Another question on the mystery of Headspace.

I just got my M70 7mm Rem Mag back from having it re-barreled with a new Benchmark barrel.

I have on hand 150 once-fired casings from my old barrel which headspace-measure 2.115

I now have 20 once-fired casings from the new barrel which Headspace-measure 2.124

I won't be able to shoot for a few weeks so I would like to hear your experiences with different Headspace issues, since I am wondering if the "old barrel casings" will shoot differently than the new casing which were fire-formed to my new chamber.

I know that the old barrel casings which are shorter will blow-out to the same dimensions once they are fired in my new chamber, so I am just wondering your experiences-opinions on point of impact/accuracy difference.

Again, the old barrel are 2.115 and new barrel casings are 2.124

Thanks!

Frank

I have some pics in photobucket I'll dig up on new brass vs once fired from one of my 7 RM's

Your old brass is short and will chamber and shoot just fine it will stretch to fit

Ted that would be great since I am using a 7mm as well.

Did you notice any accuracy or POI difference?

This is once fired and a zero'd caliper



This is a new piece fresh from the bag





The rifle was tough to load for but did show much improvement with once fired and then neck sized with a Lee collet die.

I eventually sold the rifle after getting over magnumitus.

.

quote:

I have on hand 150 once-fired casings from my old barrel which headspace-measure 2.115I now have 20 once-fired casings from the new barrel which Headspace-measure 2.124

[quote] Your old brass is short and will chamber and shot just fine. [quote]

Yes, it will, but be aware that the 150 pieces you have previously fired in another barrel will stretch .009" to fill the chamber of the new barrel. That .009" has to come from somewhere, and it will come from the area just forward of the case web. Make sure after you use those 150 cases to size down only far enough to keep a tight hold on the bullet, and stay off the shoulder. If you continue to full length size that brass each time you fire it you are asking for case head separation after another two or three firings.

Fired brass does not indicate headspace. They only tell us what they are after firing. I would guess that your true mechanical HS is probably about 3 or more thousandths longer than fired brass, depending on the brass.

Freshly annealed or new brass will tend to be closer to chamber dimension than well used brass.

The best thing to do is get a HS gage based on the datum and bolt face distance, several makers offer them. I use Hornady, formerly stony point.

I then resize my brass for bolt guns to 2/1000 less, and for my gas guns, 3/1000 less, then check for hard chambering with a stripped bolt and careful chambering of a sized case.

If tight, I back off until several of that batch of brass just close w/o resistance.

I prefer to FL size for reliability rather than neck size alone. I hated it when my follow up round failed to chamber and I lost a good buck, or when a failure to cycle results in a crisis immediate action or an alibi string on the High power rapid fire stages, or even worse, a useless weapon in a dangerous situtation....

quote:

Another question on the mystery of Headspace.

I just got my M70 7mm Rem Mag back from having it re-barreled with a new Benchmark barrel.

I have on hand 150 once-fired casings from my old barrel which headspace-measure 2.115

I now have 20 once-fired casings from the new barrel which Headspace-measure 2.124

I won't be able to shoot for a few weeks so I would like to hear your experiences with different Headspace issues, since I am wondering if the "old barrel casings" will shoot differently than the new casing which were fire-formed to my new chamber.

I know that the old barrel casings which are shorter will blow-out to the same dimensions once they are fired in my new chamber, so I am just wondering your experiences-opinions on point of impact/accuracy difference.

Again, the old barrel are 2.115 and new barrel casings are 2.124

Thanks!

Frank

Head space, no mystery. The 2.115" and the 2.124" is case length from the datum/shoulder to the case head, not head space. The maximum chamber length from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face is 2.125+.010", meaning your old chamber was short or there is a problem with the way you were measuring the cases..

Not a problem but if your fired cases in the original barrel measured 2.115" the chamber in your original barrel was shorter than the new chamber, Good News? 2.125" is the minimum length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt.

The head space for the 7 Remington Mag is maximum .227" minimum is .220".

Point? I would back the full length sizer die off the shell holder .007" when sizing the short chases. I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, I do not secure the lock ring to the die.

F. Guffey

quote:

Yes, it will, but be aware that the 150 pieces you have previously fired in another barrel will stretch .009" to fill the chamber of the new barrel. That .009" has to come from somewhere, and it will come from the area just forward of the case web

"Yes, it will, but be aware that the 150 pieces you have previously fired in another barrel will stretch .009" to fill the chamber of the new barrel. That .009" has to come from somewhere, and it will come from the area just forward of the case web"

Heat space is a mystery to most.

Back to the belt, the case head spaces on the belt, once the belt seats 'forward' that is it, the case body fills the chamber in the perfect world the shoulder does not move forward. it is erased, the new shoulder is formed.

Problem, no one knows how much head space a chamber has when it is a belted chamber, again, the case is driven forward against the front of the belt, when the pressure drives the case back the case body is locked to the chamber, after the case locks to the chamber the case head is driven back and? that is when the case head separates from the case body.

Case travel I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

F. Guffey

make sure they chamber.
shoot them.
neck size.
reload them.
shoot them again.

Leopardtrack: You're on the right "track" (leopard or otherwise).

It seems that the issue of headspace is often confusing, especially when the cartridge is a belted one. With a belted cartridge which has a shoulder, there are actually two different places where the cartridge may headspace: One is on the belt and the other is on the shoulder. If the distance between the cartridge belt and the rim of the rebate in the chamber is less than the distance between the cartridge shoulder and the chamber's shoulder, then the cartridge will headspace (be limited in its forward movement by) the belt. If the opposite, the it will be the shoulder which limits the cartridge's forward movement when struck and pushed forward by the firing pin (striker).

The dimensions of the case belt are fixed and cannot be changed. Whatever "play" there is between it and the corresponding lip of the chamber rebate will be the same from firing to firing. However, the position of the shoulder will change upon firing and will become exactly a match (less springback) for the chamber's shoulder. Therefore, if a belted case is fired in a particular chamber and the shoulder is NOT moved back during the resizing process, then the cartridge will "headspace" (have its forward motion restricted by) the shoulder, not the belt. This is normally the more desirable of the two options since it normally provides a snugger fit and less movement of the brass (and therefore less work hardening and brass thinning at the pressure ring just in front of the belt, where head separations are prone to occur when cartridges have been to aggressively resized several times.)

The "short" brass from your old chamber may, and likely will, headspace once again on the belt. But once it is fired in the new chamber, if only neck-sized or "partial full length sized", it will subsequently headspace on the shoulder once again.

Bottlenecked belted cartridges like the 7mm RM work no differently from bottlenecked rimless cartridges in regard to headspace; they simply have a second headspacing mechanism which may or may not come into play, depending on how they are sized and reloaded. Here's another way to think of it: If you pushed the shoulder of a rimless cartridge, say a 7x57 Mauser, back by .15", then inserted it in a standard 7x57 chamber, it would have greatly excessive headspace. Upon dropping the firing pin it either might fail to fire since it was not held sufficiently firmly against the blow of the firing pin, or it might stretch a great deal upon firing with most of the stretch coming at the pressure ring. However, if you pushed the shoulder of a 7mm RM back by .15", it would certainly still fire since its belt would hold it reasonably firmly against the firing pin blow, and most of its stretch as it filled the chamber would be by blowing the shoulder forward with little coming at the pressure ring. So you see, in a bottlenecked rifle cartridge a belted cartridge offers both "belt and suspenders" so to speak in regard to headspace, while a rimless cartridge has only "suspenders" with no belt.

7rem mag SAAMI and CIP have a datum of the top of the belt -- exactly like 257 weatherby through 470 capstick .. they all use the same headspace gauge and its a measurement of the gun.

what you are measuring isn't headspace .. its the relaxed position of fired brass ..

partial resize till it just closes and keep going --

Load it and shoot

I am always amazed at how much knowledge there is here on AR and how free everyone is with sharing their knowledge with others....our politicians should take note!

Thanks Fellas!

I made my measurements with a Hornady Headspace Gauge attached to my calipers.

I am going to do just as you guys say and that is to load all 150 and shoot.

My question is, when I load them for the second time, this time they will be fireformed to my new chamber, will the accuracy or POI change?? Curious...

If not, then why the hell do we care about have once-fired brass?? What is the advantage?

On almost all of my rifles I can see little gain in accuracy in 1X or 2X ect

But.....I'm a bad shot

quote:

My question is, when I load them for the second time, this time they will be fireformed to my new chamber, will the accuracy or POI change?? Curious...

No one can say for sure what will happen with your rifle.
You get to shoot it and tell us what happens.

With a new barrel you have a new "animal". Don't expect similar performance with the old ammo (although it should be safe to shoot, unless redlined for the old barrel). Start over as far as finding ideal/most accurate load...

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
.........

......

What is that gauge in the photo?

Tim
I will answer for Ted because he may not come back to this thread.
Ted apparently made a bushing with the correct inside diameter to locate on the shoulder of his 7MM Mag. Using the bushing alone you measure it and set your caliper to zero. Then insert the case and locate the bushing ID on the shoulder.
The result is a measurement from the case head to the datum circle diameter.

Hornady makes a similar tool that can be adapted to most different bottle necked cases

Hornady Headspace Gauge

It is a very useful tool for anyone that shoots a lot of old rifles and does a lot of reloading for obscure cartridges.

quote:

My question is, when I load them for the second time, this time they will be fireformed to my new chamber, will the accuracy or POI change?? Curious...If not, then why the hell do we care about have once-fired brass?? What is the advantage?

Consider: You have decided to use cases that have been fired in another chamber, when the old cases are fired in the new chamber the case will form. expand and or stretch, there is a possibility the cases could crack and or split, you could also experience case head separation. You have indicated you measured the length of the case from the datum to the case head and found the old cases are shorter. I said head space length on the belted magnum is a measurement your smith should have included to become a permanent history of the rifle. Problem, most smiths use ‘longer than minimum length’ and ‘shorter than maximum length’. it matters not that with a little effort they could measure head space measurement in thousandths.

What is there to keep up with? There is nothing like using new cases, then there is once fired cases, do not expect cases that have been fired multiple times to behave like new and or once fired cases, I know, there is that old saying: “Cases are not fully grown until have been fired 4 + times”. It was not that long ago when belted cases were fired a maximum of 5 times, cutting down on case travel by sizing the case length to match the chamber length has increased the usual life of the belted case.

F. Guffey

quote:

Originally posted by Suwannee Tim:

What is that gauge in the photo?

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
I made my measurements with a Hornady Headspace Gauge attached to my calipers.

a marketing gimmick for a fired brass measurement tool to allow you to tell when a brass was fired in rifle A vs rifle B or to measure brass A vs brass B....

headspace, is a fixed data point that doesn't materially change from one shot to the next, and is INDEPENDENT of the reamer shown.

SAAMI and CIP measure the datum of all HH belted cases from the front of the belt, and they all use the same gauge -- which is funny... use that thingie on a 458 470 capstick and a 257 weatherby both with "zero" headspace --- and tell me what you expect to get ---

the thingie is measuring the effect of the pressure and chamber of that case ...

but, of course, brass is FAR more elastic than steel (about a factor of 30:2800) and the brass expands to ACTUAL chamber(sure, plus a LITTLE) and contracts --

imagine that THINGIE on a 45/70 or other rimmed cart ... you could shoot a 45/70 in a 45/120 chamber, the "thingie" would measure the rim .. zero difference...

of course, a 45/70 and 45/120 have the same headspace datum...

this sort of reminds me of people that says bullets rise or continue to accelerate for 25 yards past the barrel ....

nonsense.

quote:

Originally posted by Suwannee Tim:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
.........

......

What is that gauge in the photo?

I made a C/L datum gage for all the different shoulder cartridges I load for.

Its ID and OD ground with a full radius EDM'd on the mouth

It allows me to accurately measure shoulder bump....not guess

I runn about -.004

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:

My question is, when I load them for the second time, this time they will be fireformed to my new chamber, will the accuracy or POI change?? Curious...

If not, then why the hell do we care about have once-fired brass?? What is the advantage?

Rarely does accuracy in a hunting rifle show significant measurable improvement with fire-formed brass than with new brass, though it is true that most shooters of benchrest-quality rifles prefer fireformed brass (along with neck turning, weighing, concentricity gaging, and a number of other tricks which benchrest shooters use) to wring the last .005" out of their groups. However, the reason you should care is not so much accuracy as it is brass life and safety.

As I explained earlier, while the belted cartridge will "headspace" (meaning have its forward movement limited) just fine on the belt, the belt is usually somewhat short of the chamber's belt rebate. Therefore, if you resize the brass back to "new" dimensions each time it is reloaded, it will stretch again each time it is fired and will soon create a thin, weak circumferential place just forward of the head (the pressure ring) where it can fail upon some subsequent firing due to being both too thin and too brittle. Your overall case length also increases faster with full length sizing, so you have the added inconvenience of having to trim the brass more frequently if you full length size.

But as with any bottleneck cartridge (rimmed, rimless, belted, rebated, or whatever), if you allow the fireformed shoulder to serve as the headspacing mechanism by not shoving it back (or moving it back only minimally) in the resizing process, then the stretching/thinning process at the pressure ring will be eliminated, or largely so. This will result in longer brass life and less mouth trimming. It will also keep you safer from a head separation, not to mention making it much less likely that your gun is put out of commission during a hunt due to the body of the case remaining in the chamber while the head is pulled off by the extractor (and while you dig the powder ejecta out of your cornea.)

Here is a funny thought

When measuring fired brass fit for "headspace" would this thingie give you a different measurement for different brass in the same chamber? Like rem and win in 30-06 chamber?

It would likely be close yeah?

Then again this thingie would give you a close reading for 308 fired in a 30-06 chamber or 300 savage fired in a 308

Headspace is more or less fixed by steel by the gunsmith. Measuring fired brass may tell you something very important... But what it tells you is NOT the Headspace of a firearm. It is telling you a highly variable reading of fired brass.


If you had new fully resized brass - which in all measurements is smaller than cartridge case drawing and fired in a zero Headspace chamber (you do know that a cartridge drawing is entirely different in the majority of dimensions than a chamber drawing, right? Otherwise the case couldn't fit into the chamber)

And fire them at greatly different pressures-say,44k and 63k (these loads are frequently in the book) and to make it actually relevant let's say we are taking about a 270win

Your fired cases would demonstrate different "head space" by this thingie. same lot of brass, same number of firing, same gun, no outside of acceptable pressure excursions... And this tool would report different "head space" while I could take the gun down, measure once, fire 5(different) *1000 factory rounds and remeasure the same head space (assuming quality bolt gun)- but this thingie would report at least 5 different headspaces

Headspace Can change but not by switching brands of factory brass

I normally don't worry about it till it causes some problems.

quote:

Headspace is more or less fixed by steel by the gunsmith. Measuring fired brass may tell you something very important... But what it tells you is NOT the Headspace of a firearm. It is telling you a highly variable reading of fired brass.

Noooooo
This is a handloading forum and thread.
Headspace can have a different slightly different connotation in handloading forums than it does for a SAAMI gunsmith.

The functional fit of the cartridge case is adjustable to some extent by the handloader.

Many handloaders shoot rifles that have not had a gunsmith touch in more than 100 years. There is no guarantee that the last gunsmith that worked on the rifle was competent. Regardless of the quality of the last gunsmith's efforts it is always in the handloaders best interest to know and understand how the cartridge fits an individual firearm if he can.

Now you can come in here and start your own thread debating semantics of handloading but this thread is about handloading semantics not gunsmithing semantics.
Headspace in gunsmithing is not cast in concrete either. When working with Go- No Gages gunsmiths do not work to a specific dimension, they just work within the limits of the two gauges. When finished the gunsmith cannot not say exactly what the headspace datum dimension actually measures because the he did not use a measuring tool if he only used gages.

If you do not use one of those thingies you might want to stay out of the thread because your will be talking to people that have used it to measure thousands of cases. Your perception of how well the thingie works is not correct.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Here is a funny thought

When measuring fired brass fit for "headspace" would this thingie give you a different measurement for different brass in the same chamber? Like rem and win in 30-06 chamber?

It would likely be close yeah?

Then again this thingie would give you a close reading for 308 fired in a 30-06 chamber or 300 savage fired in a 308

Headspace is more or less fixed by steel by the gunsmith. Measuring fired brass may tell you something very important... But what it tells you is NOT the Headspace of a firearm. It is telling you a highly variable reading of fired brass.


If you had new fully resized brass - which in all measurements is smaller than cartridge case drawing and fired in a zero Headspace chamber (you do know that a cartridge drawing is entirely different in the majority of dimensions than a chamber drawing, right? Otherwise the case couldn't fit into the chamber)

And fire them at greatly different pressures-say,44k and 63k (these loads are frequently in the book) and to make it actually relevant let's say we are taking about a 270win

Your fired cases would demonstrate different "head space" by this thingie. same lot of brass, same number of firing, same gun, no outside of acceptable pressure excursions... And this tool would report different "head space" while I could take the gun down, measure once, fire 5(different) *1000 factory rounds and remeasure the same head space (assuming quality bolt gun)- but this thingie would report at least 5 different headspaces

Headspace Can change but not by switching brands of factory brass

I tried hard but.....I couldn't care less

Its my time and my technique sooo

Unbelievable! I pretty much agree with SR4759

I have made HS tools like Ted's. They work for me.

quote:

Originally posted by F. Guffey:

quote:

My question is, when I load them for the second time, this time they will be fireformed to my new chamber, will the accuracy or POI change?? Curious...If not, then why the hell do we care about have once-fired brass?? What is the advantage?

found the old cases are shorter. I said head space length on the belted magnum is a measurement your smith should have included to become a permanent history of the rifle. Problem, most smiths use ‘longer than minimum length’ and ‘shorter than maximum length’. it matters not that with a little effort they could measure head space measurement in thousandths.

F. Guffey

. I said head space length on the belted magnum is a measurement your smith should have included to become a permanent history of the rifle. Problem, most smiths use ‘longer than minimum length’ and ‘shorter than maximum length’. it matters not that with a little effort they could measure head space measurement in thousandths.

There are at least three different ways the length of the chamber can be measured, two of ‘the ways’ do not include a head space gage, the head space gage is a fixed gage, there is the go, no and beyond, For ever the shooting world has accepted the practice. I was in a gun shop in Irving, TX. looking for parts and bargains when a proud owner of a magnificent rifles ask to have the head space checked, the owner of the shop informed the owner he could not check the head space because he did not have a gage for the rifle. I said nothing, after the proud owner left the store I informed the owner of the store I could check the length of any chamber in thousandths with out a head space gage, and, he ask “HOW?!”

F. Guffey

I would agree if I could find a SAAMI drawing of a cartridge that designated the case has head space, head space is designated on the chamber from the datum to the bolt face, the SAAMI drawing/illustrations show case length only.

http://www.saami.org/PubResour...270%20Winchester.pdf

2.052 –.007 is not a head space designation, it is a case length designation from the .375” datum to the case head.

F. Guffey

SR4756 makes a good point that there is some confusion over semantics (or insistence on a particular definition) in how the word "headspace" is used. It can be either a noun or a verb.

Headspace the noun: The distance between the bolt face and the portion of the chamber upon which the cartridge rests so as to limit its furthest forward position in the chamber. Example "The headspace of the .44 Remington Magnum chamber is .0600" plus or minus .0005".

Headspace the verb: To limit the forward position of a cartridge in the chamber. Example: "The .44 Remington Magnum headspaces on its rim."

Further, there are permutations on how the word headspace is used, depending on what kind of adjective is used with it. Example: "This 7mm Remington Magnum rifle has headspace which is excessive because it will close on the no-go gauge". Meaning that the belt rebate of the chamber is too far from the bolt face to be within specifications, ie., "excessive headspace".

But, if the cartridges used in the example of the 7mm Magnum above were formed from .338 brass and left with a "false" shoulder almost exactly the same distance from the bolt face as the chamber's shoulder, then there would be zero "excessive headspace" since the cartridge would now "headspace" (the verb) on the shoulder rather than on the belt.

The concept of "excessive headspace" is relative only to a set of standards for the chamber dimensions and the cartridge case dimensions. There is no excessive headspace (noun) if the cartridge's dimensions allow it to headpsace (verb) firmly against the shoulder. A rifle only has excessive headspace if the cartridges used in it are too short to fall within the tolerances for "acceptable headspace". However, assuming that the only cartridges available to a rifle owner are factory cartridges which are all within the standard dimensional tolerances, then the rifle will have a condition of "excessive headspace" with the available ammunition (which is why rifle owners have some reason to be concerned that their rifle has headspace (noun) within the standard specification range.)

We can assume that Leopardtrack's rifle has a chamber on which the belt rebate is within SAAMI specs. At the same time, we also know that his old chamber was shorter in the head-to-shoulder dimension than his new one. This doesn't mean that using brass fired in the old chamber will create a condition of "excessive headspace", but it does mean that in order for Leopardtrack's handloads to headspace (the verb) on the shoulder rather than on the belt, he will have to refrain from pushing the shoulders back (more than minimally) when resizing the brass once it has been fired in the new chamber.

When I chamber a barrel, I chamber to where the go gauge just puts a touch when I close the bolt. After fire forming. I check with my gizzy that I make and set my die to bump the shoulder .001 back. I don't use old brass. The bump is set after measuring the once formed brass.

Butch: You're describing pretty much minimum headspace, which is probably what most custom rifle builders use, at least the good ones. As you know, factory rifles typically have chambers that are a bit more generous in size/length because they don't want shooter's complaining about hard chambering if they get hold of a box of ammunition which is at maximum specs.

By the way, a friend bought a .280 Rem a couple of weeks ago in a highly regarded brand of rifle. He bought a box of Winchester .280's, but the bolt refused to close on them. He was fearful that there was something desperately wrong with the rifle (which was used, but in very nice condition.) But he emailed Winchester about his problem and almost immediately they telephoned him in response to his email and said they would send him a prepaid UPS shipping label to return the ammunition to them, along with a refund of his money (or a voucher for more ammo, can't recall which). The speed with which Winchester responded was unusual, likely meaning that they were already aware of a problem with this batch of ammunition.

Before sending in the ammo, he bought a box of Federals, which chambered easily. He compared them with the Winchesters and could see with the naked eye and no measuring tool that the Winchester ammunition was visibly longer in the head-shoulder dimension than the Federal.

The Winchester ammunition was out of spec, but it would have amounted to exactly the same thing if his rifle's chamber had been short -- the ammunition and the rifle would be incompatible.

I understand factory ammo, but I very rarely use it. It should work in a minimum headspace chamber though. If not it could be like your example. I do not need to shoot enough on my hunting rifles that top quality brass is a back beaker.

I guess then 2+2=5, basis the "it ain't head space headspace" argument. I am continously astounded at how often Twain was correct - in that it is easier to fool a man than to convince him that he had been fooled.

Look, you aren't measuring head space, you are measuring fired brass - which dimensions change for a variety of reasons. Hornady didn't do you any favor by calling it Headspace. But let's not pretend that it is Headspace but different in reloading -

Tell you what - people misuse words all the time. Why don't you call the nra and ask them how you measure a guns Headspace from fired brass.

Gentlemen, please don't equate some fools inability to measure Headspace with an actual gunsmith. Or please don't presume that because you don't know how to measure such that no one does

0+.001=.00

yep......still don't care

By the looks of this forum in the past 2 or 3 years more and more feel as I do

Still don't care that you are dragging gunsmithing terminology into handloading.
We simply do not have a single word that best represents the fit of brass to the chamber.
So we call it headspace with the handloading connotation in a handloading forum in a handloading thread. Once the rifle has been manufactured it is for the most part no longer adjustable. Handloaders adjust the fit of their ammo because they can. They will also call this fit headspace because it is a convenient term. They will also ignore those that insist on a fight over semantics.

You can argue all you want about the semantics but semantics does not give you better case life or accuracy. Adjusting your ammo to fit your chamber does that.

Once the rifle has been manufactured and it's dimensions fixed you would have us believe that you only deal with ammo of fixed dimensions that meet the SAAMI standard for the round. Many of us use non SAAMI dimension ammo for our rifles so there is no point in insisting on SAAMI correct language. Many of us have non standard rifle chambers for which there are no easy to find drawings and no gauges. Call it what you will but no one really knows what headpace is for such a rifle. We can only load ammo to fit.
I never assume that most gunsmiths know how to do anything until they prove they know how to do it. I think you are the fool to call others fools simply because we use the word headspace with a different connotation. Get used to it, that is not going to change.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I guess then 2+2=5, basis the "it ain't head space headspace" argument. I am continously astounded at how often Twain was correct - in that it is easier to fool a man than to convince him that he had been fooled.

Look, you aren't measuring head space, you are measuring fired brass - which dimensions change for a variety of reasons. Hornady didn't do you any favor by calling it Headspace. But let's not pretend that it is Headspace but different in reloading -

Tell you what - people misuse words all the time. Why don't you call the nra and ask them how you measure a guns Headspace from fired brass.

Gentlemen, please don't equate some fools inability to measure Headspace with an actual gunsmith. Or please don't presume that because you don't know how to measure such that no one does

0+.001=.00

Wow SR you are trying to put about of words into my mouth. I am merely staying that what you are measuring, while valid, isn't Headspace. You are measuring Brass to estimate resize... A means to codify partial resize mearement and create a discipline.

Good stuff

Declaring rifle x has your greater Headspace measured of fired brass is a fallacy. In fact both may be within SAAMI tolerance (what an appropo word)

All the gnashing of teeth won't change that.

However if you are stuck on calling a duck a chicken, go right ahead. I don't have to agree with you you don't have to agree with me.

It does strike me as a princess bride movie quote by Andre the giant though, regarding the word inconceivable

I started a regular Shit-Storm here!

Not really.... you asked a good question

Some just can't put down the shovel