Designer Lutz Moeller, a physicist and an avid hunter, set out to design a hunting bullet in any caliber from .264“/6.5 mm and up to .375"/9.5 mm which would satisfy the basic demands of little meat destruction on small animals like roe deer at all hunting ranges and of quickly and reliably putting down wild boar. For this he found conventional jacketed lead bullets to be unsatisfactory. Lead disintegrates at terminal velocity of 1800 f/s (550 m/s) and above with jackets either completely rupturing or deforming in an uncontrolled fashion, resulting in inadequate penetration and erratic behavior in the animal. He determined that the bullet design would have to adhere to the following requirements:

- Be fast and ballistically efficient so as to allow point blank shooting at practical hunting ranges.
- Not cause dangerous pressure peaks in the rifle.
- Shed its front part at minimally 2130 – 2300 f/s (650 – 700 m/s) in a controlled fashion and into large splinters for them to penetrate and effect significant damage to the organs surrounding the bullet path.
- Penetrate at least 20“ (50 cm) through the animal in a straight line, continuous of the flight trajectory.

Building on tried and tested 19th century drive band technology (from artillery) and the work of ballistician Johan Loubser, now with Accurate Powders in Montana, Moeller came up with the final configuration of his KJG bullet, a precision turned drive band copper projectile of hollow point configuration with an aerodynamic tip of synthetic material.

These requirements are met by the use of solid copper which is lighter than lead thus making for a relatively long/slim bullet of higher BC and also by the drive bands which result in minimal friction against the barrel, being made just thick enough not to shear off when the bullet engages the rifling. Additionally the drive bands fill the grooves of the barrel whereas the lands do not touch the bullet shank proper. Copper being also harder than lead assures that the bullet does not deform on hitting the animal resulting in a straight path by a nearly true cylinder shape object (a cigarette butt comes to mind). Finally the careful design of the front part assures its controlled break up into large fragments.

But there are additional benefits to this bullet design. Lead is, of course, poisonous and as it breaks up in the animal particles, both large and very small, are dispersed in the animal, entering muscle tissue and internal organs to the detriment of humans and of scavengers. Another benefit is increased accuracy resulting from the uniformity of machined bullets. Accuracy is also increased by setting the front drive band against the rifling which assures a straight line to the bore. Thus the bullet actually positions the cartridge in the chamber instead of the conventional method by which the cartridge positions the bullet inrelation to the bore. One advantage is minimal copper fouling in the bore, contrary to other copper bullets. Finally I would like to mention that due to the controlled break-up of the front part of the bullet twigs and branches in front of and close to the target animal will not deflect the bullet from its path.
Below I am pasting links to Moeller´s huge and richly illustrated web site. Even though these web pages are in German anyone with some knowledge of ballistics and reloading will readily understand their contents. These links give performance data (including penetration)and loading data regarding the KJG bullets in calibers ranging from .264“/6.5 mm to .375“/9.5 mm:

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/6,5-mm/6,5-mm.htm
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/6,86-mm/6,86-mm.htm
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/7-mm/7-mm.htm
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/7,62-mm/7,62-mm.htm
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/8-mm-S/8-mm-S.htm
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/8,5-mm/8,5-mm.htm
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/9,3-mm/9,3-mm.htm
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/9,5-mm/9,5-mm.htm


KJG performance into water at various velocities, in German but the graphic material (with data)says all there is to say:

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/7-...ssertankversuche.htm

KJG performance into wet and frozen wood (hardwood, softwood) showing penetration and deflection, in German but the illustrations are revealing:

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/Ballistik/Hartholz.htm
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/Ballistik/Weichholz.htm

I am of course aware that most of the written material is hard to make sense of for those who do not read German but the specs and ballistic data for the individual bullets are simple to grasp for anyone with some knowledge of reloading and riflery. The illustrations are also often revelatory for those who are into these things.

Here are a couple of pages of that web site in English, however:

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/English/...andbullets.htm

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/English/index.html

quote:

Building on tried and tested 19th century drive band technology (from artillery) and the work of ballistician Johan Loubser, now with Accurate Powders in Montana, Moeller came up with the final configuration of his KJG bullet, a precision turned drive band copper projectile of hollow point configuration with an aerodynamic tip of synthetic material.

Sounds like a good description of the Barnes tipped TSX....

there is no comparison with the barnes... if you read carefully my op you will see why... the barnes is made by rolling grooves into the copper shank with all the inherent inaccuracies of that method...it does NOT have drive bands..one quick look at the barnes and the kjg is enough to show the striking difference between the two...the barnes naturally does cause worrying pressure peaks because of high engraving force whereas the kjg does not...as i said in my post the drive bands are engineered as a balance between minimal resistance and shearing off...you reload kjg with relatively fast powders and get maximum velocity with normal pressures plus little copper fouling...does that sound like barnes?

additionally the kjg is purposely engineered to completely shed its front part in a few large splinters as i tried to explain, the barnes is not...sometimes one or more of the barnes petals break off in the animal causing a wildly erratic path.

He basically stole the design in S. Africa, had it protected in Germany after his return and claims it is his invention.

Yes, the South African, who maintains Moeller pinched his drive band design, posts here.

Other than that, Moeller's claim to fame is lighter than average (and therefore faster than average), mono-metal bullets. Some people swear by them, some don't. They have always been too rich (European pricing!) for my taste, and Barnes (TS)X have served me well if I wanted to shoot mono-metal bullets. These days, there are a plethora of such bullets to choose from.

Btw, I often see LESS pressure from Barnes TSX bullets - compared to bullets with a lead core. So the engraving force can't be all that bad on the TSX,

- mike

Nice-looking bullet. Could this ever be made in a lead-core bullet? I like the drive bands.

i do not think moeller is in this to become famous, neither fast nor lightly...

the accusation that he pinched the design from mr. schultz, is preposterous...it is resoundingly refuted here with solid argument and photographic evidence:

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/English/...andbullets.htm

i shoot the kjg in 3 calibers...they are very accurate and particularly easy to reload with...

here is the link again:

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/En...Drivebandbullets.htm

OK Lutz, thanks for enlightening us on the very best invention since sliced bread, sorry, Nitro powder.

you are mistaken, duk;

1. i am not lutz moeller and i have no financial interest in his

2. the heading of this thread is the best "thing" since nitro powder not "invention". you also choose to disregard the question mark. moeller does not claim his kjg is an invention. quite the opposite as is evident from the thread above. i say that combining all those advanced features in a single bullet makes it a remarkable innovation.

I don't use Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs). Lead Core Bullets are perfect for me and the Game I Hunt. Always have been - always will be!

Do these bullets go faster than a regular cylindrical bullet of identical weight per identical powder charge?

quote:

Finally I would like to mention that due to the controlled break-up of the front part of the bullet twigs and branches in front of and close to the target animal will not deflect the bullet from its path.

quote:

additionally the kjg is purposely engineered to completely shed its front part in a few large splinters as i tried to explain, the barnes is not...sometimes one or more of the barnes petals break off in the animal causing a wildly erratic path.

quote:

Shed its front part at minimally 2130 – 2300 f/s (650 – 700 m/s) in a controlled fashion and into large splinters for them to penetrate and effect significant damage to the organs surrounding the bullet path.

Truly fantastic claims of peformance with these KJG bullets. I find it remarkable that Made in Germany enginering can ensure terminal perfomance better than Barnse's bullets which supposedly "sometimes one or more ofthe Barnes pedals break off causing a wildly eratic path"; while KJG bullets which are made to do this "in a controlled fashion and into large splinters for them to penetrate and effect significant damage to the organs surrounding the bullet path." can - Cool!

The claim of no bullet deflection "twigs and branches in front of and close to the target animal will not deflect the bullet from its path" is obviously a superior feature also .....

GS Custom has been making lighter copper drive band high BC bullets since 1993.

Now I suppose someone could sit isolated from the world for the last 20 years and come up with the same concept on their own, but frankly if Mueller is such the avid hunting enthusiast he claims to be, somewhere along the way he was sure to have run in to the GS design.

As for the secrecy based on the companies in the endeavor going back to 1936 which have always been devoted to military production, one has to wonder whether those were some of the same companies supplying the Third Reich.

quote:

unfortunately some of the projectiles and other devices have to remain military exclusive. To give you a brief history, one of my companies was formed in 1935. We have literally been a military supplier since the inception.

Probably not a strong selling point for those of us who had fathers, grandfathers and in some cases great grandfathers in harms way of their ordnance.

Plus, when you relate something to a super secret military application not available to the general public, that bit of intrigue carries a fair premium on the sales price.

As for the polymer tip, that has also been around for a while. To claim the design is some sort of revelation is nonsense.

I have no affiliation with GS, Barnes or Hornady. Just have a keen sense of BS when I see it.

To accurately describe the design as a combination of already successful designs from vaious manufacturers would not be a strong selling point, though, and may open them up to having to pay royalties to those other successful designers.

Of course, that is purely my opinion.

Its a german/continental europe thing that fragmenting the front part or petals is a good thing. Most hunters want high final weight instead.

(Look at rws H jacket and DK.)

Brenneke TAG non lead, losing petals in the front part, driving bands,alu tip.

Not what i like in bullets.

a good point, homebrewer...yes, a drive band bullet like the kjg (and the model 1870 naval artillery shell of 1870, for that matter- see much-posted second link below) can be driven faster than a conventional bullet of the same weight as it offers MUCH less resistance when propelled through the barrel...however, one of the design premises of his bullet is to favor speed over weight to provide flatter trajectory, namely point blank on big game at all practical hunting ranges...

with this bullet the magnum cartridges of 6.5 and 7 mm really come into their own...if you look at the tables of the following link you will see a recommended load by moeller („empfohlen“) for the 7 mm wsm... a 104 grain kjg is propelled by 64.3 grains of norma 203-b (similar to imr 4320) at 3660 f/s mv...at 328 yds (300 m) the velocity is 2880 f/s with bullet drop is mere 3.1“...at this range penetration is 23.6“ in soft tissue and 5.1“ into bone :

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/7-mm/7-mm-WSM.htm

jim manion, i really think you should bother to read the posts and look at the links before you proceed to comment;
„GS Custom has been making lighter copper drive band high BC bullets since 1993.“
so what? artillery people have been using drive bands for much longer than that (eg. imperial russian model 1844 ring artillery shell with soft iron drive bands; see ian hogg´s history of artillery, 1974)...one look at the model 1870 imperial german naval shell (apparently cuprous drive bands) on the link below is revealing... i very much doubt gs of gs custom was around then and it is probably safe to assume he was not around in 1844:

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/En...Drivebandbullets.htm

„As for the polymer tip, that has also been around for a while. To claim the design is some sort of revelation is nonsense.“
of course the p.t. has been around for a while...so what? nowhere does moeller even hint that he invented it...and where is it claimed that the kjg is „some sort of revelation“?

moeller does not claim to be an „avid hunting enthusiast“...i say he is an avid hunter because i know him to be one..

the rest of your comments i let pass as they are of no relevance to the subject of this thread but it is good of you to assure us that they are purely your opinion.

nordic2, you say „most hunters want final weight“...perhaps you are right but i have not seen any surveys on this...but please tell us why you "want" that in your bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:
The claim of no bullet deflection "twigs and branches in front of and close to the target animal will not deflect the bullet from its path" is obviously a superior feature also .....

Just wait for next generation KJG with built-in artificial intelligence...

Seriously, when I read petronius' first post here, the red BS warning light on my computer immediately started to flash.

duk, is this really all you can contribute to a discussion ?

quote:

Originally posted by petronius:
the rest of your comments i let pass as they are of no relevance to the subject of this thread but it is good of you to assure us that they are purely your opinion. ...

Since your entire objective is shilling Bullets - I agree.

I have no bones in this fight, nor do I have any way of establishing who is telling the truth, but here is the post alleging Mr Moeller "borrowed" a few design features from the South African GS bullets:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=359102151#359102151

With regards to fragmenting bullets, it is true quite a few Central European bullet designs rely on fragmentation. The RWS/Brenneke bullets have already been mentioned above. Also in mono-metal bullets (of which there are quite a few produced in Europe - at significantly higher prices than what you would see in the US, I might add) quite a few of those seem to fragment. Whether this is by chance or by design, I could not tell. Like Nordic2, this would probably not be my first choice in a bullet attribute, but this is a field with many opinions.

- mike

At the risk of sounding harsh, since all 7 of petronius's posts on accuratereloading since he registered yesterday are in this thread, I can say only one thing:



LWD

mho, i would be interested to know what moeller "borrowed" from gs...i am however in no doubt as to what gs "borrowed" from 19th century artillery innovations!:
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/En...Drivebandbullets.htm
as i have already said the fragments of kjg bullets are few and large and their purpose is to plow through tissue and organs around the path of the cylinder...sometimes these fragments completely penetrate through the side of small deer like the roe...i would call this feature a decided advantage in a hunting bullet...
let us not forget that due to the nature of lead conventional jacketed bullets are subject to much more and uncontrolled fragmentation above 550 m/s or so which is one of the reasons we have seen the increased use of copper bullets for hunting; see x-ray and paper here:
http://www.peregrinefund.org/p...y/Hunt-bullet-ms.pdf
here is an example of the fragmentation of 8 mm kjg and 7 mm sirocco swift after passing through the neck of a boar into sand; the 9.7 gram sirocco lost 3.3 g of lead whereas the 8.2 gram kjg lost 2.3 g of copper
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/Ge...cirocco_Blechschrott

I want a expantion to about 200% of the diameter and a weight retention of about 80-90% in a heavy for cal. bullet. (155gr for 6,5)

"with this bullet the magnum cartridges of 6.5 and 7 mm really come into their own...if you look at the tables of the following link you will see a recommended load by moeller („empfohlen“) for the 7 mm wsm... a 104 grain kjg is propelled by 64.3 grains of norma 203-b (similar to imr 4320) at 3660 f/s mv...at 328 yds (300 m) the velocity is 2880 f/s with bullet drop is mere 3.1“...at this range penetration is 23.6“ in soft tissue and 5.1“ into bone"
A 104g bullet is allowed just for roedeer. Why use a 7wsm for roe?
Why dont any other than L.Muller puplish reload data for the bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by petronius:

jim manion, i really think you should bother to read the posts and look at the links before you proceed to comment;

The problem you seem to be having with my post is that I did read the other posts and links.

You seem to think you are discretiting my views since GS "borrowed" the drive band concept from earlier technology. So, since GS did it on expired patents and applications, it is OK for a new manfacturer to "borrow" iot from GS and call it their own?

You might want to take your own advice and read all the threads here posted in various places before. GS never claimed that drive bands were a new innovation, unlike some.

It is pretty apparent here that you are here on this forum for the sole purpose of shilling bullets. All too transparent.

Are you affiliated with Moeller in any way? Sounds like you might be part of the marketing or distribution chain. We can always ask our host here to trace your IP address, if you are too shy to tell us.

And as to yout additional comment:

quote:

Originally posted by petronius:
moeller does not claim to be an „avid hunting enthusiast“...i say he is an avid hunter because i know him to be one..

I guess this is where we got that impression:

quote:

Posted 6 Aug, 8:41 AM
Designer Lutz Moeller, a physicist and an avid hunter...

So, to be clear, he is not an avid hunting enthusiast, but he is an avid hunter? That may be a difference, but it is a difference without a distinction. If your response was intended to somehow invalidate the point, you did a piss poor job. Frankly, you only reinforce the point I was making.

Please disclose what your affiliation is with this product. We're all ears....

quote:

Finally I would like to mention that due to the controlled break-up of the front part of the bullet twigs and branches in front of and close to the target animal will not deflect the bullet from its path.

The Laws of physics say otherwise. It is momentum (p=mv), not kenetic energy (KE=mv^2/2), that helps maintain a bullets path in flight. Since your entire theory depends on light for caliber bullets, you are giving up the mass necessary for superior flight path retention after deflection.

Since you are obviously part of the companies marketing department (you numerious links to support all of your claims are a dead give away) let me tell you what I DON'T want in a bullet. I DON'T WANT A MACHINED ALL COPPER EUROPEAN BULLET! It's difficult to think of a more expensive way to make a bullet today...
In addition, I don't buy from arrogant Europeans that treats us like "dumb colonials" and won't answer simple question like, "What is your position with the company". If you want to sell to us, how about some data we can understand, i.e powder and bullet weights in grains, velocities in feet per second, drop tables in either inches, or minutes of angle, and maybe some powders that we would actually use on this side of the pond.

Perhaps if the companies owner will come on to this tread, apoligize for your behavior, and provide me with some free samples, I might be willing to test them, and write an unbiased review for the members of the AR forum. Until then, I think I will pass on your over priced product.

nordic2, why would you want 200% increase in frontal area? what is it good for?
104 grs for roe only...the point i was making was a technical one, not legal...but apart from that, what is wrong with using wsm on roe since it does not do any more meat damage than a lesser cartridge, given a decent shot?

jim manion, when patents expire the intellectual property they have protected becomes public domain...are you perhaps trying to convince me that the proper thing for a „new manufacturer“ in a particular branch of industry is to start with outdated technology and then work his way (presumably slowly)up to a more modern one ?
„GS never claimed that drive bands were a new innovation, unlike some.“ then, what was the complaint about ?

as for myself i have no stake in moeller´s business, no role in distributing his products or advertising them...the only stake i might be said to have is to spread the gospel in order to get more people to buy his excellent bullets to keep him in business so he can continue to make bullets for me to shoot ! and, yes, there is a bit of preacher in me as well.. these are expensive bullets and all i have had from moeller are his invoices...yes, by all means trace my computer...but to save you any unnecessary effort in that direction i am happy to tell you that i am a native of iceland, living and working there...but feel free to trace all you like !

„avid hunter“ vs. „avid hunting enthusiast“...you seem to miss the point...it was that moeller does not claim to be one but that i know him to be one...

antelope sniper, on hitting branches, twigs etc. NEAR the target the front part breaks off and the remaining cylinder carries on its path more or less in a straight line as it does inside the animal...it has to do with „shoulder stabilizing“ of the remaining part...you might like to look at these english pages where the phenomenon is clearly explained as well as practical results on game:
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/En...ullet_selection.html
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/English/9,3-mm-Bullet.htm
as for tests of the kjg in wood, both hard and soft here is a page you might like too look at...it is in german but the photos speake volumes:
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/Ba...inwinkelstreuung.htm
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/Ballistik/Weichholz.htm

quote:

nordic2, why would you want 200% increase in frontal area? what is it good for?

Are you Serious??? You don't understand why a person would want a bigger hole and greater tissue disruption in game?

I see Lutz-Moeller is introducing a new rifle.
Here's a video of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...yuXk&feature=related

ah, but that is at the expense of penetration.. kjg will do both, cylinder penetrating in straight line while the fragments mash the tissue around the bullet path.

antelope sniper, did you get the shoulder stabilisation bit?

quote:

cylinder penetrating in straight line while the fragments mash the tissue around the bullet path.

Sounds like a good description of one of my favorite bullets, the Nosler Accubond. It's designed for about 65-70% weight retention, fragementation upon entry for a large initial destruction of tissue, and a bonded base that will continue penetrating. Of course since it's a swaged lead bullet made here in U.S.A I can buy the seconds from the Nosler Proshop for 1/10th what you are paying on a per bullet basis. The manual is in English units, and uses powder we can get on this side of the pond for a reasonable price.

Although I am not a "true believer" of the near 100% weight retention philosophy, I understand those who are. What Nordic2 proposes is VERY effective on broadside shots. Since you are going to shoot through anyway, why not leave a big hole all the way through. In reality the idea of a bullet provides rapid expansion, sheds it front, and has a cylindrical core the continues on through at odd angles is not really a new idea. John Nosler designed the Partition in 1947.

A copper bullet losing petals on roe are more dangerous for the dog. Copper bullets are more dangerous for ricochets, realy dangerous on frosen ground and many hunters or houses.
For roe most people use a rifle beetween 222r-and 6,6*55 anything over that are not adding anything more than recoil. A bullet lighter than about 140gr are not going to give adeqvat performance in bear and moose that ever speed you apply.

quote:

Originally posted by petronius:
„GS never claimed that drive bands were a new innovation, unlike some.“ then, what was the complaint about ?

This is apparently what they coplain about:

Please note that there is no connection between GS Custom Bullets and Mr. Lutz Moeller of KJG. No partnership, no agreement or anything else. My father invited Mr. Moeller to hunt with us during the winter of 2003 as he expressed an interest in distributing our product in Europe and he visited with us for a week. Upon his return to Germany, he lodged a patent application for our exact drive band design and started producing bullets that are close copies of our HV bullets. Fortunately there are some design elements that escaped his attention and are not included in the bullets he produces.

quote:

Originally posted by petronius:
there is no comparison with the barnes... if you read carefully my op you will see why... the barnes is made by rolling grooves into the copper shank with all the inherent inaccuracies of that method...

I saw one of Barnes' own produced videos where the TSX grooves were being cut by lathe equipment. When did they switch from cutting to rolling?

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by petronius:
there is no comparison with the barnes... if you read carefully my op you will see why... the barnes is made by rolling grooves into the copper shank with all the inherent inaccuracies of that method...

I saw one of Barnes' own produced videos where the TSX grooves were being cut by lathe equipment. When did they switch from cutting to rolling?

I'm no machinist, but it seems to me that the drive bands are of a larger diameter than the bullet's main body. If the grooves in the TSX are machined or pressed in, the minor diameter of the groove is going to be less than the diameter of the bullet. The banded bullet slides through the riflings with only the bands touching the lands, which reduces friction. Very little metal is moved to imprint riflings into such a bullet. The grooved bullet has a much greater area against the lands and as such, a much greater area for creating friction.

Let's lay this thing to rest.

quote:

the accusation that he pinched the design from mr. schultz, is preposterous...it is resoundingly refuted here with solid argument and photographic evidence:

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/English/...andbullets.htm

On the linked page, I am correctly quoted as having said: "Regrettably, the co-ordinator of the project, Lutz Moeller, saw fit to "appropriate" our bullet design, registered a German patent (now voided) and started making copies which he now supplies, claiming that he is the originator."

Mr. Moeller counters with:

"Gerard,

You mislead the Audience.

Drive band Bullets or Shells are quite old. They were and are widely used in Artillery shells all over the World."

This is correct, of course. The smokescreen is that artillery shells are not loaded into brass cases. The GSC patent described the first small arms bullet, with drive bands configured in such a way, that the bullet could successfully be loaded into a brass case at a variety of cartridge overall lengths. That was a first. The issue is not about artillery shells with one or two drive bands but the fact that Moeller copied the GSC prior art and claimed novelty for the German application.

Moeller continues: "In 2000 I wanted a better Hunting bullet, than available on the Market. The Industry was not interested at all. Gerard Schultz / GS Custom / South Africa already made Copper bullets. So I approached Gerard for Bullets."

Note that our drive band bullet patent was already three years old and that Moeller was not making bullets yet.

Moeller continues: "In that Time I looked for Help on Bullet design..... It was Johan Loubser who first outlined to me and Gerard Schultz the Dependencies between Engraving forces and Combustion space dynamics. I immediately understood the great Potential to increase Bullet speeds within Pressure Limits from Findings with the added Benefit to reduce Barrel heating fro Series Fire as sport shooters. When You look at GS Custom Bullets though, You may notices, they do not benefit from Loubser's Wisdom. Apparently Gerard in Practice did not follow his good and free Advice."

According to Moeller, this took place in 2000. It was in fact 21 June 2000 when Moeller made first contact with me with an email that said:

"Hi there,

As you are in Afrika, may I ask you to comment the BGB in

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller...ullet_selection.html

Your reply would be wellcome.

Sincerely
Lutz Möller"

We had some correspondence, during which Moeller ordered drive band bullets from us and for which he acknowledged receipt on 6 June 2001.

It was in 2001 (27 November) that Moeller sent me the following mail:

"Dear Gerard,

woud you please help to establish a Contact to the below mentionen "Dr. Loubscher / Somchem", as i would like to add something like his Experince to my Website. I am not too familiar with the best Tuning algorithm. So an Expert advise would help."

I put him in contact with Johann Loubser and, no doubt, they discussed the GSC drive band bullets that we showed Johann and tested at Somchem 18 months previously. (Note that the date format in SA is DD/MM/YY and that Moeller is still not making bullets)



In the SA hunting season of 2003, discussion for Moeller to be our European distributor had progressed to the point where, when he said he is coming to Afrika to visit with friends, I invited him to hunt with us for a week. Amongst others, he shot a Rowland Ward length blesbok on that hunt. I still have it on the wall in my office.

In the week that Moeller was with us, he asked many questions about drive band shank design. Fortunately we did not discuss much about terminal ballistics, nose and hollow point designs so he did not copy any of what GSC has done in that area.

Upon his return to Germany, Moeller lodged a German patent for a drive band bullet design and started making drive band bullets.

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/Ge...bandvollgeschoss.htm

Note the application date:


There is no question about who borrowed ideas from whom here.

In 2006 I enquired with the German Patent Office about the validity of this, citing Moellers purchase of our product in 2001 and his visit to us in 2003 and was informed that the patent is not valid any more. Yet he still uses it on his website.

http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/Ge...bandvollgeschoss.htm

Unless my reading ability in German fails me badly, it now seems that Moeller has applied for patents for a hollow point bullet and a tip for a hollow point bullet.




Is this completely absurd or what?

antelope sniper, i have never used nosler accubond but I accept they are good lead/copper bullets as such, but they are simply that, lead bullets, as can be seen from the nosler web page…lead in bullets hails from the black powder era…it is prone to disintegration and uncontrolled deformation (i expect the nosler photos are only showing optimum examples) and then there is the added prospect of lead poisoning:
http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Accubond.aspx
nordic2, as to safety you make a valid point…i have not heard of any studies into this…perhaps you have? but i know for a fact that copper bullets have been banned (pending research) from the bisley ranges in england as they tend to penetrate the backstop behind the targets…
i agree with you, too much gun makes no sense… and with the kjg technology a hunter need only have one rifle with one weight bullet in any caliber from .264 to say .375 for general big game hunting…in my view less is better within this range…if you scroll down this web pace you will see photos of how a raking shot with 7 mm kjg (7x64 equivalent to .280 rem) will penetrate a gnu and do in its lung cavity as it passes through:
http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/English/8-mm-Bullet.htm
homebrewer, you hit the nail on the head…this is one feature which makes the kjg so different from the barnes and other bullets of that type…

quote:

Originally posted by petronius:

homebrewer, you hit the nail on the head. This is one feature which makes the KJG so different from the Barnes and other bullets of that type…

The idea has been around a long, long time. The huge naval shells fired from 16-inch guns had drive bands on them. And it's no surprise as to why: The shell casing was iron, packed with hundreds of pounds of high explosives. No way in hell the charge was going to force that monster down fifty-some feet of barrel, the riflings in the bore having to cut grooves all the way around an iron casing that has a circumference of some four feet. Copper can be alloyed to be much softer than cast iron. Wears against the riflings much less, too. It makes us wonder why drive-band bullets are not widely available, rather than still an infant idea that no one has yet developed and marketed on a large scale.

spot on, homebrewer!