. This is avoidable by using a Full Length resizing die - if it's done accurately. The shoulder should only be set back about one thousandth of an inch, and no more. Belted magnum calibers (factory ammo) is different, because it is originally made to headspace on the belt - ONLY for the first firing. This stretches the case (sometimes by .020" to .030") and this stretching thins the brass just above the belt.



This cut-away case shows the brass thinned on the inside.

quote:

Originally posted by Innovative:
pagosawingnut ....

[ . . . ]

However, it's very common to get case head separations with belted calibers. This is avoidable by using a Full Length resizing die - if it's done accurately. The shoulder should only be set back about one thousandth of an inch, and no more. Belted magnum calibers (factory ammo) is different, because it is originally made to headspace on the belt - ONLY for the first firing. This stretches the case (sometimes by .020" to .030") and this stretching thins the brass just above the belt.



This cut-away case shows the brass thinned on the inside.

Great illustration . . . it is this thinning that I try to identify using my bent paperclip (see above).

And I do this on cases of ALL the calibers I load.

1. The "bulge" above the belt is identical to the pressure ring on rimless cases. It is perfectly normal. If it expands to the point that it creates difficulty in rechambering, then the pressure of the load is excessive for that particular brass case.

2. Loose primer pockets are a result of pressure which exceeds the tensile strength of the brass, whether that is because the brass is "too soft" or the pressure is "too high". Occasionally, you will come across a batch of brass on which the heads are softer than normal specs, but this is rare (Norma brass used to be infamous for being soft-headed). If primer pockets are expanding (which is reflected by expansion of the diameter of the belt or rim itself), then the only solution is to reduce the pressure (or find some brass which is harder/thicker in the head.) These factors apply equally to rimless and belted cartridges (and to other case configurations, for that matter).

3. When pressures are in the "normal" working range with a front-locking bolt action rifle, there is rarely a need to set the shoulder back AT ALL. The elasticity of the brass will cause enough springback for the case to re-enter the chamber without significant resistance. If a fired case will not re-enter the chamber without significant bolt handle resistance, then, just as with case head expansion, the pressure is either "too high" or the case is "too soft". It doesn't really matter which it is, since this is purely relative and the pressure capacity of the action is several times the pressure capacity of the brass (even hard, thick brass), anyway.

4. I take nothing away from Mr. (Ms.?) Innovative's belted case resizer, but it is only of utility if you wish to use belted brass which was fired in an extremely sloppy chamber (which is regrettably common with belted chambers) in another, tighter chamber. Applying the device to cases which are to be used in the same rifle, but cannot due to pressure ring swelling, is simply "tricking" cases which have been exposed to pressures greater than their safe limits into being used one more time. Such cases will almost invariably suffer from loosened primer pockets and should be discarded and subsequent loads reduced in pressure.

5. Treat a belted bottleneck case just as you would an otherwise identical rimless case by resizing minimally. There is NOTHING about a belted case which makes it inherently stronger or better able to withstand pressure than a rimless case. Despite that fact, many reloaders seem to think that it is somehow acceptable to push belted cases to much higher pressures. 'Taint so. If treated the same as a rimless case then a belted case will have identical life and require no special handling.

1. The "bulge" above the belt is identical to the pressure ring on rimless cases. This can happen with different type cases if a poor reloading technique provides excessive headspace and case stretching. It is perfectly normal. It is common, but this is not supposed to happen. If it expands to the point that it creates difficulty in rechambering, then the pressure of the load is excessive for that particular brass case. The case bulge I'm talking about happens during the reloading process - not when the case is in being fired.

3. When pressures are in the "normal" working range with a front-locking bolt action rifle, there is rarely a need to set the shoulder back AT ALL. Not true, although shoulder clearance should be minimized. The elasticity of the brass will cause enough springback for the case to re-enter the chamber without significant resistance. That's right. Remember that the case bulge I'm talking about happens outside of the chamber

5. Treat a belted bottleneck case just as you would an otherwise identical rimless case by resizing minimally. Not true. There is NOTHING about a belted case which makes it inherently stronger or better able to withstand pressure than a rimless case. Despite that fact, many reloaders seem to think that it is somehow acceptable to push belted cases to much higher pressures. 'Taint so. If treated the same as a rimless case then a belted case will have identical life and require no special handling. Ten years ago this was thought to be true, but not today.

- Larry Willis

I'm not going to argue with you, Larry. You have a product to sell and people have to perceive a need for it in order for them to be motivated to buy it.

However, you might bother to explain just how it is that a case acquires its "bulge" subsequent to being fired.

The very first rifle I ever reloaded for 48 years ago was a belted magnum. I've loaded belted cases continuously since then and currently load for ten belted magnum-cased rifles ranging from .264 Winchester through .416 Remington (I sold my little 6.5 Remington many years ago, but maybe it shouldn't count anyway since I couldn't find cases for it and had to reform and cut down longer magnum brass). I've probably loaded 10,000 belted rounds in nearly half a century using Norma, Winchester, Remington, Federal, Bell, and Herter's brass (as best I can recall offhand.) How about you?

25 replies. Only guy who claims it's needed is the guy selling it.

Stonecreek .......

Technology changes things.

Did you notice the cut-away picture I posted? It shows how much belted cases stretch. Most of this stretching occurs on the very first firing. Depending on how accurately you limit shoulder setback, cumulative case stretching can weaken your brass until it becomes paper thin. This thinning happens just above the belt, and any downward pressure (from handloading) will bulge the case slightly. If you measure your cases, you'll see it.

There are now almost 4,000 shooters using the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die. There are also testimonials from David Tubb (12 Time High Power Record Holder) and Craig Boddington (gun writer for Guns & Ammo). If you have more questions about this, you can read the Reloading Questions section on my website at :
www.larrywillis.com

And how is this different from a rimless cartridge fired in a chamber of similar headspace?

Stonecreek ......

As I explained above (with the cut-away picture), belted magnum cases stretch considerably on the very first firing. This is far more stretching than any rimless cartridge will ever have.

Reloaders need to adjust their die height more accurately. This is true for ANY type of case with a shoulder - especially belted magnum calibers. If they did, you would NEVER hear about case head separations. Hope this helps.

Just thinking about this problem with Belted Brass; I remember an article years ago talking about this and they suggested two things to do if you’re worried about it. 1. Don't use factory ammo for your brass supply. 2. With unfired new brass, create a false shoulder by necking up and then necking down to set the shoulder and then fire form to your chamber. This work according to the article needs done because the Brass Head to Shoulder dimension, is not held to good tolerances in Belted brass due to the "plan" being to headspace on the belt. Also the Rifle Chambers on Belted Mags are again not as close on the shoulder specs as non belted chambers. Not sure how true all of that is but if it is, the Two things suggested are indeed corrective actions.
I no longer have one of the great .338 Win Mag rifles but if I did, I think a couple hundred new brass and some heavy Cast Lead bullets set into the lands for the first fire form would be the way I would go. That way I get some good practice in at the same time.

Fury01 ....

1.) Belted factory loads or belted factory brass . . . . they both have the shoulder set back too far, and it's often .020" to .030" It's better to minimize shoulder clearance on ANY rifle case that will be loaded repeatedly.

2.) The reloading technique you referred to is for rimless cases. There's nothing to gain from putting a "false shoulder" on a belted case, because the belt prevents forward movement.

Innovative,
On number 2 I would beg to differ. The article pointed out that by putting the false shoulder on the new unfired brass, absolute Head space would be achieved regardless of Belt, or chamber and the resultant fired brass would be the best fit with the least stretch as one could achieve in firing that first round. Makes sense to me. Not any different than fire forming to a custom chamber.
On Number 1; that was both the point of the article and of my paraphrasing it here on AR.
Best regards!

Also; I think your little belted sizing tool is / would be a very useful item. I wish I would have had one back when I had the 338's! Both of mine were a bit sloppy in the chamber area addressed by your tool. The Ruger #1 I sent a fired case off to RCBS and had a custom sizer made, $45 back then, and solved the problem of finger loading rounds.
best regards!

Damn Skippy, I've been reloading belted cases since the 60's and never realized that I was doing it all wrong and didn't have the right stuff. I'm glad my cartridges didn't know this 'cause they just kept on chambering fine and killing stuff.
I guess I was just lucky that I never had a problem with case bulge nor head seperation. And the brass lasted until I was tired of it and got a new batch.
Nothing more amusing than a cyberspace zealot trying to synthesize a need for a thingie that he just happens to make.
Back on task, to the op, set you dies up exactly like you would set them up for a non-belted cartridge. You'll be fine.

wasbeeman ......

If you feel that your handloading experience is beyond that of mine, and Craig Boddington, and David Tubb (12 time High Power Champion), and 4,000 shooters that now use this collet die ....... by all means, tell us about it.

Not taking sides on this but I have one of the Innovative collet dies for the belted magnums and it is the cat's meow for loading those belted cases. Sure makes my cases last longer!
Makes chambering easy and just flat works.
It does add one more process to reloading.

quote:

Originally posted by Innovative:
wasbeeman ......

If you feel that your handloading experience is beyond that of mine, and Craig Boddington, and David Tubb (12 time High Power Champion), and 4,000 shooters that now use this collet die ....... by all means, tell us about it.

My reloading experiences are my own and as I pointed out, they have served me unfailingly. However, in a previous life, in another field, I was highly competitive. I know all about the folks that have a new and improved thingie mailing them out gratis and, in some cases, paying a fee so the person will use or at least endorse their thingie. I'm sure those folks that you named hunted you up and said "please, please, I've got to have one of your thingies at any cost." (roflmao)
FYI, that ain't a turnip truck parked in my drive. How much did PS pay you to write the article about your thingie? And, as Alexander King pointed out, wrap a goat turd in gold foil and with a little hype, you can sell a ton of it. I would imagine it's much easier nowadays what with cyberspace and all.

wasbeeman . . . . .

Well, that took some imagination.

My post was to help a fellow shooter learn something new about reloading belted calibers. If you review that information, you might learn something too.

quote:

Originally posted by Innovative:
Fury01 ....

1.) Belted factory loads or belted factory brass . . . . they both have the shoulder set back too far, and it's often .020" to .030" It's better to minimize shoulder clearance on ANY rifle case that will be loaded repeatedly.

2.) The reloading technique you referred to is for rimless cases. There's nothing to gain from putting a "false shoulder" on a belted case, because the belt prevents forward movement.

It is disturbing, but perhaps not surprising, to find someone in the business of selling reloading tools who is so ill informed on the subject.

IF the belt prevented significant forward movement of the case in the chamber, then headspacing on the shoulder would indeed be of no effect. However, when the shoulder of a belted case is set (though whatever means) to bear against the chamber shoulder before the belt bears against the chamber rebate, then it is the shoulder of the case which prevents forward movement, not the belt.

With a rimless bottleneck case, it is solely the shoulder which prevents forward movement of the case.

With either case and either headspacing method, it is the amount of forward movement which dictates the amount of stretch (and thinning at the pressure ring).

If a brand new bottleneck case (regardless of whether rimmed, rimless, belted, or rebated) is set so that the shoulder bears lightly against the shoulder of the chamber, then there will be (practically) no forward movement and no stretching of the case.

There WILL BE, however, a pressure ring created upon firing (again, with any type of case). The pressure ring occurs at the point just forward of the head where the brass becomes thin enough and soft enough to blow out against the walls of the chamber. The brass to the rear of the pressure ring is thick enough and hard enough to resist expanding against the walls of the chamber and maintains its approximate pre-firing dimensions. The higher the pressure of the load, the further to the rear of the case the pressure ring will be found. Exactly where the pressure ring is found varies slightly with the hardness/thickness of the case, as well as the pressure of the load.

Attempting to create an imaginary difference in the way that rimless cases behave as compared to rimless belted cases does a disservice to less experienced reloaders. It is only when the shoulder of a bottlenecked belted case is shorter compared to the chamber's shoulder than the case belt is compared to the chamber's belt rebate that the belt serves as the headspacing mechanism (and this is common with factory loads in sloppy belted chambers.)

If some reloaders of belted cases insist on loading to pressures which exceed the sustainable capacity of the brass, which many are want to do, and wish to squeeze abused brass into the chamber one more time, then the tool which Larry sells will certainly help them accomplish this. However, if they were using rimless brass in the same manner, they would equally need a tool like Larry's to assist them with squeezing it back into a dimension of something less than the size of the chamber.

And as to reloading experience, yes, I am quite sure that I have significantly more than any of the endorsers of the product in question.