I have been trying to find the perfect load for my 7 mag for a year and just when I think I have it and my rifle is shooting really well I'll go to the range and my groups will be horrible!! I'm religious about cleaning so that can be ruled out and exact when duplicating loads. Any suggestions as to what could be happening or what problems I should be looking for? I'm using 160 Accubonds, Nosler brass, Retumbo powder, and CCI 250 primers. The only change made has been the primers having used Federal Match 215 primers in the past. I'd be greatful for any help!!!!!!

Do you get "vertical stringing" after the barrel begins to warm up? If you are shooting a Remington 700 in its factory stock, the problem might have something to do with the barrel and the "pad" at the very end of the barrel channel in the stock. I am not well-versed enough in Model 700 rifles to tell you much more, but I have seen your problem or ones similar several times in the past in these pages. Let's wait and see what others tell us...

I don't understand. You say your rifle is shooting well and then you go to the range and it shoots terrible. Is it just one trip or what? Does the same load shoot well on the next trip? Before you can correct a problem, it has to be repeatable. When the rifle shoots terrible, do you start changing things?
You need to shoot the same load even if it's terrible until you are getting a pattern and then you can tell us what the rifle is doing and we can go from there.

First thing I'd do is shoot some factory ammo. If there is a noticeable improvement your reloads need more work. If no improvement is noticed I'd be looking for something mechanical, like at the stock for example.
Secondly, there may be no problem at all. Maybe your rifle is telling you it doesn't like boat tail bullets.
More info please....

Thanks for the help so far. As far as the contact at the end of the stock, Remington assures me it is necessary because of the bedding (or lack thereof). Anyone think differently? I'll load more rounds of the same recipe and shoot them during multiple range sessions to see if this problem is repeatable. It's frustrating to think you have the "magic load" (1/2 MOA or less at 100yds) only to go back to the range another day and have groups open up to 1 1/2" or more AND NOT UNDERSTAND WHY! Does anyone feel the CCI 250 primers could be playing a role? Good groups have been shot with the CCI 250's though. I love a challenge but this is getting really old.

Homebrewer, I went and looked through my book of targets and the answer to your question is yes (usually). If I call the shot "bad" it is usually to the left. However, if I feel the shots are all good but the group is not as expected the string is usually vertical (more or less) and the point of impact has changed. Is this related to the pressure point at the end of the Remington stock? This is a hunting rifle so I'm not going to spend $400 on an aftermarket. Any other suggestions?

I'm not an expert in Remingtons or any rifles for that matter. I have seen it in this forum that the fix is usually a small sanding away of some of the wood at the pressure point. Exactly what is done there is well above my paygrade...

quote:

I'm religious about cleaning so that can be ruled out

Maybe not. Some guns shoot differently when clean and take a different number of rounds to foul. My .30-06 is a good example. It takes three to foul it, then it shoots 1/2" groups for about 50 rounds, then they begin to open up, and I clean and foul it again. In your case, shooting clean and shooting dirty could be dramatically different. And you could be shooting before the gun becomes sufficiently fouled. You did say you were exact when duplicating loads, but unless that means a precise number of shots or lack thereof when testing, it may not be sufficiently exact.

quote:

just when I think I have it and my rifle is shooting really well I'll go to the range and my groups will be horrible!!

Just what does this mean? Have you ever shot more than one group of a given load? Why do you say it's shooting good?

The other posters have given some good advice on the mechanical aspects of things, but we really need more information. And most importantly one group tells you nothing about nothing. One 1/2" group is meaningless. Give us some history and we can probably be more helpful.

LWD

Take note of what LWD writes.

I have a 7 Mag that would not shoot anything consistently and it drove me crazy for three years. I had the trigger re-worked, pillar and glass bedded it, free floated the barrel, got it recrowned and nothing helped. It would shoot a dozen different bullets into 2" - 4" groups with no consistency.

One time I tried about 15 different loads and the last few groups started shooting into 1" - 1 1/2" groups and I thought that I finally had the right combination. I took the gun home and cleaned it like I always do, loaded up some more of the loads that were shooting well and went back to the range. They shot like crap, with the best loads going 3+ inches.

I took it home again and forgot to to clean it while I played with more loads.

On the next trip to the range it was shooting better than ever and the light bulb went off.

I experimented with it and found out that my barrel needs to have 15 - 20 rounds through it before it shoots consistently. It's a stainless steel barrel so now I only clean it every 200-300 rounds and make sure I put 20 - 30 rounds through it before I take it hunting.

Hey Craig, Unless you are using the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method, and using Randomly Selected Loads to try, your chances of hitting a Harmonic Node in the middle is greatly reduced.

That sounds bad, but even worse, some rifles just do not like a "specific" Bullet regardless of how much we want it to. It could be as simple as swapping to a different Bullet or just a different Weight of the same Bullet.

Seating Depth inconsistency can also contribute to what you "might" be seeing. If you are measuring the Overall Cartridge Length and trying to make them all the same, that will often cause the Ogives to all be at different distances from the Lands. Best to determine the OCL and then convert OCL to ODL.

But, I generally Benchmark a rifle with a Match Grade Bullet to begin with. Something like a Sierra MatchKing just to see what accuracy the rifle is capable of. I do not remember a rifle ever disliking a MatchKing, but occasionally I'll use a different manufactures Match Grade Bullets because that is what I could get.

Does the rifle shoot well with anything?

Don't forget, Craig, your state of mind and the wind conditions and such can certainly influence your range results also.
Stay mellow, Dude.

Wasbeeman raises a good point with respect to your state of mind. Years ago I used to shoot .22 competition. I lived a 20 minute drive from the indoor range we used. I found that if, on my drive to the range, I had any sort of "close call" or even if someone cut me off, I might as well just go home, because that night would not produce my best targets. Just a thought.

I'm betting on what LWD and Fjold are touching on. I have had several rifles that didn't shoot well until they were fouled with as many as 20 rounds. I now clean these less agressively, and finish the cleaning that I do complete with a pass of a couple of patches with Prolix on them, this has reduced the need to fould these rifles as much to get good accuracy.

I had a 7 mag that did much as what I inerprate your rifle to be doing, that you shoot it with a certain load on a trip to the range and it is shooting MOA or better, and then you go home, reload some ammo to the same specs, CLEAN your rifle, and go back to the range and it isn't shooting as well as before...if I got that right, I really lean to you needing a dirty bore--so to speak--to get optimum performance out of that rifle/load.....

Now, as a final comment, a primer can damn well make a big difference, I read from Steve or Steves reloading pages that he had a rifle with over 600 rounds of VERY careful load development through it, and it would not shoot as well as he desired, being out of the primer he intended to use, he substituted a different brand, and oila', it became a tackdriver, so....
I would quit cleaning it so much, or at least so agressively, maybe just push a patch through to nock the loose stuff out, and then see what she does....lastly, try to find some of the original primers you had used with success.

Have you tried scrubbing the bore with JB compound? It might have rough tool marks in the rifling that need more fouling to be able to shoot consistently. You could even try fire-lapping with grit impregnated lead bullets to smoothen out the bore. As it is a relatively new rifle, that treatment should not hurt your bore.

Had problem getting my new 7mm08 Remington SPS to shoot. Grouped okay but expected better. 140gr Remington SPCL were best, 120gr Nosler Accutips not good, 140gr Highland SPBT not much different.

Sanded out the pressure block at the stock tip and free floated the barrel. Some but not much improvement. Got hold of my favourites I used to use in my 7x61 S&H, Sierra SPBT and boy did I see some groups then. All virtually down the same hole at 50m.

I'm not religious on cleaning but i have no time for a hunting rifle that won't put the first shot from a cold clean barrel where I'm aiming.
If can go to the range and shoot a tight three shot group straight off from a rifle that has been cleaned and stored in the gun cupboard from last time out, that is my rifle. Anything else is a waste of space.

wasbeeman, I would free float and then try other bullets before anything else.

Thanks to everyone who has offered up information!! What a help. My course of action is as follows. I did not not clean the rifle as aggressively as normal this time, I've bought some 168 Matchkings to see what I can do with those (not to mention they are half the price of Accubonds!), and I'm going to send a few more rounds down range this time before I start "keeping score." No luck going back to the original primers given they were Federal Match 215 and impossible to find these days so that can't be fixed. I'll shoot some Matchking loads for development and my normal recipe to see if fouling the barrel helps. Hoping to shoot on Saturday so I'll let everyone know how it goes. Thanks again.

stop cleaning it.

quote:

stop cleaning it.

People clean WAY too much. There's really no point to cleaning every time you shoot a gun and as we have been discussing reasons not to. You may have just reduced the number of shots you have to fire to get it back to where it was but you don't know by how many.

LWD

Hey Craig, Are you Randomly picking Loads from a Manual? If so, you might eventually find one, but I'd recommend you try the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method.

I'd also BenchMark the rifle with Sierra MatchKings to see what level of Accuracy it is capable of before going to Hunting Bullets.

Then once the Harmonic is located for the Hunting Bullets, I'd recommend changing the Seating Depth using OCL-to-ODL to Fine Tune the Final Load.

Try H1000 and Fed 215s or Rem 9 1/2Ms with your Loads.

Best of luck to you.

Hot Core,
I started loading with Fed 215s and now can't find them to save my life. Stuck with CCI 250s which is all I can find. If you have an inside secret to finding some let me know Picked up some Matchkings the other day.

Hey Craig, The CCI-250s may work as well or maybe even better. I've not used them in a very long time. I do use a lot of CCI Small Primers though.

Only mentioned the others because they worked well for me.

Best of luck to you.

Any progress?

Many thanks to everyone who has offered their opinions/suggestions. I bought some 168 gr Sierra Matchking bullets, applied the Creighton-Audette method, began taking measurements in regards to the bullet ogive, and seated .04" off the lands. Holy crap gentleman we have a shooter! Consistent ragged holes with a three shot group at 100 yds. The most exciting part of the above sentence is the word consistent. Time to practice and develop my hunting load using the above. It's nice to know the rifle isn't a lemon

"help!!!" should be reserved for emergencies

rel22, same primers, same bullets. have fun

Glad you are getting good accuracy now. BUT...the bullet is not the best choice for game. You need to now find the right bullet for the game & then the best load - accurate with good velocity. Also you would need to make sure that the ammo fits the magazine easily 100% of the time. I would suggest that you try & find a safe accurate load that is 0.020 inch off the lands & fits the magazine and feeds easily 100%.

No point having a target load that shoot half inch at 200 meters and find that it won't fit your magazine or which needs to be crushed to chamber with a hard bolt closing, or which does not drop game cleanly because the bullet is not suitable.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by craigcampbell:
...gentleman we have a shooter! Consistent ragged holes with a three shot group at 100 yds. The most exciting part of the above sentence is the word consistent. Time to practice and develop my hunting load using the above. It's nice to know the rifle isn't a lemon

Good for you!!!

If for some reason those Accubonds won't shoot for you, there are plenty of other Bullets that will do just as well. It is always aggrivating when we can't use the Bullet we originally want to use, but that is just the way it goes.

Glad to hear the Retumbo is doing well for you. I've burned maybe 3-8# jugs of H1000 in various 7mmRemMags over the years and had good luck with it. But, I've not tried Retumbo yet. I need to put that on my "Need to Test" list.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

Sorry I'm so late to reply. been away. I have a 700ADL 7 MM mag. Same problem- free floated entire brrl. glassed the recoil lug and about 1 1/2 in front of the lug to support the brrl. MY problems went away. Just my two pennies

Nakihunter, thanks for the additional advice. I do realize that the MatchKing is not a hunting round. It was used simply to help prove that the gun was capable of consistent accuracy. That was the original problem. Why do you feel that my hunting load, whatever that may be, need be 0.020" off the lands? Or is that just a good starting point? Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by craigcampbell:
Homebrewer, I went and looked through my book of targets and the answer to your question is yes (usually). If I call the shot "bad" it is usually to the left. However, if I feel the shots are all good but the group is not as expected the string is usually vertical (more or less) and the point of impact has changed. Is this related to the pressure point at the end of the Remington stock? This is a hunting rifle so I'm not going to spend $400 on an aftermarket. Any other suggestions?

If it's a hunting rifle why are your worried about a 1-1/2 inch group at 100 yards? Even at 300 yards that's still tight enough to kill a deer. I know we are always striving to improve our loads, but seriously it's not enough of an issue to lose sleep over.

quote:

I'm religious about cleaning so that can be ruled out

CRAIG.. I dont know if you are shooting fouler shots through your rifle, before you start grouping your load..I have had some rifels that were very clean, like yours, and i had to shoot 4,5 and sometimes 6 shoots through it before it would start grouping.. a clean barrel would give me about 1.50" then it would go back to shooting.750 to 1.00" group