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>>>In firearms, headspace is the distance measured from the part of the chamber that stops forward motion of the cartridge (the datum reference) to the face of the bolt. Used as a verb, headspace refers to the interference created between this part of the chamber and the feature of the cartridge that achieves the correct positioning. Different cartridges have their datum lines in different positions in relation to the cartridge.<<< If I decide to change the conditions of the functional location or fit of the cartridge I think I am allowed to call that changed condition what I want. Then you can call it what you want except that you do not have a word for it either. In the mean time you have screwed up a good thread. Are you happy?
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yes sir, we agree, and i have repeatedly stated, a valid measurement of sometime other than headspace more of a team effort -- you might read what *I* actually posted - and then the piling on to tell me how bad a person i am, because i agreed with your statement that there isn't a word for it - i have included them at the bottom of this post ... please point out where i produced malice or factual upset, BY AGREEING WITH YOU that there isn't a word for it. oh, btw, you certainly may load for wildcats.. i have just a little experience with those, as well,
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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TRY: I started a regular S%$T-Storm here? In a question form I would say no. Head space is a 'trigger word' just the mention of 'head space' sets members off. Not just here but on every gun forum available. http://www.constitution.org/col/blind_men.htm F. Guffey | |||
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Are you happy yet? Proved your point? Finished? Kaput? I am still going to call it headspace and you are still going to piss and moan.
It is easy to tell that you do not use one of these gadgets because you do not comprehend all of its uses nor how it is often used. Since you don't I am not going to ease your ignorance on the subject. | |||
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Most Gunwriters and other "experts" are confused as what headspace is and what Datum Length is. The datum length is measured from the breech to a point on the shoulder of the chamber that is a specified diameter. Not To "some point on the shoulder", not to "half way up the shoulder". Headspace is the space between the head of the case and the breech. You cannot have "headspace" unless there is a case in the chamber. Now I realize tha the Army calls the datum length "Headspace", and the Army is always right. | |||
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funny thing -- i have always maintained it is valid ... just that the term is incorrect.. just like SR (and after a fashion) kawkins, agrees with ... valid measurement -- improper name that EVERYONE agrees with ... and somehow I am the turd because I refuse to be addressed rudely? wow .. i needed this laugh .. one of my oldest hunting buddies is on life support and I had to run up a couple hundred miles to see him.. thanks hawkins .. this is obviously written in humor ... sort of like when, in college, the prof asked "if a tree falls in the forest and no human can hear it, does it make sound?" .. 1: bottleneck carts are a subset of rounds 2: the datum of the 7 rem mag, to start this thread, is headspaced off the belt, not shoulder 3: help me to understand just what you mean by "no case, no headspace" ?? i mean, wow, ....
and, at this point, i see that some are willfully ignorant and refuse to create their term to define what they are actually doing -- measuring resizement --- which doesnt sound as snazzy as 'headspace" but actually describes the process, which would take contention out of the process... let's call it the measurement of resizement - which is a new word that ACTUALLY describes the process ... cuz let's face it, boys, you can change the size of your brass (which impacts how THAT ROUND chambers) but you aren't changing the headspace of the gun ... unless there's a horrible accident ... "failure to warn" requirements met -- I am done - take the blue pill, you'll sleep better opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Headspace does not exist without both the firearm and the ammo. If you use a headspace gauge on a rifle you still do not know its exact fit to the ammo. You only know that it falls within some gauge limit. If you measure the datum lenght of the bolt face to the datum feature you only know that dimension of the rifle and nothing more. If you measure the head to datum dimension of the ammo you still do not know anything but the length of the ammo. If you know the lenght of both the ammo and the length of chamber you will know the fit of the ammo to the chamber eg - the headspace. Since you do not have a Hornady/Stoney Point tool you cannot say you have ever measured headspace. Since by default it does not appear that you have ever measure both at the same time and compared the numbers. You can also argue about the usage of the term caliber and you will not win one that either. What you want the world to be just exists in your own little world and the rest of us will just ignore you.
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I know, I read allot of his stuff over the years....he is really out there sometimes | |||
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Although not technically correct, I have always imagined and referred to head-space as the gap or lack thereof, between the cartridge head and the bolt face. I suppose this stems from my early exposure to the rear locking Lee Enfield (SMLE) rifle where 'excessive head-space' could be adjusted out by screwing another bolt head on the bolt body. These were available in S, M, and L designations. Start with the S head and as the head-space grew between the bolt head and rimmed 303 cartridge head, change to the M head then eventually to the L head i.e. nothing to do with changing the dimension of the chamber or case. Even on front locking rifles, old Mausers in particular, the condition known as lug set back can cause excessive head-space i.e. too bigger gap between bolt head and cartridge head (simplistically speaking). Don't really know why anyone needs to actually measure it or know the measurement, just size the modern bottle neck or belted case to seat in the chamber on the shoulder with the bolt feeling snug to close. Can't do much with rimmed cases or straight belted cases other than seating the bullet so it touches the lands if the magazine length will allow (or cut barrel face back and re-chamber). Anything to close out that gap between the bolt head and case head - 'head-space'  | |||
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Quoting our only AUTHORITY on this subject SAAMI http://www.saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=H
Normally on an unbelted and not a "rimmed" (like 30-30) case this is to the datum line (I'm posting this just for F Guffey so we can get his story on ambling down the aisles at the gun show and asking to buy "datums"  ) And on a belted case it is to the forward face of the belt groove. So any firearm has a headspace that is dependent upon the chamber shape and the case being chambered. For example firing a 280 rem case in a 280AI, the headspace would measure from the bolt face to the neck/shoulder junction, but after fireforming the headspace on that case would change to approximately the datum line. What Ted Thorns excellent pics show is the gap between the shoulder of a new case and the shoulder in the chamber of .0205" (once fired but will grow a little more in only neck sized and fired again). BUT we all know that the headspace on that belted mag is measured from the bolt fact to the belt groove in the chamber. What is pics show is more appropriately called SHOULDER GAP (I made that up so if you use it send me royalty checks please) .0205" is entirely normal for a belted case and part of the reason that belted cases are more prone to case head separations. Much of the thinning at the pressure ring occurs on the initial firing when the case has to expand and stretch to the chamber shoulder. The firing pin slams the case forward, the case is stopped by the belt groove in the chamber, right when the powder and primer are igniting with intense heat at the pressure ring area in the powder column the rest of the case is being forced forward. Hence thinning. In all the belted cases I have reloaded for the SHOULDER GAP has been between .017" and .040". IMO if the SHOULDER GAP is more than .025" or so, then it is time for a rebarrel. Case in point is this Winchester post 64 in 264 win mag   Made an excellent donor action for a 375 Ruger ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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aww, aint that cute? let it set for 4 weeks and come back to stir the pot again? and here I thought we agreed to call it the measurement of resizement... and like adults we let the matter drop. I guess i overestimated the maturity level of the discussion.. you do understand that RIMMED ammo is the most common civilian ammo shot, right? which your measurement of resizement on the shoulder has ZERO relevance? 22LR, all shotgun, and nearly all revolver ammo... so, since you are using a specific condition of a general rule (square vs rectangle, for example.. then trapazoid to bring it to full spectrum), perhaps you should be willing to take a life line to offer you are way out, before we see Schrodinger's headspace. my goodness - Schrodinger's headspace. Of course, everything you now have to say on headspace must be held suspect. forever. yep .. one never knows when a genius will fire a 300 savage in a 308. However, When i see a rifle marked" 308 winchester- i can be fairly certain that it will chamber factory or properly sized reloads of 308 win or 7.62x51 -- unlikely to take 300 winmag, 30-06, 45/70, or some other WRONG ammo .. i had my doubts, but you have proved beyond the shadow of a doubt,the precise depth of your understanding. You, sir, are amazing. length, i believe you meant, from breach to datum, otherwise known as headspace, yes, you know if the ammo fits spec .. again, i assume you meant length -- yes, perfectly formed 300 winmag won't fit a 308 win chamber.. though there are more than a few safety issues if one tried the other way around .. there's any number of blown up rifles when one fires the wrong ammo in the wrong gun .. carter's country has a neat display of a 257 weatherby rifle exploded from a 308 being fired in it .. in other words, only an idiot uses the wrong ammo, without asking me, prove this point. show me a picture of ALL of the tools in my shop, in my reloading room, and that I have ever owned or used, including those I have used over the last 30 years in friends shops then provide proof that I have never made a resizing comparatator set of bushing to make certain my competition rifles actually have proper resizement. In other words, you can't prove your boast, however, I do have JUST A FEW headspace tools available for loan or purchase through several companies, as well as head stamped brass for roughly 1/2 a dozen rounds, at one time or other available through midway... I, sir, don't rely on happenstance and/or someone else's tools to provide headspace for my rifles. Unlike yourself, bragging that no headspace gauge was available for yours this is called a spurious comment.. of zero merit to the discussion, meant to be a distracting statement, in which you falsely attempt to build your position of authority with a known fallacy. is rational, using defined terms, logic, reason, and measurement, discussed by men of ethics, and standards nah.. heck, brother, my designs, headspace dataum, measurements, tools and loads are available to anyone with just a bit of common courtesy. I freely GIVE AWAY fully vetted drawings, accept MY mistakes, and share as much credit as the other fella is willing to take.
suits me fine .. if you are unable to discuss finite technical matters with someone else actually familiar with their meaning, use, and application, you are free to ignore me. however, sticking your fingers in your ears, attempting to prove Schrodinger's headspace, and presenting damn foolery of incorrect ammo introduced into a chamber as proof of said... is, well, amazing.... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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But Jeff, SR4759 is an engineer with the most knowledge of anyone in the world in all matters. I especially enjoyed "if you measure the datum length of the bolt etc etc etc........... | |||
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Smokinj, I am sure it seems that way to you
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my goodness - Schrodinger's headspace. Of course, everything you now have to say on headspace must be held suspect. forever. Is that bit of cutie pie all you have? What headspace are you going to say exists in an unknown rifle when you have no gauges? Are you the type of gunsmith that cannot build anything without headspace gauges? That is build it and get it right. yep .. one never knows when a genius will fire a 300 savage in a 308. However, When i see a rifle marked" 308 winchester- i can be fairly certain that it will chamber factory or properly sized reloads of 308 win or 7.62x51 -- unlikely to take 300 winmag, 30-06, 45/70, or some other WRONG ammo .. i had my doubts, but you have proved beyond the shadow of a doubt,the precise depth of your understanding. You, sir, are amazing. length, i believe you meant, from breach to datum, otherwise known as headspace, yes, you know if the ammo fits spec .. again, i assume you meant length -- yes, perfectly formed 300 winmag won't fit a 308 win chamber.. though there are more than a few safety issues if one tried the other way around .. there's any number of blown up rifles when one fires the wrong ammo in the wrong gun .. carter's country has a neat display of a 257 weatherby rifle exploded from a 308 being fired in it .. in other words, only an idiot uses the wrong ammo, without asking me, prove this point. show me a picture of ALL of the tools in my shop, in my reloading room, and that I have ever owned or used, including those I have used over the last 30 years in friends shops then provide proof that I have never made a resizing comparatator set of bushing to make certain my competition rifles actually have proper resizement. In other words, you can't prove your boast, however, I do have JUST A FEW headspace tools available for loan or purchase through several companies, as well as head stamped brass for roughly 1/2 a dozen rounds, at one time or other available through midway... I, sir, don't rely on happenstance and/or someone else's tools to provide headspace for my rifles. Unlike yourself, bragging that no headspace gauge was available for yours this is called a spurious comment.. of zero merit to the discussion, meant to be a distracting statement, in which you falsely attempt to build your position of authority with a known fallacy. No it is correctly known as an example where the terminology has more than one interpretation and you are trying to dodge reality is rational, using defined terms, logic, reason, and measurement, discussed by men of ethics, and standards nah.. heck, brother, my designs, headspace dataum, measurements, tools and loads are available to anyone with just a bit of common courtesy. I freely GIVE AWAY fully vetted drawings, accept MY mistakes, and share as much credit as the other fella is willing to take.
suits me fine .. if you are unable to discuss finite technical matters with someone else actually familiar with their meaning, use, and application, you are free to ignore me. Finite technical matters ??? You do not know the definition silly boy however, sticking your fingers in your ears, attempting to prove Schrodinger's headspace, and presenting damn foolery of incorrect ammo introduced into a chamber as proof of said... is, well, amazing....[/QUOTE] You are way off base with Schrodinger. The scientist you need to understand is the one that said the testimony of man's experience is suspect at high velocites. Only in your case it is at any velocity or even no velocity at all. When you get frustrated just say to yourself - it is a reloading thread. And you can take full credit for the resizement term. | |||
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Whoops I got in the middle here, didn't realise the post had stopped and got kick started again. Perhaps we all need a bit of headspace  | |||
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I looked at this about a month ago and tried to care.......couldn't I look at it again and still don't ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I caused a real shitstorm didn't I?  | |||
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