quote:

Originally posted by Innovative:
wasbeeman . . . . .

Well, that took some imagination.

Wasbeeman: You should feel complimented to be said to have "some imagination" by a person who named himself "Innovative".

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by Innovative:
wasbeeman . . . . .

Well, that took some imagination.

Wasbeeman: You should feel complimented to be said to have "some imagination" by a person who named himself "Innovative".

Stonie, I would be except he isn't the first huckster to presume upon Saeed's good nature and try to sell his thingie on the cheap without paying for advertisments. Now that I look at it, both our zealot and the op have few post in AR. Being a cynic, I wonder if the whole thread wasn't a set-up.
What do you think?

Quote:If some reloaders of belted cases insist on loading to pressures which exceed the sustainable capacity of the brass, which many are want to do, and wish to squeeze abused brass into the chamber one more time, then the tool which Larry sells will certainly help them accomplish this. However, if they were using rimless brass in the same manner, they would equally need a tool like Larry's to assist them with squeezing it back into a dimension of something less than the size of the chamber.

Would that be called a "Small Base Die" ?
I've also got one of those for my PPC cases.

quote:

Being a cynic, I wonder if the whole thread wasn't a set-up.

I was wondering the same thing.

Larry's had 4 posts on the forum in the last 8 years, but he was magically here for the opportunity to hock his thingy?

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
Quote:If some reloaders of belted cases insist on loading to pressures which exceed the sustainable capacity of the brass, which many are want to do, and wish to squeeze abused brass into the chamber one more time, then the tool which Larry sells will certainly help them accomplish this. However, if they were using rimless brass in the same manner, they would equally need a tool like Larry's to assist them with squeezing it back into a dimension of something less than the size of the chamber.

Would that be called a "Small Base Die" ?
I've also got one of those for my PPC cases.

Yes, a small base die does pretty much the same thing as the "thingy" being discussed here, but in a different way and for a different purpose.

A small base die is typically used with an auto rifle. In some auto rifles the action starts to open while there is still some pressure remaining in the case. This allows the case ahead of the pressure ring to expand to a slightly larger diameter than that of the chamber at the point where it rests when the bolt is fully in battery. Thus, in order to reduce it to the size of the chamber, the die must size the case lower on its body than regular dies do. If you've ever used an SB die, you know that it can take a lot of elbow grease applied to the handle of a strong press to swage the thicker brass near the case head back into dimension.

If you were to attempt to apply the same type of small base die to a belted case, which is theoretically possible, I suspect that you would find that the force needed to swage the thicker case head (which includes the belt as part of the case wall) would exceed the practical limits of most presses -- which is why you don't find small base dies offered for belted cases (to my knowledge, although someone will try to sell nearly anything you can imagine.) So, the thingy under discussion here, which I assume is a collet-type squeezer, is needed if you wish to swage the base area of a belted case.

The irony is that nobody (again, to my knowledge) chambers a belted case on an action that is a quick-opening auto or even a stretchy rear-locker, so there is no need of something to do what a small base die does for reloading an automatic.

Pegleg & Antelope Sniper ..........
A small base die can work on a rimless case, but they're rarely needed. They are usually (but not always) purchased by reloaders that don't know how to measure their chamber clearance. Quite often they will shave brass back against the case head - especially with belted magnum cases.

Any tapered case can get reduced by pushing it inside a smaller die. However, you need to push a fired case deep into a sizing die about .100" just to remove .001" from the diameter, and in order to reduce any given area of a case, the die must go slightly BEYOND to reduce the diameter. A belted case stops a conventional FL die from going beyond the belt.

Stonecreek .........
Innovative is the name of my company. (Most shooters have figured that out.) Unlike most websites, every page of my website has my name, address, phone number and email address. So, who are you?

wasbeeman ........
About cyberspace ....... I've found that cyberspace can be a great place to learn new things. Unfortunately, it allows people to be anonymous and show their true charactor.

quote:

The irony is that nobody (again, to my knowledge) chambers a belted case on an action that is a quick-opening auto or even a stretchy rear-locker, so there is no need of something to do what a small base die does for reloading an automatic.

You must have not heard of the Browning Auto Rifles chambered in 338 WinMag then. They have been out for quite some time. Although they are a semi-auto I would think they opperate on the same principle as an automatic. I'm confused again as normal in an AR discussion where everyone knows more than me. Not hard as I've only been reloading for 45 years and have shot competative benchrest for the last 30. I think most benchresters have a small base die in their kit somewhere. I never small base my auto stuff as the rim is usually tore up after just a couple or three firings and the rims are bent from being ejected. Maybe I should small base size them. I just don't know anymore.

In fact I own a Browning Autoloader, although not in one of the belted chamberings (7mm Rem, .300 Win, and .338 Win) in which they were offered. The BAR is a front-locking, non-stretchy action which does not open until the pressure in the chamber is completely dissipated, thus a special die is not required.

As a matter of fact, I've never come across a caliber/rifle/action which required the use of a small base die. While I own a few autos, pumps, and levers, I mostly shoot bolts and thus, regardless of the type of case they use, never have need of anything more extreme than partial full length sizing. I would say that 90% of my resizing for a variety of rimless, belted, and even rimmed cartridges is with a Lee Collet neck die.

I have found that very slow powders will sometimes create enough port pressure with the BAR to cause excessive stress on the action, but this is a far different problem from brass being expanded so much so that it will not re-enter the chamber without extraordinary resizing.

They are not semi's but I thought the Weatherby line of Mark whatever rifles were rear locking?? No??

quote:

wasbeeman ........
About cyberspace ....... I've found that cyberspace can be a great place to learn new things. Unfortunately, it allows people to be anonymous and show their true charactor.

I am anonymous because I get enough junk mail and unsolicited "buy me" crap as it is. And my charactor here in AR is pretty well known: I do not long suffer a fool. Good day, sir, why don't you take your shell game on down the block?

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
They are not semi's but I thought the Weatherby line of Mark whatever rifles were rear locking?? No??

The Weatherby Mark V has multiple lugs, but they are front locking.

There are at least two rear-locking actions which were chambered for magnum cartridges, but their designs probably made them as non-stretchy as a front locking action. The Danish Schultz & Larson is one (chambered for the 7x61 Sharpe and Hart, or 7mm Norma as it was sometimes called) and the Colt-Sauer, which used rear lugs that cammed into battery. Both of these actions were precision-made and offered a locking mechanism as solid as most Mauser-derived bolt actions.

I'm not sure how the Blaser locks, but I think it locks directly into lug recesses in a barrel extension. Locking directly into the barrel is one way to potentially reduce action spring.

As the OP, I asked my question because I have no experience with belted magnum cases, not as some have suggested as a setup for Larrys sales pitch, I could give a rat's butt for his gizmo, I asked this same question on several boards, and on one of them, Larry again tries to sell his gizmo. I don't know if posting links to other boards is allowed here,( a place that deals in lead ) but if you want to read more of his sales pitch I will post the link, if allowed. I AM NOT his shill, just a reloader new to belted mag cases.

Good luck ...

Elkslayer: Your thread was hijacked. (s-)It happens. Sorry for that, and sorry that it was inadvertently implied that for simply asking a question you were somehow in league with someone hawking a particular product. Anyone reading the entire post will realize that is not the case.

Bottom line: Treat a bottlenecked belted magnum case just as you would a regular rimless case. After the first firing, set your resizing die so that the case headspaces on the shoulder. Just as with a rimless case, don't hotrod your loads and your brass will last a very long time without special resizing.

One note on the .338: I've found in loading for several of them that the cartridge is capable of using slower powder than many assume. H4831 is my favorite with it, but there are a number of powders that work well. I always tend to get more consistent results with a slower powder which completely or nearly so fills the case. I've also found that bullets of 200-225 grains are great for animals up to elk size. Lots of folks like the 250 in this caliber, which is fine, but it is not really needed until you go after truly large/tough game. Either the 225 grain Nosler Accubond or Partition makes for a fine all-around bullet, and the 210 grain Partition is famed for performing as well as heavier bullets. Several years ago I used a .338 loaded with 225 grain Partitions (amazingly, without benefit of Larry's thingy) as my primary rifle in taking 10 head of game ranging in size from springbok to Hartmann's zebra. It worked magnificently at ranges out to several hundred yards.

Ditto Stonecreeks suggestions on slower powders.

I Have been using 250's for a while now and just because I stocked a supply of a particular one I've stuck with them as they have been fantastic out of my rifle.

I have used IMR4350, H4831 & 4831sc, RL22, IMR7828, seems I used some RL19 as well but don't remember exactly for what bullet. May well have been when experimenting with 200gr BT's.

Elkslayer4x5, my apologies. As I mentioned, one tends to get kinda cynical after a while. In one of my earlier post, I did tell you to treat the belted case exactly like a standard bottle neck case and you won't have any problems. This was reinforced by several other posters.
So now, a belated welcome to AR.

Thank you guys, I did take note of all the suggestions posted before the sales pitch began, and even noted Innovative's cut away pic of where to look for the first signs of stressed brass. Reading a lot of internet reloading forums, a guy reads a lot of posts about 'belted mag case problems' and I just wanted to be sure of what I am doing, Thanks to all of you for your help, I now know to bump the shoulder back 1-2 thousandths, and stay with low to mid range power levels and I'll have long brass life. Which is exactly the information I was looking for. And Thanks for the welcome.

I use the Inovative Technology die. It is an extra step, but works well. My chamber is minimum spec SAMMI, so this die makes the feeding effortless. Not needed after every firing. FWIW.
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
25 replies. Only guy who claims it's needed is the guy selling it.

57 replies and we have another reloader who uses Innovative's special die, one of the 4000 no doubt

quote:

Originally posted by Innovative:
pagosawingnut .....

Loose primers are caused by soft brass. This problem can be solved by using better quality brass, reducing your loads, switching to a slower burning powder, or try using magnum primers.

However, it's very common to get case head separations with belted calibers. This is avoidable by using a Full Length resizing die - if it's done accurately. The shoulder should only be set back about one thousandth of an inch, and no more. Belted magnum calibers (factory ammo) is different, because it is originally made to headspace on the belt - ONLY for the first firing. This stretches the case (sometimes by .020" to .030") and this stretching thins the brass just above the belt.



This cut-away case shows the brass thinned on the inside.

How can using a magnum primer help from stretching the primer pocket?

snowwolfe ......

A slow burning powder develops maximum pressure slower than a fast burning powder. When your primer lights a huge quantity of powder, it needs to be able to ignite the powder in a consistent manner.

That's one reason why some powder manufacturers recommend using magnum primers. I suspect that the effect on enlarging primer pockets is minimal, but a consistent burning of powder sure doesn't hurt anything. Sometimes there are a variety of things that need to be looked considered - not just one simple answer.

quote:

Yes. I designed (and patented) the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die. There are now almost 4,000 shooters using it.

I originally sold them through MidwayUSA, and this die got their 5 star rating.

- Larry

I have one and have used it and it works.

I do not need to use it every time but when I do... I really do.

Larry,

This will work on the 450M also?

Snake

temmi ......

It's always good to hear from our customers, but we don't want to "hijack" anyone's thread ...... even if this helps explain the most common problem with handloading belted calibers.

The .450 Marlin was introduced in the same year as our Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die, and I've never tried to resize the .450 Marlin case. Its belt was made a few thousandths wider than other belted calibers so that it wouldn't chamber in any of the other belted caliber rifles.

The top of our collet die works as a case width gauge, and it shows whenever a case bulge exists. The case diameter of the .450 Marlin (just above the belt) is also about .004" smaller than most of the popular belted calibers, so our collet die would have slightly less effect, even with the case fully inserted.

I don't know anyone who has bought a belted magnum thinking they will run it a low to medium power range. This is just not right.

quote:

Originally posted by Innovative:
I've never tried to resize the .450 Marlin case. Its belt was made a few thousandths wider than other belted calibers so that it wouldn't chamber in any of the other belted caliber rifles.

The references I find show the belt of the .450 Marlin to be .532" and the case just ahead of the belt at .512" -- exactly the same as the original .375 H&H from which all other belted magnums derive. Is my reference wrong?

Stonecreek .....

The SAAMI designates specifications for cartridge and chamber size (because they can't both be the same). However, the size of new (unfired) cases will always measure FAR smaller than the published SAAMI specs.

I believe the SAAMI spec for .450 Marlin cartridge is .512"

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
I don't know anyone who has bought a belted magnum thinking they will run it a low to medium power range. This is just not right.

Agreed. And my experience shows the closer you get to a max load usually the more accurate the rifle will group it.

I use the Innovative Technologies collet die. I have cases with well over 10 firings on them that have been hard to chamber because of the swelling above the belt. The Innovative collet die reduced this area and my cases now chamber fine. Primer pockets are still tight. I anneal every third firing. Argue if you want, but the die works. How can pressures be too high when the primer pockets are still tight with over 10 firings?