Teancum, I was wondering about using the 44 magnum loads. Same powder measurements/same weight bullet in a slightly larger casing should equil slightly lower pressure in my thinking. I might run into the same problem tho in that I may not find data for the 230 grain bullet. I have been mixing up some loads using the powder weights for the 240 grain XTP from the hornady book. We'll see how that goes.
Originally posted by jeffeosso: I like 2400 but it is a +p loading powder. What pistol are you planning to use
Its an old style vaquero...vaquiro...veqero....how ever the hell its spelled lol. Its fine, I've shot loads thru it that would blow a colt to pieces.....I'm gonna pick up some H110 also and play with that a little......that is if the world doesn't end today
Ken Waters in his book “Pet Loads” page 633, lists loads for 225, 240, 250, 255, and 273 grain bullets using Hercules (Alliant) 2400. From what I see in all my books, loading 45 Colt cast bullets on top of 2400 is not a common practice so be careful.
Posts: 2650 | Location: Lakewood, CO | Registered: 15 February 2003
Elmer Keith (right on some things and wrong on others) stopped experimenting with the 45 Colt when he believed that the cylinder walls were too thin to stand stout charges of 2400.
In a 454 Casull using 45 Colt cases it might be OK. But in a Colt Single Action or S & W Model 25-5 I'd think it an accident waiting to happen.
I'd stock to something like Unique in your Ruger Vacquero or e-mail the Ruger company and seek their views on 2400 in that model revolver.
Posts: 6824 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: 18 November 2007
I've been trying out new loads in a 4.2" .45 Colt Redhawk. Those with 200 - 240gr lead bullets were kind of ho-hum with 2400. The same bullets shot quite well with a modest load of Unique. The M-P 45 270SAA with 2400 is my most accurate load so far.
If you're using a bullet designed for the .45acp you may be better served with a faster powder than 2400.
Posts: 1912 | Location: Charleston, WV, USA | Registered: 10 January 2003
I've burned lots of 2400 in the .45 Colt, and it's my opinion that light bullets are a waste unless you have adjustable sights. I don't remember if the Vaquero does. WW296 is also a favorite of mine when paired with 250 Hornady JHPs. I shot a bowling pin with that load and other than the white wrapping there wasn't much that could have been picked up!
Having said that, I would steer you towards Unique or Blue Dot if you want to shoot 230 grain bullets.
Originally posted by enfieldspares: Elmer Keith (right on some things and wrong on others) stopped experimenting with the 45 Colt when he believed that the cylinder walls were too thin to stand stout charges of 2400.
In a 454 Casull using 45 Colt cases it might be OK. But in a Colt Single Action or S & W Model 25-5 I'd think it an accident waiting to happen.
I'd stock to something like Unique in your Ruger Vacquero or e-mail the Ruger company and seek their views on 2400 in that model revolver.
The Smith Model 25 in 45 Colt is considered a medium strength revolver.
Originally posted by Wheelgunner45LC: Jeffeosso, what did you mean by 2400 ain't h110 or 296?
I take it to mean it's faster burning then H110 and 296 and that you can use 2400 in reduced loads, meaning it doesn't have to be loaded to the maximum whereas those other two you should reduce. 2400 in my opinion is more versatile.
Well this was all Interesting info. I didn't learn what I was after tho so it leads me to a new question. Can I not use 2400 under something lighter than a 240 grain? So what's gonna happen by using the charges given by hornady for the 240 grain xtp under the 230 grain led. And please, if you're gonna tell me not to do it, give me the reasons why. I'm curious.
And please, if you're gonna tell me not to do it, give me the reasons why. I'm curious.
In a nutshell -crimping-! How will you hold a bullet in place that has no crimping groove? 2400 was the original "slow" pistol powder, and uniform ignition starts with a respectable crimp.
I have 3 of those older Vaqueros, 2 in 45LC and 1 in a 44Mag.
When I was loading 300g cast slugs in both the max for the 44Mag was about 2.0g lower than the 45LC using H110. When I've loaded the 230g in the 45LC, and I shot thousands of these, I generally went to faster burning powders like Unique and Bullseye for some lower velocities. Same for the 205g cast in 45LC.
I used to use 2400 in my other 44Mags like Blackhawks and 629 but left that powder and moved on to the W296/H110 crowd. I found I got higher velocities which was what I was looking for, and that powder burned cleaner than 2400. I just looked in my reloading closet and found my old can of 2400 with just a wee bit left in it. It also had a price tag of $7.59 so you can get an idea of how old it is.
My thinking would be just about any load for 2400 in a 45LC and 254/250g slugs would be reasonable for a 230g. slug. But you already know all that stuff about how each gun is different.........
I really like loading those 230g and 205g slugs for the 45LC and they are fun to shoot. Whenever I want to head to the hills in search of furry critters I change over to 300g cast slugs and a heavy dose of H110. Not pleasant to shoot but would hurt when hit.
Posts: 1788 | Location: IDAHO | Registered: 12 February 2005
Originally posted by Wheelgunner45LC: Can I just crimp into the lead?
Do your bullets have a nice grease groove, or is the lube just poured on? I see no problem with the former, but if your bullet of choice is shaped like the 230 grain FMJ, you will have to deform your bullet in order for the case to have a solid grip.
Specifically, you can crimp into a soft lead bullet, however, results generally are less than satisfactory. If you pursue this option, remove the bullet seating plug and apply the crimp as a separate step. As you can see, one has to experiment...
For years I literally shot thousands of the Lyman 195 grain SWC meant for the 45ACP from my three screw Blackhawk. This is the one that has basically a button nose on it. Shot it from mild to hot. Never ever had an issue with a crimp. You can roll crimp into cast unless you're using some really hard like lino type.
The OP said from mild to hot. I don't see a squib load happening there and besides that a squib load can happen with many powders and loads. You just have to reload carefully for any reloading you undertake.
By the way those 195 grain SWC's shot extremely well even out to 400 yards. Took many groundhogs with them too. I also used a 255 SWC for the 45 Colt with equally good results.
I'm not sure but LEE may make some form of factory crimp die, but another solution is to taper crimp.
mmmmmhmm. the 45 acp die can be used to taper crimp a 45 lc case just fine. i use 200 swc's plenty often in my 45's on top of about everything from 5 grs of clays on up through 19 grs of 2400. neck tension is gonna hold more boolit more better than a roll crimp ever will. a roll crimp is there to keep the bullet from moving either forward or backwards under recoil. i'd just turn a canellure into the bullet but you might not have that option. a lee squish die will put one in the lead bullet for you it'll probably ruin accuracy by scraping the bullet to that size as it goes out of the case but it'll put one there.
Posts: 5006 | Location: soda springs,id | Registered: 02 April 2008
Well I made some loads with the 230 grain led. I used 21.8 grains of 2400 and put as much of a crimp as I could. Shot five of em and checked the sixth one for bullet jump. Worked forward very slightly but no where near enough to cause any problems. I bought some h110, and I'm gonna play with that some. As far as a squib, maybe my inexperience is proving me ignorant, but when shooting rounds loaded with 21+ grains of 2400 how could I not notice a squib? How could a squib even happen using that much go go dirt?
Originally posted by Wheelgunner45LC: Well I made some loads with the 230 grain led. I used 21.8 grains of 2400 and put as much of a crimp as I could. Shot five of em and checked the sixth one for bullet jump. Worked forward very slightly but no where near enough to cause any problems. I bought some h110, and I'm gonna play with that some. As far as a squib, maybe my inexperience is proving me ignorant, but when shooting rounds loaded with 21+ grains of 2400 how could I not notice a squib? How could a squib even happen using that much go go dirt?
Don't reduce and H110 loads you may find. I agree with the squib load and was what I was trying to convey. How did those loads shoot for you accuracy wise?
Don't reduce and H110 loads you may find. I agree with the squib load and was what I was trying to convey. How did those loads shoot for you accuracy wise?
Very true bad things happen when one reduces H110 plus use it with a heavey crimp.
Posts: 19880 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001
Originally posted by Wheelgunner45LC: Well I made some loads with the 230 grain led. I used 21.8 grains of 2400 and put as much of a crimp as I could. Shot five of em and checked the sixth one for bullet jump. Worked forward very slightly but no where near enough to cause any problems. I bought some h110, and I'm gonna play with that some. As far as a squib, maybe my inexperience is proving me ignorant, but when shooting rounds loaded with 21+ grains of 2400 how could I not notice a squib? How could a squib even happen using that much go go dirt?
I don't believe you're in much danger of a squib load with that load. How were accuracy and leading with it? I'd be curious if a bullet designed for a mild .45 acp load worked well in a revolver.
Posts: 1912 | Location: Charleston, WV, USA | Registered: 10 January 2003
Originally posted by Wheelgunner45LC: Well I made some loads with the 230 grain led. I used 21.8 grains of 2400 and put as much of a crimp as I could. Shot five of em and checked the sixth one for bullet jump. Worked forward very slightly but no where near enough to cause any problems. I bought some h110, and I'm gonna play with that some. As far as a squib, maybe my inexperience is proving me ignorant, but when shooting rounds loaded with 21+ grains of 2400 how could I not notice a squib? How could a squib even happen using that much go go dirt?
I'm glad your experiment was successful, however, I (personally) would have been much happier to see you start with around 18.0 grains of 2400. And not having seen the particular bullet you're using, I hesitated to suggest loading data.
Regarding squib loads, remember that one of your original questions centered around "worst case scenario". I've had it happen, albeit with IMR4227, not 2400. 30some years later I still haven't an exact idea as to what caused it: crimp, contamination, me...
What I will say is that any experiment must be slow, steady and repeatable (just the way mama cooks!) lest a lot of money goes up in smoke.
Merry Christmas -and may your .45 bark loud & often!
Squib loads. I know what I'm shooting. How loud it should be and how much recoil. I also watch the target for bullet impact. Now if ANYTHING doesn't sound, feel, or seem right...I stop..wait...then examine the gun and cartridge. That means looking in the bore too. If you follow that regime you shouldn't have a disaster.
My first experiment was with 20.4 grains of 2400 behind those 230s. Shot really well actually. 2-3 inch group at 40ish steps, standing off hand no rest. That was awhile ago. Then I loaded the stouter ones and before I shot them I started hearing on this thread about crimps and squibs and such so I just shot a few at a small cedar tree just to see what would happen and if I would get any bullet creep so idk how accurate those are yet. Like I said before, by the fifth shot i only had a tiny bit of bullet creep. Nowhere near enough to stop the cylinder from turning. So I will ask this question.....what problems, if any, can come from the slug creeping forward slightly after five rounds? It was slight enought that if you weren't looking for it you probly wouldn't notice.
QuickLoad is wonderful for playing What if... before you actually start loading. Your 21.8gn load of 2400 with a 230LRN should be doing around 1400fps from a 7.5" bbl. Quickload gives a pressure estimate of around 26k
If your bullets start moving forward, that will give you more useable case capacity. So with the same powder charge, you will get slightly less pressure and less velocity. Seating the bullet .01" longer would probably give you around 10fps less. Again, estimates from Quickload.
Lar45
White Label Lube Co. www.lsstuff.com Carnauba Red high speed cast bullet lube.
Posts: 2924 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: 23 December 2002
Thanks for the info Lar45! Is that a website? Sounds like a very useful tool. Where do I find it? The reason i started playing with the 230s was because they were only $60 for 500 of them rather than $30/100 o f the hornady XTPs. Practice is what makes a person good shooter and if the cheap bullets work then i get more practice. So far it seems to be ago. Gotta wait till mother nature turns the heater back on before i can do some real experimentation. I joked with my girlfriend that im gonna make my reloading set up portable so i can load em in the field while i test lol. She bought it for me for xmas and i think perhaps she might regret it since ive been obsessed with it since i loaded my first round. It has opened up a whole new world for me.
Wow. My 16.9 grain load is pretty mild then . But I knew it to be so, as I took it from safe cowboy loads and below contender loads. Please no one preach about squibs as its higher than published cowboy loads.
QuickLoad is a program that simulates the internal ballistics of a cartridge. You can pick virtually any powder, powder charge, bullet, seating deapth and barrel length combination to get an estimate of velocity and pressure. It's $153 but I find it to be an excellent tool and refernece guide. I use it as much or more than my reloading manuals. Just to be clear, it is not a reloading manual and should be used in conjunction with regular published load data. There are several people who say that it does not model straight walled cartridges very accuratly. I have found that it does give fairly accurate velocity predictions. I don't have any way to measure pressure to see if it's close or not. For modeling revolver velocity I start with the barrel length plus the cylinder length, this should give a fairly close velocity estimate. Once I've chronographed a load, In QuickLoad I change the barrel length up or down until it gives the same velocity as what the chronograph actually was. I write this number down and use it for everything else that I have to do for that individual revolver. (I hope that description was clear. Once you play around with it, you'll see what I mean.)
Lar45
White Label Lube Co. www.lsstuff.com Carnauba Red high speed cast bullet lube.
Posts: 2924 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: 23 December 2002
f the hornady XTPs. Practice is what makes a person good shooter and if the cheap bullets work then i get more practice. So far it seems to be ago. Gotta wait till mother nature turns the heater back on before i can do some real experimentation. I joked with my girlfriend that im gonna make my reloading set up portable so i can load em in the field while i test lol. She bought it for me for xmas and i think perhaps she might regret it since ive been obsessed with it since i loaded my first round. It has opened up a whole new world for me.
. But I knew it to be so, as I took it from safe cowboy loads and below contender loads. Please no one preach about squibs as its higher than published cowboy loads.
