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The copper drive band bullet is the great equalizer and simplifier for the hunter. Take the 8x57 mm Mauser and the .270 Winchester. What would be the point of comparing such different cartridges ? The venerable 8 mm Mauser is, as we all know, a medium capacity cartridge for nearly medium bore caliber whereas the .270 Winchester (old though it may now be) is a much more modern long range cartridge of slightly over-bore capacity. Obviously there is no sense comparing the two, all things being equal. But things are no longer equal or should I perhaps say that unequal cartridges can now made equal. With the 8.2 g (127 grs.) KJG bullet the old 8 mm Mauser becomes, in terms of trajectory, the ballistic equal of the classic 130 grain .270 W load with a conventional copper/lead projectile. See: http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/8-mm-S/8x57IS.htm This is illustrated by the following graph showing the two trajectories almost perfectly overlapping. The .270 trajectory is calculated with the Nosler BT 130 grainer @ 3.140 f/s -which may be a tad hot. The mv. of the 8 mm KJG is the recommended 3.175 f/s with 47.68 grains of Norma 200. T1 (blue) is the .270 and T2 (red) is the 8 mm. See: http://farm5.static.flickr.com...971_4cf7140416_o.jpg But things can be made unequal again. Please note the third curve on the graph,T3 (pink). Here the .270 really comes into its element with much superior trajectory with the 6.8 mm KJG, albeit with a lighter bullet of 96 grs. @ 3.553 f/s on top of 53.4 grains of Norma 202. See: http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/6,86-mm/270-Win-KJG.htm | |||
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Petronius, how much do they cost? | |||
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they are expensive see here: http://sax-kjg-munition.de/kup...dgeschoss/index.html | |||
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140 euro's per box of 100. That's 186 U.S. dollars per 100. With tax and shipping, that's $200.00 per box. I like these prices alot better: http://www.shootersproshop.com...=8&s=393&t=Ballistic Tip Hunting Edison said "We will make electricity so cheap, only the rich will burn candles." You would make bullets so expensive only the rich would go hunting. | |||
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gerard, I take it then you have or will be filing suit for royalties or licensing against KJG? Although from your comments on your patent and the patent documents of Mr. Moeller, it would seem his patent was based on a novel use of the driving bands to decrease friction and increase velocity. By your own words, your patent dealt with the development of the first driving band bullet that could be seated to various depths in a cartridge case. You do not mention if you also patented it for velocity increase and friction reduction. It is entirely appropriate and anticipated for new use patent applications to cite prior art. However the applicant must show that the new use is not readily apparent. Was his patent voided due to your inquiry or that in retrospect, it did not satisfy the criteria of readily apparent? I would think even a casual observer could figure out that less metal in contact with the barrel would create less friction and hence higher velocity. Perhaps he thought it was novel enough to give him a marketing edge. Faster, flatter, and less barrel wear sells better than multiple seating depths. | |||
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Antelope Sniper one of us Posted 08 August 2010 22:28 Hide Post 140 euro's per box of 100. That's 186 U.S. dollars per 100. With tax and shipping, that's $200.00 per box. Homebrewer, I guess that answers your question! $2 per shot, just for the bullet. There is not enough of an advantage(if any) over what is in current use to justify that. | |||
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Not sure what the exact patent cpvered, nor what the laws say is or is not covered. But, I believe GS has been touting those very same benefots for a very long time:
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/newrules.html So, it would appear that the design was not only pinched, the marketing pitch has been likewise been copied and pasted. I certainly have no issue as a concumer with having more options available - competition tends to keep prices in check and wuality at a high level. But I do have a problem with a manufacturer or their rep making disproven claims of the novelty of their product and their outright denial of the obvious appropriation of an idea from another manufacturer. To me, that detroys all credibility in ttheir claims as to the performance of their product - if they are tist the facts in one place, how can you believe anything they put out? I for one don't believe that petronius has no affiliation with Moeller. His fiorst posts here were noting more than a sales pitch. And if petronius is indeed merely interested in alerting us to new and innovative products, one would think he would have been interested enough to know what else was already out there in the market. The fact that he has ignored the information posted by GS speaks volumes. And I don't think the fact that he provided no information in his profile was not an unintentional omission. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Jim Manion, I find it difficult to disagree with your comments. It is readily apparent GS's product was virtually copied and that the tactics used were downright sleazy. However, unless patented, trademarked or copyright material was used, there isn't much that can be done. It should be a valuable lesson to all that any time a manufacturer/service provider brings an outside party into the "inner sanctum" of their business, non-disclosure and no-compete documents should be signed. This will provide ready recourse should events like this arise. | |||
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jim manion, the simple reason for my writing exclusively about the kjg is that i only have experience with that product!  | |||
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What's so damn funny about being uninformed?  It's hard to believe a techno-ballistic guru like you never swerved into GS until now. You've been quick to reply to everyone else except the GS comments. Any reason? | |||
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Bobster, I believe GS does have a patent on the design: http://www.gsgroup.co.za/patent.html Not sure how international law works on patents in one country being recognized in another (probably depends on treaties), but I do know that getting a patent at least here in the US is pretty expensive. I would, however, find it hard to believe that one country would allow someone to patent something already patented in another country. In addition to GS, don't forget companies like Northfork have also been producing drive band bullets for some time now. petronius apparently finds his ignorance amusing, and wears it like a badge of honor. We'll see if our host wants to weigh in with an IP search to determine if petronius is affilated with Moeller, or whether he is just that disconnected from the real world. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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nothing at all, bobster...the funny thing is that you and im manion expect me to be writing about things i am not familiar with ! | |||
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Petronius: Tacitus, Plutarch and Pliny the Elder describe Petronius as the elegantiae arbiter, "judge of elegance" in the court of the emperor Nero. He served as consul in the year AD 62. Later, he became a member of the senatorial class who devoted themselves to a life of pleasure, whose relationship to Nero was apparently akin to that of a fashion advisor. Tacitus gives this account of Petronius in his historical work the Annals: He spent his days in sleep, his nights in attending to his official duties or in amusement, that by his dissolute life he had become as famous as other men by a life of energy, and that he was regarded as no ordinary profligate, but as an accomplished voluptuary. His reckless freedom of speech, being regarded as frankness, procured him popularity. Yet during his provincial government, and later when he held the office of consul, he had shown vigor and capacity for affairs. Afterwards returning to his life of vicious indulgence, he became one of the chosen circle of Nero’s intimates, and was looked upon as an absolute authority on questions of taste (elegantiae arbiter) in connection with the science of luxurious living. | |||
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Hey Hot Core, don't you know Hunters killing themselves with lead poisioning is real??? Look at all the documented cases!! Everyone knows hunters are WAY too stupid to cut out the bloodshot meat and throw it in the garbage!! | |||
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That's just it. You are writing about it as if field testing an article being prepared for some gun rag magazine. I wouldn't be surprised if you've been compensated with a "free hunt" to run some tissue tests. Purely for research of course. Or perhaps your employer is paying you to write about an important advertiser. I'm sure there is no direct exchange of cash. E-commerce requires a bit of subtlety. You just don't join a forum and dive-in to unabashed promotion. You need to hang around awhile and make a few insightful posts. You know - create some value for yourself. Then you can slip in a topic like: "Hey, look what I ran across....." or "What do you all think of this product?" or "Do you think this is the next game changer?" That's the art of the sale; getting people to talk themselves into it, not vomiting on them. Good luck with those bullets! Don't chip a tooth on a petal. | |||
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Truly amazing. The members of AR tend to be funny that way - they expect someone who starts a thread as an authority on a subject to actually be familiar about that which they speak. About the only thing you have done for Moeller is to paint him as someone of questionable ethics and business practices, and shown that the product you so highly tout is akin to some counterfeit Rolex made in China. Nice work, if that was your goal. You might want to establish some creditility by letting us know who you are, where you are from and what your association with the product is. We are past believing that you have no ties to the product, so why not try the truth for a change? SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Interesting. Same "designer Lutz Moeller" post on Shootersforum.com http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?p=519110 and guntrader.co.uk, and who knows how many other sites. Sounds like a bit of an "astroturfing" marketing going on here. And here is a link to an article written by a former member here on field comparisons on several different bullets: http://www.northforkbullets.co...Hunter%20Article.pdf
The "lost a lot of weight" comment was made out on act of editorial kindness. A 183 Grain Moeller bullet ended up with a retained weight of 90 grains, not even half of its original weight. Not exactly what you want in a hunting bullet. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Jim, good catch on his identical post over at Beartooth. Hmmm Same profile over there as well. New member, only posted on the one topic, and didn't have much more luck over there either!  | |||
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Might have to break this out if he comes back:  SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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this is the full commentary on the kjg (an older model) from http://www.northforkbullets.co...Hunter%20Article.pdf „Lutz Moeller of Germany offers solid copper, hollow point, boattail, driving band bullets of very light weight called the Kupferjagdgescholk (sic) The bullets are extremely accurate and are excellent for long range use. The fact that the bullets are light-for-calibre allows velocities to be pushed high in order to achieve a flat trajectory. In my tests, the Lutz Moeller bullets blew their nose off and lost a lot of weight, causing me to believe that they will be best when used on light game. However, they are very accurate and achieve surprisingly high velocities.“ „...for light game at long range the Lutz Moeller bullet can totally change the character of your rifle.“ just the thing for "antelope sniping" i should think ! | |||
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 That is a real problem with anyone shilling a product on this Board - they really do need to know what they are talking about as Jim mentioned, which apparently leaves this petronius shiller out.Here is a link to a thread - which has another link in the thread - to a CDC study of Lead Bullet Kills where they find it's Lower in people eating Game Killed with Lead Bullets than people who DO NOT eat Game Killed with Lead.When you know the CDC has "unlimited" financial resources to study the possible "causes" of Health Issues, and then they can't find a tie-in with Lead Bullets and people's health being compromised, it does appear petronius stepped off into the deep end of the pool without his inner tube. Now, if petronius would go back and "ADD" some Lead to the inside of that obviously "copied" Bullet design that Gerard showed, (taught, schooled, tutored, enlightened) him about, then petronius "might" have a Bullet worth shooting. And obvoiusly much SAFER health-wise.  Of course, he'd still need to bring the cost down about $180-$196/box to get them competitive. I've got some 30cal 150gr RNs that cost me $0.04 each ($4/box of 100) which still Kill just fine. Plus the Lead Core obviously makes me SAFER healthwise than using a Non-Lead Core Bullet. ----- Life is tough on shillers who don't know what they are talking about.  | |||
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i have already stated here that i have no financial interest in moeller´s enterprise and i have bought his expensive bullets at full price...i shall continue to do so while he remains in business and as long as i am able to hunt with a rifle (unless something better comes along, of course)...i do wish jim manning would go ahead with his inquiry into my computer id number...i am also willing to reveal, to him and, say, antelope sniper, my full personal details privately if i am assured that they be kept confidential...i have posted on the moeller bullet at two forums in the uk and with very limited interest shown by the forum population and one one american forum...i must say that i was surprised by what i sensed to be outright hostility i met here right from the start...i had hoped to find here unbiased, open minded interlocutors, interested in the technical aspects of reloading and shooting as i knew american shooters to be...on hindsight, though, i admit that my initial post may in its ardor have given people a reason to believe that i was employed by the producer of these bullets or had some other stake in his enterprice – which, i repeat, is absolutely not the case...surely it is not inconceivable to the people here that someone who strongly believes in a concept or an idea goes out of his way to make it known or available to others... i see moeller has put a link to this thread on his website here: http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/ having learned about its existence from me when i e-mailed him asking for a clarification on a technical matter... by the way it is an interesting feature of his vast website that he publishes mails to him there regardless whether they are positive or negative in regard to his products... as for the patent matter, it is irrelevant as it seems clear from what has been posted here (including gs) that the idea of drive band bullets is at least 170 years old and that it was in fact johan loubser who did the design work on which gs based his copper bullet (and indeed moeller, as he states on his website)...not only that, it is evident to those who want to look at this question objectively that there are conceptual differences between the the gs and the kjg bullets to say nothing of the differences in bullet weights... | |||
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Now 19 posts since registering 3 days ago and all in the same thread. See my post above:
Good post:
LWD | |||
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petronius says:
Gerard says:
 I wonder when Johan Loubser did this design work. Petronius, do you know, can you find out? VVarrior | |||
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If you spent any time here, you will find just that. But with reard to your comment about being "open minded", recognize that there are two elements to that concept - being open and having a mind. And having a mind means that people here are not going to swallow what someone tries to spoon feed them. As to the above reply, it is a fairly sleazy trick generally seen in politics to launch ad hominum attacks on those that pose legitimate quesitons and ovver valid differing viewpoints. So anyone that pushes back on what you are trying to sell here is "Hostile", "biased", "closed minded" and disinterested in the technical aspects of reloading. I would submit that one who so readily admits they have no knowledge of a subject is the one who has no interested in the technical aspects. As for this:
Closing one's eyes will not make it go away. In fact, the patent aspect if extremely relevant. One can get a patent by applying old technology from a different application to a new and different applicaiton. One can also patent methods, formulas, processes and designs. What makes it very relevant to the consumer of the goods in question is that goods found to be in violation of a patent can be deemed to be counterfeit and seized and destroyed. I believe you wrote on another board that we all live in free markets, so we should let the market decide who has the better product. Hate to break the news to you, but those free markets are subject to certain rules, like honoring patents. One who fails to honor another's patent rights can be shut down or forced to pay royalties in arrears. From what I have read, Moeller's German patent application was not approved, apparently because of the South African patent. The only person on this thread who is not looking at things objectively is the same person who started this thread and admitted that he had no clue about what he was talking about. And found his absence of knowledge amusing. By the way, although you claimed to have no knowledge of matters outside of your experience with Moeller's product, your posts defending the comments and observations here tell us otherwise. Which makes your denials of any affiliation with Moeller even more suspicious. If you are not affiliated, you are in such a state of hero worship you have lost all ability to engae in anything approaching objective thought, which is crystal clear form your posts here. Despite your self professed interest in the technical aspects of reloading, your interaction here has proven you are anything but that. A shill or a bullet groupie. Not sure which is worse. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Fashion Advisor to Nero, you will notice my issues with you proposition is 3 fold. 1. You cannot ignore Sir Issac Newton. When you speak of penetration of brush close to the target, this has been a know phenomina since the 1970 when guns and ammo published the "dowel tests". They discovered, that contrary to popular belief of the time, round nose, and flat nose bullets did not perform best in deflection situations, but high velocity, high mass (read high momentum) bullets with a spire point design. As an example the 250gr Sierra gamekings out of a .338 Mag performed well. The most interesting finding, was that in order to have a change of hitting an obscured target, the deflection point needed to be with 2" or less of the target. Again you are just taking a known phenomina, and adapting it for your marketing purposes. 2. When you bring in the lead poisioning issue, it demonstrates you are not REALLY a member of the gun culture dedicated to protecting our right. Instead you would stoop to scare tactics to shill your bullets. Our sport does not need friends like that, and I will not support, with my dollars, companies that support lead bans, smart guns, microstamping, trigger locks ect to push their product at the expense of the sport. 3. Cost. A machined bullet is more expensive then a swagged bullet. A copper bullet is more expensive then a lead bullet A European bullet is more expensive then an American made bullet. In order to shoot antelope at ranges between 600 and 1000 yards, you need to go too the range, pull the trigger, and convert large quantities of gunpowder into noise. Now shooting solid gold bullets might look good on paper, but they are worthless if they are too expensive to practice with. So, Fashion Advisor to Nero, you claim to just be one of us? Let me ask you this, what is you SECOND favorite bullet? Show us some groups you've shot with something else. You are a reloader? Great! What loads are you using in what rifles? Please include pictures. Jim mentioned it's possible you are just a bullet groupie. It's also possible you are just a kid. That would explain alot of your failure to understand your audience. | |||
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petronius, You obviously base this on what Moeller says on his website, namely:
Shortly after the tests we did at Somchem in March 2000, Johan left for the USA. I have not had any contact with Johan since the tests of March 2000. Prior to the tests, I spoke to Johan three times. I tried to convince him to allocate time in his testing schedule to look at my drive band concept. The third time he agreed to the test date of March 2000. Earlier today I called him and quoted him the above parts from Moeller's site. He confirmed that, although he has done some work with reduced bearing surface bullets, we have never discussed the subject, other than at Somchem in March 2000 and that the work he did on reduced bearing surface projectiles was unrelated to my work with drive bands. I specifically asked Johan whether, if I made the statement that we have had no discussion around drive band design/reduced bearing surface, he would feel that such a statement is not true. Johan confirmed that he cannot contradict such a statement. At the conclusion of the March 2000 tests, Johan's words to me were that, although some of the larger bullets tested were not yet fully optimised, I definitely have something new and that the smaller calibers were a cut above what he had seen up to that point. Johan said that he knows Moeller well and has spoken to him on a number of occasions. PS. Did you watch the TT in June? Ian Hutchinson is quite the champion. Five race wins in the week and 8 TT's to his name. | |||
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Got to thinking about this thread last night. Not sure which of the responders posts got me to thinking about it, but it dawned on me that something was "entirely missing"! Either, it wasn't in any of the shiller's posts, I'd forgotten he mentioned it, or perhaps I'd skipped past it once I realized it was simply a pitifully poor Marketing shill. Just went back and did a quick scan of each of the posts made by our shiller petronius and noticed something totally missing that is in every other Bullet Thread you will find on this Board. It speaks volumes for Marketing folks who have NEVER used the product they are shilling - no first had experience using the product!!! In all the other Bullet Threads you will see a person either "ask" about a specific Bullet performs and then people tell him of their actual first-hand experiences. Or someone begins a thread and says something like, "I got a new(to me) Bullet a couple of years ago and "I" have now Killed 20-100 head of Game with it. Compared to my old Bullet, this new Bullet does "xxxxx" and "xxxxx" better. I've only recovered "x" of them and they avaraged "xx%" weight retention." And they typically ask if ANYONE else has used it and what their results were. ------ Used Yugo salesmen DO NOT make good Bullet shillers! - Hot Core | |||
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HC, leave the Yugo out of this. It did it's job. This guy doesn't. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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Hey HotCore, maybe it was this quote that got you thinking:
Even good for nothing  Bushwacker had pictures of his rifles. | |||
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Hi, I want to join the thread, because a I am a German user of Mr. Möllers bullets. Until now I only had positive experience with the KJG bullets. Since I am reloading them myself they are not more expensive than out of the box Cartridges like RWS, Norma, etc... You may see this here: Price of RWS 9,3X62 in Germany That means 5,45 Euro per shot for the RWS. The KJG is much cheaper. It is 1,3 Euro for the bullet, and about 70 Cents for the rest. What makes the KJG cartridge also nice in my opinion is, that according to the very light bullet weight (10g = 154 Grain), my 9.3X62 has a significantly less recoil in comparison to the 290 grain RWS bullet. It is really nice to have one Caliber from fox to Cape buffalo so. | |||
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According to the costs of hunting, the ammunition price is infinitesimal. Of course you have to practice, that’s expensive with KJG, but affordable when you use one or two calibers for hunting. Practically you do not exceed 300m distance when hunting here in germany, so there is no need or sense training long distance shoots like 600-1000m what I heard in this thread, that is bullshit anyway, I don’t like self-styled precision shooters at the hunt. No, I’m not in business with Lutz, yes, I use KJG and pay the full price, no, I won’t discuss bullet deflection theories or external ballistics except they are concrete and comprehensible. I’ve reloaded KJ bullets for my rifles in following calibers: 6,5x68 .308 Win .416 Rigby .338 Lapua Magnum 7x64 9,3x64 Terminalballistic experience (hunting) in .308 Win, 9,3x64 and 7x64, KJG works well in all these calibers, when asked I will explain for each caliber. The other calibers I have no hunting experience as yet with KJG, only reloading and shooting “on Paper”. At least: Lutz is not an easy person, I don’t sympathizise with his views sometimes, but he is nowadays one of the damned best bullet designers. Manche Menschen haben einen Gesichtskreis vom Radius Null, und nennen ihn ihren Standpunkt. David Hilbert | |||
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----- Hey AS, I'd been glad to have given you credit for kicking my mind in gear, just couldn't remember who to give the credit to(and tooooo busy to go back and re-re-re-read all the posts). ----- Now we have some folks who have actually "used" the Bullets join in. Gooood!!! Ya'll feel free to tell us how they are "better" than the previous Hunting Bullets you have used. Any kind of comparison from actual users is excellent input: 1. Number of Kills? 2. Size of the Game? 3. Penetration depth? 4. Weight Retention? 5. Entrance/Exit hole sizes? 6. Good Blood Trails? 7. Drop in their Tracks? 8. One or multiple shots to Kill the game? 9. Accuracy? 10. Reloading concerns? 11. Are they readily available in Germany - on the shelf? Basically the typical stuff us actual Hunters would discuss about a new Bullet. Especially interested in the 308Win info, which a lot of us will have vast experience using regular old totally excellent Jacketed Lead Bullets. ----- Hey SunFlares, After seeing that Gerard taught Lutz how to construct the Bullet, how is it you see Lutz as a great Bullet Designer? Does Designer in German translate to Copier? Not trying to be argumentative, it is just that I do not see how Lutz can be thought of so highly. What did he think of "as new"? | |||
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wow! does it whip up a biscuits-and-gravy breakfast, too?  | |||
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I have to admit that although I peruse various threads on AR on a daily basis, I very rarely post any messages here, feeling that my contributions would probably be insignificant in the grand scheme of things. However, having spent the past hour reviewing this entire thread and most of the linked items, I have to say that it has been one of the most entertaining discussions that I have ever seen on the web. I have watched a clearly novice shill (who knows what his/her background may be - marketer, representative, techie, groupie, etc., whatever) trying to sell something that he/she knows almost nothing about to a very savvy and knowledgeable audience that is not easily impressed by wild claims and distorted arguments). It clearly illustrates a couple of very basic principles in the art of marketing or even persuasion: 1)be very familiar with the product you are selling and be able to clearly show that you are an experienced user yourself, if appropriate; and 2) be even more familiar with the competitors' products to show how you can offer a demonstrably better product at comparable or lower price. It's very difficult to justify a substantially higher price unless the vastly superior at achieving the desired result. If I can reliably kill whatever game animal I seek with a $0.10 cup-and-core or bonded core lead bullet, why should I consider spending several times that cost for a solid copper bullet (except on the Left Coast where lead-based bullets are banned on the basis of enviro-political paranoia? My thanks to all of those members who have artfully dissected the presentation of Petronius and reminded me of the reasons the I visit this forum. Hopefully, it Petronius remains a member, perhaps he/she will develop a better understanding of the hunting and reloading sports and an appreciation for the critical discussions involved here. In the meantime, I would recommend to him/her that they try some cheaper bullet alternatives that can provide equal or greater performance at a substantially reduced price. I enjoy reloading too much to be spending that much money on a single component. Let's see, a few thousand rounds per year (if I'm lucking getting to the range) times how much per bullet.... WOW!! | |||
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[/QUOTE]: Hey SunFlares, After seeing that Gerard taught Lutz how to construct the Bullet, how is it you see Lutz as a great Bullet Designer? Does Designer in German translate to Copier? [/QUOTE] Hi Hot Core, unfortunately i can't give a professional opinion on the patent quarreling between Lutz and Gerard. The shown documents must arouse suspicions that Lutz benefits from Gerards already existing bullets, but the actual KJG und high BC bullets show a consistent further development. Nobody would label Sikorsky as an copier, he was developing a helicopter for many years, but did he benefits from Zaschka and later from Focke-Wulf inventions? Regarding .308 Win info, who do you think i am? Do you want to question me, who are you, Kajamoro Bell, the 7x57 elephant hunter with jacketed lead bullets? Ok, calm down... My very small experiences in comparison to Kajamoro "Hot Core" Bell with .308 Win (KJG).. maybe tomorrow, it's late. Manche Menschen haben einen Gesichtskreis vom Radius Null, und nennen ihn ihren Standpunkt. David Hilbert | |||
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Sunflares, I can appreciate that your hunting condition may be different in Germany, but I'm not hunting in Germany, I'm hunting in Great American West. When you hunt a critter with 4 power vision, that can run 60 mph, over a flat prairie where you can see for miles, you might have to adapt your hunting technique. In one area we hunt, I've seen pronghorns (goats as we call them) spook at the sight of a vehicle from over 2 miles away. As you mentioned, most hunters are not very competent past 300 yards, and the antelope know this, so they have a tendeny to hang out at a distance....so the hunter that can shoot 600 to 1000 yards with confidence, has a significant advantage over the 300 yard shooter. These shots are no BS, it's just what it takes where I choose to hunt. Now I imagine there are many hunts in Germany where my 12 pound, 30" barreled long shooter wouldn't server much of a purpose. But if you want to come out here and hunt antelope in the late season, I would suggest you mount some top quality optics on your .338 Lapua and start practicing at 400+ yards. As for HotCore's questions, I think they are great questions, and I would really like to know the answers. But I would rather hear those answers for YOU, a hunter that has actually put lead....er...copper on target and not some company shill. | |||
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I would like you to repeat this, when you are facing Mbogo at 30m with your 9.3 loaded with 154gr plastic tipped bullets, and he decides to come check what you are made of. Taking the above into consideration, I would take issue with that statement. Has anyone here actually shot a cape buffalo with a 154gr 9.3? VVarrior | |||
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