Had one last weekend. I thought it was strange since I always size the brass for a slight "crush fit"...no headspace I thought. I guess I was wrong or maybe just some higher pressure loads were fired in these and they decided to go.

woods will now tell me I need the "thingy"

This brass is from a bunch of about 300 that I wore my last barrel out with. I've been annealing every three firings. Probably 8 to 10 firings on these or more?

I found these while working the entire batch over for the next load cycle.

Thought some might find it helpful to see what it looks like....

You need a thingy!

85% of the thinning at the web happens on the first firing of the case. If you have a chamber that exhibits too much headspace on a new case (the amount of headspace has 2 variables and the case is one of them, manufacturers can make a case with a shorter datum line to case head measurement than another manufacturer), then even sizing for a crush fit can not remove that thinning. All you are doing with a subsequent crush fit sizing is mitigating further thinning.

Annealing will have nothing to do with the thinning at the web.

quote:

85% of the thinning at the web happens on the first firing of the case

That has always been my thought but no ACTUAL measurable proof.

I've had a couple just recently.I know it just happened when I can smell a black powder like odor,right after the shot.On one occasion I felt the gas push on my shoulder on a very cold day.The time it happened I remembered full lenght sizing a case with very little effort.When I size my cases I now pay close attention to the effort required.If I get one that sizes eazily and i know that it's been fired a few times,I'll throw it away.I've never had it happen with a new or almost new case.

I don't anneal for that very reason. If a split neck is the first sign of fatique I get, I'm a happy camper, to me it's like putting a penny behind a blown fuse.

quote:

Annealing will have nothing to do with the thinning at the web.

I know that.

I may get a Thingy.

Sorry HC.

Is that the only 3 out of the 300 or were there more? Are you keeping/using the rest?

For the curious(me), what is the thingy being referred to?

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

85% of the thinning at the web happens on the first firing of the case

That has always been my thought but no ACTUAL measurable proof.

Hey ramrod

Here are a couple of measurements taken on 2 different guns that show a typical progression. The cases were neck sized with a Lee Collet until a crush fit developed and then the shoulder pushed back and case body sized with a Redding Body Die:

30-06 Steyr
new case - 2.040"
once fired - 2.0485"
twice fired - 2.050"
3 times fired - 2.051" (slight crush fit)
4 times fired - 2.0515" (crush fit)

total movement .0115", movement on first firing .0085", so 74% on the first firing


300 win mag Beretta Mato
new case - 2.253"
once fired - 2.270"
twice fired - 2.272" (slight crush fit)
3 times fired - 2.2725" (crush fit)

total movement .0195", movement on the first firing .017", so 87% on first firing


This taken with a Stoney Point/Hornady thingy (measurements listed after taking off the 2.00" of the thingy, you always install the thingy and then rezero the dial exactly on 2.00")

Case head separation from too long chambers and mis-matched sizing dies are the main reasons I use a piece of brass, sized in the sizing die I will use and not a headspace guage, using bushing type dies and NO button, plus polishing the sizer to only squish the base about 0.001", then neck turning, when I build a rifle...

That way the chamber has little or no headspace to begin with, the cases don't get so much brass movement during the reloading/firing cycle and I can adjust any headspace simply by grinding the sizer base slightly or using Redding Comp shell holders.

Plus I keep the pressures within reason.

I've had factory AND gunsmithed rifles with headspace problems bad enough to put the "ring around the collar" on the first firing.

High pressure can still kill a case from spring in the bolt and/or flex in the receiver over time. One reason to use a receiver with the least amount and smallest ports, largest OD for both receiver and bolt and preferrably without a mag cutout...but I can't afford any of those neat toys anymore.

Yeah...I've been pushing those "thingy's" continuously for many years...but in the old days we just made our own out of scrap barrels or anything handy. Basically all I'm interested in is the difference between a new or sized case and a fired case so I don't bother with the "absolute" measurement...the few thousands is easier for me to remember than the total length, but it doesn't make any difference HOW you do it, but rather THAT you do it.

I don't headspace belted cases off the belt but off the shoulder and sometimes it makes sense to fireform your cases first so you don't get such a jump under higher pressure of a hunting load.

Savage makes it easy to re-adjust headspace to fit your dies and the adjustment can be done with ANY rifle easily as you build it.

LUCK

I've actually seen cases separate on the second firing.....an extreme case maybe.....but it lends credibility to the 85% thought!

quote:

Here are a couple of measurements taken on 2 different guns that show a typical progression. The cases were neck sized with a Lee Collet until a crush fit developed and then the shoulder pushed back and case body sized with a Redding Body Die:

30-06 Steyr
new case - 2.040"
once fired - 2.0485"
twice fired - 2.050"
3 times fired - 2.051" (slight crush fit)
4 times fired - 2.0515" (crush fit)

total movement .0115", movement on first firing .0085", so 74% on the first firing


300 win mag Beretta Mato
new case - 2.253"
once fired - 2.270"
twice fired - 2.272" (slight crush fit)
3 times fired - 2.2725" (crush fit)

total movement .0195", movement on the first firing .017", so 87% on first firing

Well crap I did have the actual measurement to back it up. Just hadn't set down and put them in that simple order.

Thanks for the heads up I've a number of sets of measurements just like those. I simply hadn't taken the step to associate the change in length as being basically equal to the thinning.

Could quality of the brass be a factor?

My 338-06 had over 0.022" "extra" headspace and would eat cases in 2-3 firings until I got it figured out...I first used a 0.020" "horse shoe" shim then bought a 0.020" plus Redding Comp shell holder when they came out and that took care of the problem...I'm still working on the first 50 prepped cases from long ago and they have been reloaded at least 15 times each... but it got me to wondering so I did some testing with a 308 Sav SA.

I adjusted the barrel to give 0.010" headspace and used a standard RCBS sizer and standard shell holder using some Midway special "thirds or more" Rem 180 gr Bronze points and a stiff load and just shot them off into the woods at pine cones. I would get the 0.010" case stretch plus 0.002-0.004" from the sizer and button. I would get 3-4 reloads per case before the ring showed up and was trimming 0.012 to 0.014" each firing...I used 5 cases for the test.

Some of the stretch was coming from the base end and some from the neck/shoulder...from that data I extrapolated roughly that 0.040" case stretch coming from the base end for that particular setup was all the R-P cases would handle...I didn't try the same test with any other brand.

I did another 3 case test with a 0.010" plus Comp shell holder and the same RCBS die and went 20 reloads with the same load and I could just barely feel a bump in the case when I checked it with a bent paper clip.

I reset the barrel back to zero headspace for my Redding FL bushing die and one case was still going at 30 reloads...that was enough for my purposes.

I've run other tests with 223 cases which were still going at 50 reloads using Redding Comp shell holders to hold very close to zero headspace and a polished Redding FL bushing die. That is using ONE case reloading/firing etc and basically got tired after doing it all day long.

A slight crush fit on the case shoulder works well in centering the round and using a fitted, bushing sizer helps with reducing brass working. Using a FL sizer also keeps the case runout to a minimum where "partial" neck sizing doesn't...but that's another test story.

One thing I can say is Lapua, Norma and RWS brass does last longer than Rem or Win and everyone knows those brands are much more uniform than the latter brands.

LUCK

Several things could be a factor.

I did notice one thing from the pic of the brass that also could be the reason. See the area of the neck/shoulder junction is not clearly defined or sharp



If your chamber does not have a clearly defined sharp junction (which it obviously doesn't if these are freshly fired unsized cases) then this might screw up your process of detecting a crush fit when chambering sized cases and setting your sizer. My 6.5 rem mag has the same look because my Lee Collet will not size all the way down the neck. I prefer it that way but it does cause a slight crush fit feel in the chamber.

IOW if there is anything causing a false "slight crush fit" feel when sizing/chambering then you could be pushing the shoulder back further than you think. For instance I could never set my Redding Body Die for pushing the shoulder back on my 280AI by feeeeeling for a crush fit because the chamber is so tight the body die will not even size the area around the pressure ring. So I get a slight crush fit feel from that and would still get that feel even if I pushed the shoulder back .010", it binds a little at the pressure ring.

Honestly, I don't know how anyone could figure out the proper amount to size without a headspace thingy! Feeeeeeling for a crush fit could never be as exact as measuring exactly .001" on a metal to metal fit of a tool (just call it a thingy for our BWADT locals, not mentioning any names HC )




Get a thingy

Face it, whatever brass you use and however you size it, it will wear out sooner or later. Of course, if your brass fits your chamber well, it won't wear out as soon.

There is no need to wait for a head separation or shiny ring to alert you to an incipient head separation. Run a wire with the tip bent down the inside of the case. It's easy to feel when a groove is forming above the web of the case and if you discard it then, you won't have a head separation.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I may get a Thingy. ... Sorry HC.

It would help the Economy and with the USA's Credit Rating now "Negative" from "AAA" during obummer's Internal Terror Attacks(from the White House), the Economy needs all the help it can get.

P.S. ()Grasshopper, you can buy and use all the Thingys you want - until the cows come home - but unless you Fire Form properly, you will still have the problem.

woods,

The brass in the pic is sized. My FL Redding bushing die will only size 80% of the neck and I think that's what you are seeing.

The brass did last for the entire life of the old barrel and it just probably is at the end of its life too. I went through the cases and found probably 3O total that were close or as bad as those in the pic.

HC, all of this brass was not properly fire formed as you say. I usually COW it. This brass was simply loaded and shot with the load developed for the rifle. To properly fire form, do you load light loads with the bullet into the lands and fire form?

I found a case that had blown out but not completely separated. This is like the one that I had at the range. They both were extracted as normal but were in this condition.





I think I might be able to get one more loading out of it

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Face it, whatever brass you use and however you size it, it will wear out sooner or later. Of course, if your brass fits your chamber well, it won't wear out as soon.

There is no need to wait for a head separation or shiny ring to alert you to an incipient head separation. Run a wire with the tip bent down the inside of the case. It's easy to feel when a groove is forming above the web of the case and if you discard it then, you won't have a head separation.

I did the little paperclip tool when I first found this but was unable to feel any problem even on the cases that had the visible ring that look like a pipe cutter was run around the head.

Case head separation has two distinct causes.

The first (and most controllable) is thinning of the brass walls at the "pressure ring" due to case stretching. As all experienced handloaders know, this can be minimized by resizing the case only as much as needed for it to re-enter the chamber, which with most modern bolt-action rifles is none (only the neck needs to be resized to hold the bullet securely, although there are reasons that handloaders may wish to partially resize the body, also.)

The second cause, and the one that appears to be the causal factor here, is work hardening of the brass. How many firings will result in a head separation due to work hardening depends on the pressure of the loads, and the thickness, hardness, and composition of the brass in the area of the "pressure ring".

To explain: The pressure ring represents the area of the case wall near the head where the brass becomes thick and/or hard enough to resist the internal pressure and spring back to close to its original dimensions, leaving the area ahead of it expanded to near the dimensions of the chamber which contained it. On each firing the portion of the case wall at the pressure ring expands, then springs back, thus work-hardening the brass in that area. The lower the pressure, the less the work-hardening, thus the more firings (given an identical case) that can be cycled through the case before work-hardening shows up as a crack in the exterior.

Eight to ten firings with "full pressure" loads in most centerfire cartridge cases is approaching the point where work hardening can be expected to start showing up as incipient case head separations. Cases which crack due to work hardening will not exhibit the same internal thin spot that cases which crack due to case thinning caused by excessive resizing will exhibit.

By the way, the "thingy" spoken of in this thread is an invention looking for a use. I've been handloading for 47 years and I can't, for the life of me, see a use for the "thingy".

Your chamber does a pretty good job of matching the external dimensions of brass to its internal dimensions if you'll put around 50,000 lbs of pressure inside the brass whle it is being contained by said chamber. After that, just don't f**k with the dimensions of the brass any more than absolutlely necessary. Whatever the "thingy" might indicate you do to your now perfectly-dimensioned brass represents unnecessary and detrimental f***ing with it.

I have yet to see an incipient or an actual case head separation from work hardening.

It is possible for a groove to be present on one side of the case and not on the other so, the bent wire must be used in several places around the inside of the case.

Not too long ago I had an encounter with case stretching that could not be ignored.

Was making .338-06 brass from 30-06. Seemed to go fine, but the cases were showing rings in just one or two firings.

In the end, I had to neck the brass up to 0.366 before sizing in a 330-06 die. This seems to have enabled the cases to fire form properly on the first firing.

Interestingly, the rifle tested fine with gauges. Very curious.

Bascally all the "Thingy" does is measure the base to a point on the shoulder length, nothing more...it will quickly tell you if and how much your sizing die is pushing the case shoulder back...unless you're lucky or fit the die to the chamber...the brass may fit the chamber perfectly but is sure DOESN'T after resizing with factory sizers...as many if not most of the case dimensions have been altered. Not so necessarily with a custom cut sizer made from fired brass.

Whether or not it is of much use to anyone or "unnecessary and detrimental" depends on their interpretation...I think 30 bucks is cheap money for all the use I get out of my two sets, and it has paid for itself with the cost of brass in the 338-06 alone.

I started reloading in 1957 so have a bit of time under my belt in pretty much all aspects of the sport and I can tell you for certain, the amount of time doesn't really mean much...it is the quality of that time, the USE of the cartridge, and the peception of what is required that counts.

I know people who have been reloading much longer than I have, that don't see any need to do anything but use one or two loads, reloaded with mixed components to go shoot their game. It works for them, I think it is a crime, but far be it from me to tell anyone how to cook their steak.

Work hardening of the brass has always been the bugaboo of reloading and the closer the sizer is to the chamber the LESS mechanical workhardening the brass gets...the only way around "Pressure work hardening" is to drop the pressure. Powley said it many years ago that dropping the pressure 10% will only loose you 5% velocity...and keep your brass alive much longer.

I've known benchresters in the olden days that had such perfectly cut chambers and necks that they only inserted the bullet into the case and let the bolt finish the seating job. They ran pressures so high I didn't want to set next to them at a match. Some only got 2 or 3 firings but that was all they wanted and they won their share of the booty, and I don't remember any blown cases. I gleaned a WHOLE lot of infomation listening to their stories.

The reason that cases start separating at that specific junction is pressure tends to lock the front part of the case to the chamber walls holding the upper section in place at a lower pressure than the thicker bottom section.

As the pressure increases the rear of the case is moved back against the bolt face and stops at some point, but the pressure is stretching the case all along that thickeening length until the junction is reached and the stretching continues at that point...simply put.

I've read at least one person of knowledge refuting this WITH data proving it not necessarily the case. I don't disbelieve the data so there might be something else going on or just an artifact of the components he used.

Right now I'm working up loads with a Marlin 444. I've used ONE case to firelap the barrel and velocity check several bullets and powders. That case has been cycled 40 times and doesn't look any worse for wear than after the first firing, but it HAS lengthened and been trimmed 0.040"...roughly 0.001" per cycle.

I've used the paper clip method AND shown a light down that case and CAN'T see ANY ring nor does the case show a ring or even a hint of a beginnings of one. I keep the pressure in the 40-43KCUP range. I posted some pics on the Marlin Owners website in the 444 Marlin link under "Swap barrel 444", if you're interested in a visual. The paper clip method is just a simple way to "feel the bump"...but that "bump" isn't always there intil too late and only if the majority of the brass is coming from that junction.

As in the case of this 444 AND also in 45-XXX and other straight walled pistol and rifle cases, the brass may be coming uniformly from the case walls...it HAS to come from somewhere because it is continuously being added to the end of the case and getting trimmed off.

Once you get past the "load'um up, CHEAP and lets go hunting" aspect of this sport, the whole balliwick of variation comes into play...WHO knows what is right and what is wrong, or is it just a different set of circumstances playing out and giving you some excellent information to think about.

Everyday I muck about with this stuff I learn something new or have something different playing with my mind...very little is cast in stone.

About all I can say is my data came from a certain set of parameters...it may be repeatable and it may not...the only way to know if it works under your circumstances is to test it your self...I've ran enough test of different parameters to convince me of cerain relativities, but I've always been more interested in the "Why's/whynot's" than anything else...

I continually say "don't believe a word you read, anything you hear and only a quarter of what you see"...or test it youself.

LUCK

Thanks Stonecreek.

I knew woods was full of it

I was thinking that it may just be worn out or work hardened as well, as I am careful about sizing for the slight crush fit yet with the bolt being able to be worked with a fair amount of ease.

My smith says that the only real way to tell if it is sized correctly is to remove the firing pin and spring and chamber a case so that you take that out of the equation.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I am careful about sizing for the slight crush fit yet with the bolt being able to be worked with a fair amount of ease.

So you prefer to just not know EXACTLY to the thousandth how far you are pushing the shoulder back, just want it to feeeeeel right?

The thingy doesn't tell you what to do to the case, it tells you what you are doing to the case. I suppose it's time to get rid of all kinds of gauges from spark plug gap to oil pipeline flow meters, nothing really needs to be measured, just so it feeeeels right! Sure you can get by without most gauges and measuring devices

"What the hell do I need a speedometer for officer, it didn't feeeeel like I was going too fast!"

quote:

My smith says that the only real way to tell if it is sized correctly is to remove the firing pin and spring and chamber a case so that you take that out of the equation.

He is correct...

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
...This brass was simply loaded and shot with the load developed for the rifle. To properly fire form, do you load light loads with the bullet into the lands and fire form?

I use something akin to a Medium Level Load, 2-2.5gr Grains below a SAFE MAX.

I do Seat the Bullet 0.010" Into-the-Lands for Fire Forming. The problem here is knowing where that Medium Level load level occurrs. To locate it, I use the Cases on the extreme ends of the Weight Sorting, and pick 6-12 of them. This depends on how far away they are from the Main Group of Cases. I consider them Expendable and once they indicate the Pressure Levels for specific Loads, then I go to Fire Forming and toss the Expendables.

If the Cases are Re-Formed from another Case, I really like to have a slightly Larger Case Neck and then P-FLR it for the Snug Crush Fit. That can also be accomplished by Necking Up with an inexpensive Expander Ball(next Caliber up) from your Die Supplier.
-----

But, since you already wore out a Barrel with those Cases, you obviously did the Fire Forming very well. (And no Thingy was needed!)

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
The thingy doesn't tell you what to do to the case, it tells you what you are doing to the case.

Verrry interesting!!!

quote:

I suppose it's time to get rid of all kinds of gauges from spark plug gap to ...

Along those lines, I pulled some Plugs the other day from some mowers and noticed they were Gapped 0.032" from the Factory, with my Feeler Gauge Thingy. Still in good shape, so I cleaned them up and reinstalled them.

Rain falling, so I was flipping through the Parts Breakdown to see if I could figure out what kind of Champion plugs they really were. They had a non-crossable OEM Part#, so you would (supposedly) have to buy it from the Mower Manufacturer. Yeah RIGHT!!!

As I was looking, the Spec was 0.040" for the Plugs in the Manual.

The next time I got to that mower, I repulled the Plugs, regapped them to 0.040" and it ran fine. I need to get a few hours on it to see if they burn "Cleaner" at 0.040".

Mentioned it to 3-buddies and they basically said they should run from 0.030"-0.045" and maybe even a wider range. I'm just not ready to accept that large of a variation and am glad I have the Feeler Gauge Thingys.
-----

I HAVE NOT been "Thingy" Brain-Washed(maybe).

quote:

But, since you already wore out a Barrel with those Cases, you obviously did the Fire Forming very well. (And no Thingy was needed)

I was hoping to be able to use the cases for a much longer time. I've been taking good care of them and annealing every three firings. I thought they may last for 50 firings like seafire's test.

I know annealing benefits neck tension greatly but it takes a long time and is drudgery. I wonder if it's really worth it if case life is only 10 firings?

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I have yet to see an incipient or an actual case head separation from work hardening.

In that case, the photos accompanying Rcamuglia's post will show you something you've never seen before.

R: Why don't you carefully section one of those cases (lengthwise) so we can see exactly what kind of thinning may or may not exist at the point of the crack?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I have yet to see an incipient or an actual case head separation from work hardening.

In that case, the photos accompanying Rcamuglia's post will show you something you've never seen before.

R: Why don't you carefully section one of those cases (lengthwise) so we can see exactly what kind of thinning may or may not exist at the point of the crack?

Sure! It would be interesting to see. How do you suggest doing it? Hacksaw? Grinder?

The case that blew or the ones with the visible grooves?

Actually...anytime I need to section a case I just use a motodremel tool with a cut-off wheel, chuck the case in a collet in the lathe or slide the case over a piece of fitted alum or brass in a mill vise and mill off a section...simple...surely your gunsmith can do one for you.

The object being do it one firing BEFORE the case comes apart...just like tightening down a bolt half a turn before it breaks.

Annealing cases requires some form of uniformity in the heating to be of value so I just don't bother with it...although now there is at least one person offering annealing for a very nominal fee, using a machine that controls the time in the flame and two flame sources. I think that information available somewhere on this forum.

LUCK

Most of the case stretch does occur on the
first firing if you don't full resize.
That stretch can be avoided by oiling
the case. No virginia it doesn't increase
chamber pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I know annealing benefits neck tension greatly but it takes a long time and is drudgery. I wonder if it's really worth it if case life is only 10 firings?

Maybe not. Run your own Test on ##cases and see what you get. Depending on how close your Dies and Chamber match-up, you might go a long way.

Many years ago I got 33 SAFE MAX Reloads(150gr Noslers, Fed-215 and IMR-4831) on "3" 7mmRemMag Cases without Annealing. The 33rd shot with one Case had a Neck Split, so I stopped.

When I had a 300 Wby I tossed the cases after 5 reloads even though I only necked sized them.

I cut the cases in half long ways with a hack saw.

This is the one that blew out




This is one of the many that has a nice groove on the outside like a pipe cutter has scored it




I cleaned the inside as well as possible and wire brushed it so the problem was visible




I also just got back from the range and had another blow out. All of the cases seem to going at the same time now. About all that I shot that didn't show any groove on the outside now show a little grooving. They do chamber with no crush fit, but I'm having a problem believing I have over sized them enough to cause this. I chamber a fired case. If it takes too much effort to close the bolt, I screw the die in ever so slightly and resize. I continue this until there is a percieved difference between closing the bolt on an empty chamber and one with the case.


P.S.

This rifle is the 6.5 Creedmoor. I finally dialed in the load too!

Here's what it did with FACTORY AMMO



I duplicated the load with the 139 gr. Lapua Scenar and did a seating depth test and adjustment.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I'm having a problem believing I have over sized them enough to cause this

But you won't know until you get a thingy and get an actual measurement of how far you are pushing the shoulder back.

Good shooting but an obvious case of thinning at the web that is caused the vast majority of times by pushing the shoulder back too far, may be something else but until you get a thingy you will be guessing.

Do you know how much headspace you have between new cases and once fired? Oh.....that's right.....you don't have a thingy so you don't know shift!

Are headspace thingys caliber specific only?

Is this Hornady Lock N Load OK?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=479704