I was going over some of my reloading steps with a riflesmith I trust and admire very much. One thing I never knew or heard of is what he wrote in an email to me recently about the use of tumblers/vibrator-tumblers and brass cleaning...and what they'll do to a hand lapped barrel. Anyone ever hear of this?

..."Throw that tumbler in the dumpster. If you got to have super shiney brass, clean and hand shine the outside of the case. I just hand clean the powder residue from the outside of the neck with a paper towel wet with a little SuperTech Carb. cleaner I get at WallyWorld. The sooner the better after fireing the case. Tumbling media is abrasive...some tumbling media has extra abrasive added to it. Why would you want to contaminate the bore of a premium match grade barrel with abrasive and fire bullet after bullet over that abrasive and each round you fire you keep adding more abrasive to the system and keep fire lapping the bore??? I know you hear alot about fire lapping out there from complete idiots...including some very famous ones. Here is a guarantee from a premium match grade barrelmaker --- want to ruin a PMG barrel, fire lap it."

After I responded with disbelief, he wrote:

"Makes you want to puke to hear about some of these little custom bullet makers that pour a bunch of polishing compound on top of their corn cob media to put a mirror finish on their handmade bullets. Yea buddy, that's smart...let's see if we can embed enough corundum into the soft copper metal jacket to make it a ceramic bullet. And then they bitch about why their barrel never stops copper fouling."

Here was his advice on annealing:

"I bet if you Google "How to anneal rifle brass" you will find out more than you ever wanted to know about the subject...search the archives of the 1000yd. forum on Benchrest.com. I spin mine at about 60 rpm on a little variable speed motor so the necks heat up evenly then quench them in a 5 gal. bucket of cold water...and yes, I do have to wear welding gloves. Warning -- don't heat too long and let the heat get down into the body of the case...that's why they call it "neck annealing". Depending on how your propane torch is adjusted, it only takes a second or two.

I have a LOT of respect for this guy. He built an amazing rifle for me. He also makes his own dies, bullets, etc. But I have never heard of not using a tumbler (well, mine is the vibrating kind). But I called a couple other guys I know from the range and another bullet maker, and none of them use tumblers either. They all use lacquer thinner and acetone.

I have read something about that, some people wash their brass after tumbleing, to get rid of the grit.
JL

wash it with what?

Dunno, I assumed it was warm water and maybe detergent, just to get rid of any loose grit.
JL.

Used to load for competitive teams and tumbled brass. BUT...always washed cases afterward with detergent and hot water.

WHy would it matter if the brass had some grit on it? The case forms to the chamber upon firing, thus there is a seal created with the expanding brass and the chamber. Sounds like another false worry in reloading.

Well I don't have to worry as I don't tumble.
I guess they meant grit on the inside of the case, getting blown down the bore.
JL

Hey Doc, Though I understand his point, experience has shown "me" that if a Tumbler is used properly, no harm will be done to a rifle's Bore. That of course includes using a "proper" polishing compound which in my case is Liquid Kit car wax. If it won't hurt the Gel Coat on a car, I have my doubts about it ripping the Lands out of a barrel.

That said, I could load mine up with "Clover Compound"(which I don't recommend) and polish cases to a mirror finish. Wash in regular hot soap and water and I seriously doubt there would be a problem either.

I also realize some of the "famed" GunSmiths recommend using Nylon Bristle Brushes with various type sof Caustic Bore Cleaners. Some even "claim" Moly harms barrels.

Each of the above could be used in a specific example and shown how they can create a problem. But if used properly, no harm comes from any of them.

Like most anything we do, it seems to be prudent to toss in a bit of rational Logic anytime we hear something a bit too far skewed from past experience.

quote:

Originally posted by FURocious:
WHy would it matter if the brass had some grit on it? The case forms to the chamber upon firing, thus there is a seal created with the expanding brass and the chamber. Sounds like another false worry in reloading.

I agree with FUR..., the bullet is what goes down the bore, not the brass, so how the hell would tumbling grit on the case damage a firearms bore????
Reloaders have been tumbling their brass for years and to my knowledge, no one has damaged their firearms by tumbling their brass!

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck White:

I agree with FUR..., the bullet is what goes down the bore, not the brass, so how the hell would tumbling grit on"in" the case damage a firearms bore????
Reloaders have been tumbling their brass for years and to my knowledge, no one has damaged their firearms by tumbling their brass!

One needs to think "in" as tumbling residue that remains inside the case without taking another step of washing it away.....

While this is a polishing effect on the barrel it is there. Tumblers polish the nickel plating off of handgun cases after several visits; there should be a message here...... If a person accepts a shorter barrel life even if it is a few hundred rounds that is their prerogative.......... I think Doc received good advise here for tumbling as well as annealing.

I think reloaders should spend a lot more time on the "mechanics" of the brass (uniformity, concentricity, length, etc.) than how much it shines..

Remember the old adage" "All that glitters is not gold."

BigRx

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck White:

quote:

Originally posted by FURocious:
WHy would it matter if the brass had some grit on it? The case forms to the chamber upon firing, thus there is a seal created with the expanding brass and the chamber. Sounds like another false worry in reloading.

I agree with FUR..., the bullet is what goes down the bore, not the brass, so how the hell would tumbling grit on the case damage a firearms bore????
Reloaders have been tumbling their brass for years and to my knowledge, no one has damaged their firearms by tumbling their brass!

Hey guys, you missed the point here. We're not talking about the outside of the brass, we're talking about the tumbling media that was inside the brass, with any added liquid polish which I've used for years. I will be in contact with some of the media companies this week and the polish companies to inquire about the abrasives used. I will also be in contact with some other match grade barrel makers.

Let me just ask you all this: Have you ever come across someone that has similar interests as you and they seem to be above and beyond a wealth of information? Just too smart on the topic for their own good? Well that is how this smith is. Everything he has taught me so far has been correct to the letter.

What he was telling me is that there are still abrasives left inside that polished case like dust. You reload that case and blast it down the bore of your premium hand lapped barrel again and again while all that abrasive dust is settling in the bore, then you punch another bullet down the bore and in the process, embed that abrasive in the jacket and in the bore too, this is enhanced by the heat/friction.

The reason I posted this is because I was wondering if anyone else has heard of it or has experienced it by actually looking in their bore with a scope.

The other issue I DID bring up with this riflesmith is what am I to do about any shards that travel down the barrel from the exploded primer. I have not heard a response on that yet but it is still the weekend.

Ultimately, if there is ANYTHING I can do to reduce the risk or any actual damage to a bore, I will do it. I have no problem adding a rinse cycle after tumbling, or not tumbling at all, and going with his method.

Lucky for me, I bought so much new brass when I was rebarreling all these rifles, I have yet to run a reloaded case through any of them but one. I've always been a "new case" kind of guy anyway. Most of the time I sell my once fired brass to some guys at the range or load it up for my brother or brother in law.

Im not buyin it. Ill take brass that has been tumbled over brass that has not any day of the week. Ive gone without one long enough to know that the condition of non-tumbled brass can become far more abrasive than brass with a high polish. The small pitts that occur can hold some real nasty stuff in it. I also agree that this sort of brass is far more detrimental to the chamber than the bore.

quote:

We're not talking about the outside of the brass, we're talking about the tumbling media that was inside the brass,

Didnt see that before my last post, interesting point but Id still rather have that than non-tumbled brass. I dont think that walnut shells or corn cobb media are realy the culprit, but rather the grit that accumulates from the cleaning proces. Probably a good idea to wash before tumbling.

On the advice of an industrial chemist I have not used a tumbler for about five years.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
On the advice of an industrial chemist I have not used a tumbler for about five years.

And what was the basis of his advice?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
On the advice of an industrial chemist I have not used a tumbler for about five years.

Ok, but why? IS it for reasons posted above? I would never claim to be a chemist but I did get all the way to Chemical Kinetics in undergrad. But the more I think about it, I think I'm going to go to a different style of cleaning my brass. I don't like the idea of even a possibility of "firelapping" my barrel with abrasives from the media.

I'm going to miss that pretty brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

Id still rather have that than non-tumbled brass.

But what is the virtue or benefit from tumbling brass, other than the appearance of your cases? It seems to me that there is none.

I clean my brass at the trimming stage of case prep. I first resize and deprime my cases. Then I polish the primer pocket with the Lee tool -- I fasten the end of the Lee tool I'm not using in an electric drill, and then use the drill to spin the tool in the primer pocket of each case.

Next, I trim each case using the Lee trimmer. I spin the cases eith an electric drill, and put the Lee Cutter and case length gauge into the case while it is spinning. I thn use a Wilson chamfer tool to chamfer the inside and outside of the case mouth. Then I use a cotton swab -- Q-tip -- inside the case mouth. Finally, while the case is spinning, I clean the outside by holding it in a fabric wipe tha

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

But what is the virtue or benefit from tumbling brass, other than the appearance of your cases? It seems to me that there is none.

I clean my brass at the trimming stage of case prep. I first resize and deprime my cases.

You don't clean your brass BEFORE running it up into your resizer? Aren't you worried about getting build up in your die? I've always tumbled a spent case before anything else to help keep the die clean.

I think the only real benefit to tumbling the case is appearance. Think about it. As brass tumbles, the media continuously moves over the outside of the case (I'm only referring to a vibrating kind), but the case fills up with media and it does not have the freedom of travel that occurs on the outside of the brass.

I think the whole idea is to keep the chamber of the rifle clean too with nice polished brass. After I size the brass, I've always RETUMBLED to get rid of all the lube.


I wonder if a wax plug would stay in the case mouth to keep media from getting in. I have dental wax here. Heck, I'll give it a try. I'll see if it vibrates out or leaves a waxxy residue in the case mouth. This would be yet another issue all together I'm sure, if wax residue was blasted down the bore.

What kind of media are we talking about? Walnut and corn or something more aggressive? I'm not a metalurgiste but I can't see how walnut or corn dust IF it made it's way in the barrel would damage steel.

I use corncob. But, all media is impregnated with some form of abrasive. Plus, as I said earlier, I've always bought the liquid brass polish to add to my media.

You're thinking of the dust from the corncob or walnut itself. That is not what the smith is referring to. He is specifically speaking about the abrasives added to the media.

Well, if you buy the cheap walnut media at the pet stores (sold as bedding for cages) it won't have any abrasives in it. It also takes a lot longer to polish up the brass, but it is cheaper.
You still will have the glass particles from the primer getting blasted down your bore (all primers have a ceramic "grit" in them to help them go off when crushed). The only solution there is to use an electrically fired primer, but I don't think that Remington ever made them available for reloading.

quote:

While this is a polishing effect on the barrel it is there. Tumblers polish the nickel plating off of handgun cases after several visits; there should be a message here...... If a person accepts a shorter barrel life even if it is a few hundred rounds that is their prerogative.......... I think Doc received good advise here for tumbling as well as annealing.

This whole deal is a load of crap. I have polished for 30 years and have only used ground corn cob or walnut media. I don't add anything to it. I also polish nickel pistol brass so it won't scratch up my dies. I have left them in the tumbler for over 2 weeks straight before when I forgot about them. The nickel didn't wear off. It chips off around the necks from overworking them but it certainly is not worn off. When my bullets get tarnished I will throw them in the tumbler too. I have examined them under high magnification to see if anything is embedding as well as the to check out the old wives tale of it dinging up the case necks and found neither to be a concern. The benefits of tumbling in clean media are real as it keeps your dies from getting scratched up. Other than cleanliness and pride of the clean appearance it does nothing to hurt anything. Now if you dumping diamond dust into your media then this guy has a point. Just run clean walnut or corncob and just run it long enough to get the results you’re after. Mine may take a week to come clean. I always wondered how some got them clean in an hour or two. They are dumping crap into their media. NO THANKS. I'm just going to stick with what works for me. There is way too much rumor and hearsay out here. My 22-250 is going on 6000 rounds and it shoots super and the throat looks like new. Just load them up and shoot them. Mine will are the shiny ones.

On the annealing that’s it how I have always done it when needed. I spin them on a fixture and only do just the neck to a very dull red in a completely dark room and them drop them in a pan of water. Since I switched to Lee Collet dies I have quit annealing and my necks still go 20 firings before I just replace them.

I find this an interesting discussion and I thank those who have brought up many things to think of.
In my case, I rarely polish cases, but when I do I sometimes add a "rejuvenator" to the media. Perhaps I will rethink it. However, I onw only production rifle barrels and realistically 1 1/2 to 2 inch 100 yard groups are acceptable in my hunting rifles so maybe it is not that much of a concern for me?

Having worn out a number of high power target rifle barrels over the years shooting XTC matches, it is my belief that the benefits of tumbling brass outweigh the possibility that it might cause barrel erosion.

I have always tumbled brass and then brushed out the inside of the case w/nylon bore brush large enough to contact walls of the case before lubricating for sizing. My guess is that any media/polish remaining would be less detrimental to the bore than the carbon and abrasive primer residue which would be left in the case if it were not tumbled.

My 30-06 target barrels averaged 7500 rounds before suffering any loss of accuracy.

Guess I'll continue to tumble my brass and just consider barrel replacement as a "cost of doing business".

Regards,
hm

If you are really worried about it and still want shiney brass. Use a wet tumbler.
I use a wet tumbler for my 45-90 black powder brass because it cleans inside and out including the primer pockets, and abrasive residue is rinsed off.................DJ

what is a wet tumbler?

I dont even own a tumbler. Never needed one.

I do same as that gunsmith stated. I wipe the burnt powder reidue of the neck with carb cleaner, use a bore brush to clean the inside of the neck and reload it.

Thumblers and cleaning the media out of the brass afterwards just seem like more work, expense,and time to me.

OK, just my personal opinion, but I think worrying about the residue from polishing media is plain outright BS!
I do think that the comment about the ground glass in the primer material has some merit, as that mat just be the source of abrasive material that erodes the throats of rifles, especially those in magnum chamberings. That ground glass is heated to a high temperature, possibly to a white heat which is expelled into the powder charge ensuring that the primers flame stays hot enough to ignite the powder. I also believe there is a higher content of that ground glass in magnum primers.
It would be interesting to take two rifles and use a load, one with standard primers and the other with the magnum primers and see which barrel goes bad first. Considering the amount of shooting necessary to do this, it would take one hell of a lot of new brass, primers powders and bullets. Choice of powder and bullet would be critical as well. A good chiropractor might be handy to put one's shoulder back into shape as well.
But bore damage from the tumbling media? I doubt it.
Paul B.

Well, I don't think it's all BS, but I do wonder to what degree it has merit.

If we're talking reducing barrel life from 3000 rounds to 2200 then I don't mind.

However, if this does indeed have merit and we're talking about a substantial loss of bbl life, then I want to know more.

I think it is very odd that not one but many have come fwd and advised me not to use a tumbler.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
But the more I think about it, I think I'm going to go to a different style of cleaning my brass.

Hey Doc

I haven't turned on my tumbler since switching to using a different method for trimming/chamfering/cleaning with the following:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=515804

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=352653

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Mount the Zip Trim on a 2x4, set in your vise, and set case in Universal Jaw Chuck, stick the ball cutter with the appropriate caliber Case Length Gauge into the neck, trim, spin it some more and chamfer, and then use 00 steel wool against the outside and it will shine that case like new. Faster and no more walnut media, etc. You can also do the trick that Hot Core mentioned on another post of putting strands of steel wool onto a 22 caliber brush and smoothing the inside of the neck. Then do like hm1996 says and get an oversize nylon brush to clean the inside of the case.

I will NEVER go back to tumblers and trimmers!


Without guns we are subjects (or victims), with guns we are citizens

Customer feedback on the first 2 wasn't too promising.

quote:

If we're talking reducing barrel life from 3000 rounds to 2200 then I don't mind.

If I were a benchrest shooter, replacing barrels that often, I might be a bit more concerned about barrel erosion. ;-)

I do use the Lee case trimmers, but use a cordless drill to turn the cases with the shell holder that comes w/the gauge. Find it quicker to trim after each firing than to measure each case and trim as indicated. Wood's method of using steel wool to clean up outside of case when developing a load works well, especially when needing to clean just a few cases during load development.

Throat erosion due to extreme temperatures is the real culprit when it comes to loss of accuracy IMHO.

Regards,
hm

He HAS a point IF the tumbler polishing media is harder than barrel steel. Yes, it's an abrasive, BUT just how hard is it? I use flitz tumbler addative and Midway tumbler polish. The minute ammount that COULD get on a bullet or blown down a barrel can't have a measurable effect. Hogwash, bullshit, Hard to believe!

So, does tumbling wear your brass out?
JL

I use dry media so it's not apt to get stuck inside the case. Lyman sells both corn and walnut media that contains jewellers rouge. There's no liquid involved. The media falls back out of the case when finished. To be sure, tap it on a hard surface. I've never had any media fall out when doing this so I can only assume there is nothing remaining inside. Works for me. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

CMcDermott, Remington does make and sell the electric primers as a component but they quit making the rifle that fires them.

I think this is another case of a relevant top-end competitive practice trickling down to the consumer level where it looses its relevance altogether. Sure, if you get a competitive BR rifle you want absolutely nothing to affect it during its max usefull life.

To tell me that's also a problem for a factory hunting gun with your average factory-finish bore is an exageration. It's already so poor (relative to the BR garrel) that a little 1200 grit can't make things much worse.

FWIW, I buy boxes of instant rice for media. Cheap cheap and I assume at this point is has no added jewler's rouge .

I consider grit and such, especially on pistol brass that has hit the ground, to be far more hazardous to a bore than tumbling media.

Having seen what dirty brass, even after a wipe down, will do to a sizing die, I'll keep my tumbler!

I wipe down the brass outside with a damp rag to get any loose abrasive off after tumbling, and there is far more grit from the primer than tumbler residue in your cartridges when you pull that trigger! Besides, if you want to get really anal, a bit of soap and water will wash out the rest of the media residue...just be sure you rinse well and dry thoroughly.

I agree with the guy above that said it was a benchrest thing that had no application to 99.9% of us. It probably doesn't matter to benchresters either, but it is just one more variable they can control, so they will try.

IMHO, of course!

you know, some guys will tell you to use anything...

remember when "whitening" paste was solid to get spots out of whites? even issued in the military...

it's a paste with benzene and 4-chloro-ethane..

or, cancer in a tube.

read labels and msds's... carb cleaner is full of benzene and other EXTREMELY light hydrocarbons... one should take care when even using acetone...


i'll keep tumbling brass, with as mild additives as possible... and "save" exposure to this stuff to when it is REQUIRED.

btw, dove soap, hot water, and a small bottle brush will clean INSIDE the case better than anything else

jeffe

Doc, I agree with your friend completely, and most of the time I treat brass as he suggests. If and when you do tumble brass, it IS important to get all residual grit out of the case, and especially off the OUTSIDE of the case. Grit, even microscopic grit, is very hard on the wall of the chamber, and if you think about it, forcing grit (in effect) into the chamber wall at, say, 55,000 PSI, is not exactly a good way to take care of that part of the barrel. Also, chemical-containing grit INSIDE the case has the potentical to contaminate primers, and I don't see anything praiseworthy about launching it, burned or otherwise, into the barrel, either.

My number one rule about primers, brass,, and bullets its to keep everything scrupulously clean during every step of production. Also, another side benefit of starting out with a clean chamber, then firing ammo that features squeeky-clean brass is that clean brass grips the chamber wall properly, without any trace of case resizing lubricant. Bob Millick elabortated about the benefits of this in an excellent piece he wrote for one of Lyman's reloading manuals some twenty years ago. I still have it.

Another loading guide that dicusses this topic in-depth is Art Alphin in the A-Square reloading manual, which is a must-read. Alphin suggests cleaning brass in a dishwasher to get everything Ajax-clean...........

Your friend is a smart operator. He has my respect, because he's gone into a little known but important set of details that most guys would overlook.

AD

Allen, I think it is possible to some degree that several of the other posters who refer to this advice as BS, or similar may be nonbelievers because they've done things a certain way so long, that they will not change. And my smith specifically discussed premium match grade barrels, not factory.

Regardless, I brought this discussion forward, not to attempt to discredit my riflesmith at all. He is one of the most meticulous guys I know, and if he enlightens me on a topic, I go with it. I still respect others opinions and their right to continue to use whatever method they wish, but when I spend $250-$300+ for the barrel itself, I want it to stay in good shape.

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that ANY abrasives found impregnated in media or in added polish (as I've used) has enough abrasive in it to disturb the finish on the bore.

On the other hand, using chemicals that may contact your skin is NOT such a good idea either, and for obvious reasons, like CANCER. But then again, every time I cook my elk meat or venison or whatever on the grill, all those little grill marks are loaded with carcinogens. That's another topic.

I am by no means trying to convince all of you reloaders to STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING OR CHANGE YOU METHOD. Rather, I am simply sharing information. You all have to decide what you want to do with it. I will keep you all informed after I hear back from the other barrel makers, etc.

I have read a name of a smith that seems to be real popular here on AR, D'arcy Nichols or something like that? Why doesn't someone give him a ring and ask him. I contacted 3 of the custom riflesmiths I used to work with in Tucson...all agreed 100% with my smiths information.

So, my position is simply this: I respectfully disagree with those that refer to the info as complete BS. Are we to believe that my riflesmith made this up? Why? What would be his motivation? What gain? It certainly isn't to sell yet anther barrel, if that were the case he'd promote ruining the one you have I'd think.