quote:

Another loading guide that dicusses this topic in-depth is Art Alphin in the A-Square reloading manual, which is a must-read. Alphin suggests cleaning brass in a dishwasher to get everything Ajax-clean...........

I occasionally resort to dish saop in a pan simmered on the stove. Don't boil it; get it to around 190 degrees and let it cook about 1/2 hour or so. Then dumped out on a towel, it dries alost immediately, but I take it piece with a 3m scotch brite sponge and polish, then make sure there is no water left inside. Bonus on this is it gets all the oil gone from your brass and sckeaky clean is a good way to describe it when done.

I kind of save this for the worst brass, my wife is less than happy when I do it. I tried it on my BBQ burner and could not control the heat to my satisfacton. Don't boil the brass it is too hot.

I just hung up the phone with Jim Borden (Custom Riflesmith/rimrock stocks).

He said "well, your riflesmith certainly didn't steer you wrong. He's right."

Mr. Borden stated he never uses a tumbler. He doesn't see the need, it doesn't make the rifle shoot any better. He uses "krazy cloth" from sinclair or another supplier (I cannot remember name). He uses that to wipe down the brass and alcohol to rinse clean.

He also said, and I quote: "There is certainly a lot of abrasives found in all media and the polishes that go with it. That is why I don't use it." He advised that I take the advice of my smith. And Jim Borden isn't a dull knife in the drawer.

I rough tumble with abrasive treated media. I then tumble again in clean untreated media, 10 minuets or so, to remove the film from the stuff I used to treat the first media. The abrasive can be car polish, Flitz, jewler's rouge, or mineral spirits, depends on what is at hand.

Tumbling with dry media will always leave a certain amount of residue on the shiny shell - but how much, and does it rally harm? Just to get an impression,
a) clean your barrel and shoot a primed case (no powder, no bullet). Run a patch through the bore.
b) rub one of your carefully tumbled cases with a patch and see the discoloration on the patch.
This is about the same the amount of residue you would have found on the inside of the case as well.
c) compare the two patches a) and b).

When you're at the range you regularly shoot between 30 and 70 rounds without cleaning the barrel and without worrying about hard primer residues harming your barrel and the tumbler remains are a nightmare to you ???

I'm not really concerned about these minor amounts of abrasives getting in contact with the bore but I hate to have abrasives in my dies.

On the labels of abrasive bore cleaning agents (Remington, Flitz, J&B...) you'll find "uses sparingly". And that's what I do: tumbling only when the cases look shittygritty, and I wash them afterwards -.
My standard procedure is hand-cleanig with Krazy Kloth or 1000steel wool or SC with a final cleaning with cloth/paper (toilet paper will do), including brushing of the inner of the neck.

If you have the right tumbler (like the RCBS drum) and the right media (non- agressive fluid plus, optional, steel or glass beads) fluid tumbling yields great results.
If you have the right cleaner and a bit of time at hand, you do not even need a tumbler.
Anyway- the last step in wet cleaning is (before drying at low temperatures) RINSING.

Doc, Jim Borden might have mentioned Haydon's ( http://www.shooters-supply.com ) and/or Bruno's ( http://www.brunoshooters.com ).

Annealing: I find, after a lot of experimenting, a lead pot the best (because it's the safest) method to anneal case necks.

I'm not saying its BS, I am just suggesting that it is more relevant to a BR rifle or a $14,000 D'Arcy Echols/David Miller creation than your average Wally-world Remington or Winchester. Geeze, don't you guys ever differentiate between the two (or are you so absorbed with the un-obtainable for most of us that you can't discuss a normal guy's issues)?

Doc, if you ask a top-fuel engine builder his opinion of cast pistons he's gonna tell you they suck. Period. If you ask him if he put a forged piston in his lawnmower he'll look at you like you're some kind of smartass (guilty, I guess).

Its about application, as always.

P.S. This post has nothing to do with lawnmower racing!!

Doc:

quote:

I still respect others opinions and their right to continue to use whatever method they wish, but when I spend $250-$300+ for the barrel itself, I want it to stay in good shape.

We all want to get maximum bang for the buck (pun intended) from our expensive target barrels, and, as I previously mentioned, different disciplines require different standards. In cross-the coarse competition, I squeeze about 7500 rounds from the same barrels you get 3000 rounds or less out of since true moa accuracy is sufficient; .25 moa accuracy is not necessary to clean the NM coarse which is shot from unsupported positions. Hunting accuracy is less demanding, yet.

"I am by no means trying to convince all of you reloaders to STOP WHAT YOU'RE DOING OR CHANGE YOU METHOD."

Don't think anyone is trying to change what others do, just offering a different perspective.

This is an interesting topic, now each can weigh the different opinions and decide which method suits their needs best.

Regards,
hm

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I'm not saying its BS, I am just suggesting that it is more relevant to a BR rifle or a $14,000 D'Arcy Echols/David Miller creation than your average Wally-world Remington or Winchester. Geeze, don't you guys ever differentiate between the two (or are you so absorbed with the un-obtainable for most of us that you can't discuss a normal guy's issues)?

Tiggertate, I have mentioned it more than once or even twice. This discussion has NOTHING to do with FACTORY barrels. It has only to do with premium match grade barrels. If such a barrel is un-obtainable to you or "most" of you that is not my problem, if that is what you are insinuating. I opened the discussion to all, but if you do not own a match grade hand lapped barrel then you shouldn't be concerned one way or the other. I respect your input, however, please do not "victimize" yourself and please don't speak for "most" others and consider yourselves all "normal" where someone that has a match grade barrel is somehow abnormal. I certainly haven't done that to you. I do not shoot bench rest, but my barrels cost plenty and I still shoot a lot for fun. I did read where you feel it is more relevant for benchrest or an expensive Miller/Echols creation, so the theory in question must have merit. But why draw the line with these 2 smiths or a benchrest shooter? I do not feel that my Hart or Lilja or Broughton, or Krieger, or PacNor, or Shilens are any less of a barrel than the ones they use.

FWIW, I will apologize to you ahead of time if I read into your post incorrectly because I thought I made it clear in advance that factory barrels are not even part of this thread.

Doc, lighten up. I picked two rifle makers and one sport to make an analogy without a phonebook-sized list of quality guns/gunmakers. For the record I'm a perp, not a victim and my guns range from worse than anything Wally-world ever sold to some pretty nice stuff. Sorry about missing where you delineated between custom lapped barrels and factory barrels. I was addressing the tone of many posts perhaps, not just yours.

Harry,...
for a riding riding in a hunting car or 4 wheeler, dust collecting in the barrel, and a shot fired would have a LOAD more silica in the barrel than whatever my walnut shells might leave in the chamber.....


can't imagine how bad that would be at a corpus or san antonio benchrest range, in july, during a shoot....


oh well.. there's this thing called PII

jeffe

From Hart barrels:

"We really do not want to get in the middle of this
debate. I will however tell you that we do not use
abrasives and we clean our bullets with lacquer
thinner."

From Shilen:

"I do not see how any abrasive material on the case body, would ever contaminate a bore of the barrel. So , I do not agree with his opinion.

I do agree that you should not fire lap any custom barrel. Bullet polishing compound is not abrasive enough to make any substantial impact on barrel life.

Now you have another opinion."

From Lilja:

" I would agree completely with the fire-lapping comments. That is a terrible abuse of a good barrel. But tumbling cases - I don't know about that. Ditto on the media used on bullets."
­­­­

Yeah Jeffe, I got scolded once by a top gunsmith for using a nylon coated rod for all the grit imbedded in the rod and what it did to my barrel. Later that day we were going coyote shooting in his truck whereupon he put his freshly cleaned & oiled A#1 coyote rifle muzzle down on the floorboard carpet which was clearly full of sand.
Well, at least the throat wasn't affected; just the crown! Everyone has at least one pet gripe, I guess.

FWIW Doc, I did find the comment interesting and think there is a point to be made. To what extent, I don't know. I'm not that smart.

I quit indescriminant fire-lapping years ago for all the stated reasons. On the other hand, my crappy Adams & Benett 416 Rem barrel shoots 5 shot 1" (outside to outside) groups on demand but only after I ran about 50 fine-grit bullets through it. Must have been a hell of a burr.

Hey, that brings up another excellent point! What the hell are we all supposed to do on this whole cleaning rod crap?!!

One guy tells me to NOT use a coated rod because it collects debris and grit and can thus scratch the barrel! The next guy advises I only use a softer stainless steel cleaning rod like a pro shot!

YOU CAN'T WIN. I use Bore Tech rods. Dewey are great. I have a pro shot for a 243.

Anyone see on TV the add for the NEW TIPTON CARBON CLEANING ROD? They bring up the arguments I just mention and of course claim to be THE SOLUTION.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
FWIW Doc, I did find the comment interesting and think there is a point to be made. To what extent, I don't know. I'm not that smart.

Well, I think I have just decided to say, &*%$ it. I'll just shoot the barrels till there shot out, then replace them. After all, it's only money right?

An old Western "Super Match" .38 Special casing that started life nickel plated.........

50 plus reloads with tumbling inbetween with retirement coming from neck splits that can be seen.

Note thin nickel still in upper neck area.. Nickel plating in recess groove just above rim is still perfect as well as lettering recesses. Places tumbling media has a hard time to reach.

I got in the habit of pinching the rod and pulling it thru bare fingers before each cleaning session. It isn't much but it does catch the big stuff.

I shoot rifle for the most part and I don't think I'll ever get 50 loads from a single case however, I wonder how much of that is nickel being worn off by more nickel banging around in the tumbler? The areas mentioned are also innaccessible to damage from another case.

I say put a single nickel NEW .38 in your tumbler and run it for 50 x however long you tumble a case and see what happens? Assuming you give a s--t?

A couple of tablespoons of denatured alcohol in the corn cob media will cause the dust to settle to the sides of the bowl and leave your brass shiney. I've never seen the need for abrasive additives in the media, and I've shined up some pretty ugly brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Hey, that brings up another excellent point! What the hell are we all supposed to do on this whole cleaning rod crap?!!...

Hey Doc, You fairly well read my mind, but don't stop at the rod.

My question is, since this is such a nice barrel, what did the guy recommend you do to clean it? Real curious about his method.

quote:

Originally posted by BigRx:
50 plus reloads with tumbling inbetween with retirement coming from neck splits that can be seen.

Note thin nickel still in upper neck area.. Nickel plating in recess groove just above rim is still perfect as well as lettering recesses. ...

Hey BigRx, I see what you are talking about, but I would suggest the big wear factor is due to the expansion during Firing, contraction during Resizing, expansion during Flaring and contraction during Crimping. I would believe all of that induces more "wear" on the Nickle plating at the mouth than tumbling.

I've had one batch of bad Nickle Plated cases in all my reloading. Still have a few left that get trashed after the First Firing. When the mouth Expands during firing, it actually loosens the "bond" between the Nickle and the Brass. Then when you Resize it, chunks of the Nickle can pop loose. Of course that then requires the Corn cob to be tossed.
---

For those of you still following the Tumble vs. No Tumble concern, if you will switch to "any" car wax that says it is SAFE to use on a Gel Coat Finish,(like the Liquid Kit) then you can forget about your Polishing Media inducing any "grit". If it won't scratch Gel-Coat, it sure won't hurt steel.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

My question is, since this is such a nice barrel, what did the guy recommend you do to clean it? Real curious about his method.

Bore Tech cleaning rod, Mike Lucas bore guide, 2/3 Shooters Choice mixed with 1/3 Kroil and ONLY push rod in bullet direction with patches until barrel good a soaked (about 3-4 wet patches), clean with to and from strokes with bronze brush, dry patch. 2 wet patches, dry, and so on till clean.

Yea, the whole "don't use a nylon brush, don't use a tumbler, starts to not make much sense if you are going to use a "coated" cleaning rod. But, hey, like I said...I will just shoot the barrel till it's shot out, then get a new one.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Bore Tech cleaning rod, Mike Lucas bore guide, 2/3 Shooters Choice mixed with 1/3 Kroil and ONLY push rod in bullet direction with patches until barrel good a soaked (about 3-4 wet patches), clean with to and from strokes with bronze brush, dry patch. 2 wet patches, dry, and so on till clean....

Interesting that he would say to use a "Brass/Bronze Brush" to "grind" that Copper and Powder Residue "to and fro" in the Bore.

I do agree the Shooter's Choice is one of the "milder" chemical cleaners available.

Did he happen to mention how many shots between cleanings?

And by "Patches", does he specify a particular type of material? Perhaps Cotton T-shirt material washed twice with Surf and rinsed with a Fabric Softener? Not being mean spirited with the question, because I use Paper Patches since they actually have a bit more of an "abrasive" nature to them than Cotton.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Yea, the whole "don't use a nylon brush, don't use a tumbler, starts to not make much sense if you are going to use a "coated" cleaning rod. But, hey, like I said...I will just shoot the barrel till it's shot out, then get a new one.

Yes, some of this stuff is strange to a person who uses a slightly different method and has done so for many years. But, we will either "learn from it" or get a bunch of good laughs.

Hey, someone mentioned Kaboom. WE have some. I also had some NAPA carb cleaner. Take a look at this once fired .270 brass cleaned with Kaboom. This round was fired the same time as the uncleaned one, about 6 months ago. There was still a tiny amount of carbon still on the neck, but not much. That carb cleaner took it right off. Here is a picture of 2 brass fired the same day. The clean one took about 10 seconds to wipe down total, not really, more like 5-6. Screw the tumbler! That crap takes too long and I've always hated that process anyway!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hot Core:

Did he happen to mention how many shots between cleanings?

And by "Patches", does he specify a particular type of material?

QUOTE]

Usually 20-30 b/w cleanings. Cotton patches. What do you think of my Kaboom wash, Carb cleaner rinse .270 brass? That was FAST. I could clean 100 like that probably 10 minutes now that I see how easy it is. That carb cleaner took the carbon off with one swipe around the neck with a paper towel.

Well, that is enough evidence for me. Anyone want a tumbler?

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
...Usually 20-30 b/w cleanings. Cotton patches. ...

Interesting indeed. I clean and re-lub the bore each 6-9 shots.

I'd heard one of these folks talk about "washing" the cotton and on and on. Can't remember where I saw that. Fine with me, but I'll stick with my good old abrasive Paper Patches.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
... What do you think of my Kaboom wash, Carb cleaner rinse .270 brass? That was FAST. I could clean 100 like that probably 10 minutes now that I see how easy it is. That carb cleaner took the carbon off with one swipe around the neck with a paper towel. ...

Well, I think "the outside" looks darn good!

You might want to check with the manufacturer for an MSDS Sheet. If it happens to have "any" ammonia in it(the Kaboom) it will cause embrittlement with your cases. That then results in small cracks in the Casewalls. Then as the cartridge is shot, a high pressure jet will come through the case at that crack with the result being similar to a "Micro Tourch" blasting against the Chamber-wall. It can actually "cut" the Chamber - voice of experience.
---

So, does this GunSmith believe there is "no need" to clean the Powder Residue from the inside of the case?

Well Doc,

I dont think the subject is total BS. I find it interesting and thank you. BUT! Ive tried the handwash thing and am much happier using a tumbler, handwashing is too time consuming and not effective enough IMHO, and I think that both the outside and the inside of cases become cleaner by tumbling, your spit shines may vary.. Just stating my own experience.

I will say however that I do not use ANY liquids, polish, solvents or whatever in my media as I feel that would be a magnet for holding unwanted grit. I want my media as dry as the sahara, and if I were concerned about abrasive grit inside the case I would possibly try a shot of compressed air to be rid of it. But if it comes to that point, then I expect it is time to replace the media.

Good topic, good thread..

Bar none, the niftiest non-tumbling way to clean cases is the IOSSO system:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=888624

Also, they market it as "environmentally friendly," so it's got to be a lot better for you than the carb cleaner (note the poison label in your photo). Give it a try.

RSY

quote:

You don't clean your brass BEFORE running it up into your resizer? Aren't you worried about getting build up in your die? I've always tumbled a spent case before anything else to help keep the die clean.

Doc, W/ all this info on the Media Destroying your barrel, if you size after tubmbling, you are really going to kill your dies w/ all of the abrasives .

I personally think you do more damage to the die if you size after tumbling. The small amount of soot/oil/dust/etc. accompanied by the sizing wax is probably less abrasive than tumbled brass w/ a fine dust of abrasive media mixed w/ the sizing wax.

I've always found the clean tumbled brass to be more diffcult to size than dirty brass.

I have also read where manus suggest not using sizing lube or tumbling pistol brass (Straight Walled) because the "dirty brass" will function better through the die as is.

I honestly believe that all this is irrelevant to barrel life. We would most likely be talking 100 rounds more life of one than the other. By that time, the rifle has probably had a significant decrease in accuracy as well.

Another fact w/ hunting rifles is that most of us will not "wear out" very many barrels in our lives. When you own many different rifles and shoot them all, it'll take quite a few years to put enough pills down the tube to ruin the BBL.

But hey, It sure is fun trying to wear em' out.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Wstrnhuntr,

What kind of media do you use?

Hot Core,

Cleaning the inside of the case was not important. Krieger barrel makers agreed, as did most other "authorities" I spoke with. This burnt residue is essentially sterile and is better left alone. Apparently, it is more harmful that good if you stick a brush up in there and try and clean it but do not get all of it. That just loosens pieces that will shoot down the bore.

I also tend to be a bit anal on cleaning my rifles, and I usually push a few wet patches about every 10 shots anyway...I just do not do an aggressive cleaning with a bronze brush, etc. until about every 25-30. That system works for me.

A conversation I had years ago with a Sierra tech was interesting. They told me that it is not necessary to clean the bore at all when they are testing all of their loads. This goes against everything I've been taught. I figured with all the fouling in the bore, it gets tighter, and thus is not really a fair test between loads. I've also noticed that I've never had a load in any of my rifles be "the most accurate" when it was in the Sierra manual.

The exact opposite is true for Nosler bullets. Many times have my rifles preferred the exact published load in a Nosler manual.

Coincidence I guess.

Oh, main ingredient in Kaboom is Urea Monohydrochloride, 5-7%. So a "rinse" with water is warranted.

One point that is overlooked:
No matter what we use to clean our brass with, it is either abrasive or corrosive, if it weren't, it wouldn't clean!

Another point: Even if we don't tumble our brass, and just reload it! The soot (burned powder residue) that's left in the brass after firing the round is also an abrasive, and if we clean our brass to the point where there is no abrasive residue of any kind on the brass, the brass wouldn't last but a couple of reloadings!

We really need to be a little more realistic!

Someone mentioned barrel life being shortened by a couple of hundred rounds and that their barrel lasted approximately 7500 rounds!
Well, most of us wouldn't know the difference in 7000 and 7500 rounds, when looking at it from a practical stand-point!

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck White:
One point that is overlooked:
No matter what we use to clean our brass with, it is either abrasive or corrosive, if it weren't, it wouldn't clean!

Well, I don't think these points were overlooked at all, they are THE points of discussion.

To be, or not to be...abrasive. I still like the idea of hand cleaning as it was very fast and very easy. I have no problem ditching my tumbler.

If I can talk with over half a dozen excellent riflesmiths and barrel makers in one day and they all agree on not using a tumbler, that is good enough for me.

I've found the secret to making my rifle barrels last forever.

DON'T SHOOT THEM!

I carefully work up a load in brand new, squeaky clean cases that have been run through a physician's autoclave to completely sterilize them. The bullets are also sterilized after soaking them in denatured alcohol, then carb cleaner, then finally sterilized pee from specially bred Asian virgins. I then load the ammo in a special reverse pressure room to make sure no dust gets in, obviously wearing a full environmental hazmat suit to guarantee that there is no possible contamination from body oils or respiratory gases.

The ammo is sealed in individual shrink wrapped plastic and only opened when I get to the range. I carry a portable plastic "bubble" borrowed from a hospital supply company in which I seal myself before uncasing the rifle or ammo. The bubble was specially modified to contain a self sealing porthole through which the barrel is inserted before firing.

Once a single group is fired that meets my expectations for that rifle - like 1/2" for my Marlin lever guns, or .050" for any of my other bolt actions (what? don't your guns shoot like that?!), the rifle is placed in an hermetically sealed plastic wrapper, all gas inside the wrapper is removed and replaced with inert nitrogen, then the rifle is hung up on the shelf to admire forever.

There are some guys who go to further lengths than I do but geez, they are REALLY anal about their rifles. I just can't be bothered to do all the stuff that they do.

I agree with wstrnhuntr. I resize then tumble with dry Walnut media then wipe off the exterior then tap the case to release anything loose inside. I trim if necessary then ream the case mouth inside and out and load. I shoot several thousand rounds per year and have for several years, I can perceive no ill effects on my chambers or barrels. Granted barrels will need replacing after several thousand rounds, but after all I am a shooter not a collector of rifles. I guess you could say I am a collector shooting rifles that get shot, instead of resting on the shelf. Good shooting.

Jim,

Could you be more specific on your Asian virgins? I've mostly worked with Chinese and Southeast Asian stock, but haven't been satisfied with the pH of the pee, and resultant coloration issues. I've heard good things about the Indian and Turkish stuff, though. What do you think?

RSY

Jim and RSY:

Thanks for the laugh! Very funny. Nice to lighten up the thread.

Now, about those virgins...

RSY- sorry, I should have been more specific. It's the diet that matters. You mentioned Chinese and Southeast Asian, so I'm assuming your's eat a more Mandarin oriented diet. I've found Szechuan fed virgins's pee to be more satisfactory.

That would also explain your positive results with the Indian variety - they are vegetarians.

Can't comment on the Turkish variety but will have to try that out, thanks for the tip!

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Jim and RSY:

Thanks for the laugh! Very funny. Nice to lighten up the thread.

Now, about those virgins...

Hey, Doc:

Not to disparage your thread, as I've found it one of the more enjoyable and thought-provoking in a long while. I love it when things we take for granted as simple, absolute little procedures really get put under the microscope.

Again, I think the IOSSO solution (no pun intended) I referenced above may be just what you're looking for.

RSY

To tumble or not to to tumble, that is the question.

Wasn't there a Boy George song, "I'll tumble for ya." Maybe from the village people?

I heard back from Pac Nor barrels. They do tumble, but then wash cases in hot soapy water and dry.

I'm glad some of you think the topic has been fertile grounds for discussion. As previously said, I think most of us have taken something for granted. I know some of the barrel makers have and so did the guy at Sinclair that I spoke with.

The consensus has been, most have always done it and didn't know it could potentially be harmful. That said, if I can still get 4000-7000 rounds out of a barrel, who cares!