Which would you choose for small game? I would like something with a bit more than a 22 LR, can't decide between 223 or a magnum rimfire. Of the two rimfires, which would you choose? I'm leaning towards the 22 WMR, heavier bullets, less wind drift, and would be dramatically flatter shooting than my 22 LR though not quite as flat as 17 HMR. Better for slightly larger game choice too. The one thing that really matters to me is accuracy though, I've heard 17 HMR is much more accurate. I like Savage rifles, and they are priced well, what do youg uys think about their rifles and 22 vs 17?

Thanks for any help!

It depends on what kind of hunting you're wanting to do. You really can't go wrong with a .22lr, and in skilled hands it's a rather potent little cartridge. Now the .22wmr is a good deal more powerful and in Savage's bolt action rifles, they're actually quite accurate. Of course that's all depending on what kind of ammo you're feeding your rifle. I've cleanly taken animals all the way up to several fox with the WMR, and haven't had any reservations about using this cartrige for any animals up to that size. I've nabbed a couple of rabbits all the way out to 200 yards with the same rifle as well, back in Kodiak.
The .17's are extremely accurate and they have a lot of zip as well, however I would be a little cautious about using the .17 on animals up to and including fox. Most of the bullets in this round are rather violent and don't really give a good deal of penetration. They give some impressive results on squirrels, rabbits, starlings and a lot of small birds as well.
The savage rifles are a lot for what they're priced at, usually incredibly accurate and last a lifetime. Even their budget rifles are pretty damn accurate. My only gripe is they're usually a little rough around the edges, however that's a easy fix.
IMHO I'd stick to a 22wmr.

Also you mentioned about possibly using a .223. What kind of ranges are you expecting to be shooting at? Another cartridge you could look into is the .22 Hornet. I own a NEF in this chambering and it's incredibly accurate and is a dream out to about 300 yards, in the right conditions. It's a blast, just be careful reloading this little cartridge.

I can't speak to the 22WMR but like my and my fathers 17HMR's. As The MEtalsmith noted, the ballistic tipped rounds are quite explosive. They really do a number on English Starlings.

I'm not familiar with the new 20 grain hollowpoints but hear that they penetrate much better and expand rather that fragmenting.

There is a ton of info on http://www.rimfirecentral.com. Just scroll down to the ammo section and look at 17HMR. Lots of info from guys that shoot a lot of that ammo.

With a 22 LR I've hit clays out to around 200 yards, and have hit a few crows at that distance, although it doesn't have enoug power to put them down very often. Just yesterday I shot a coyote in the chest at what I would guess around 100-125 yards, but it didn't do anything but make it yelp and run off. A Stevens in 223 would be almost perfect for me, and I've been looking into a 223, but the noise is more than acceptable to be shooting alot, as I have neighbors that live close. 22 WMR sounds like what I need, it has better ammo choices that should easily take a crow humanly at 200 yards. Are there any other cartridges with plenty of power but little noise for these ranges?

The .22wmr is a fine choice for what you have listed. If there are neighbors around and if it's a concern, I certainly would not use a .223 under any circumstance. Not only would it be loud, but the concern of the bullet carrying on is critical.
I believe a fairly low power .22 centerfire would be great for this. The .22 Hornet or even the .22 K-Hornet would be wonderful. These rounds are pretty much the bridge between the .22 rimfires and centerfires. They have enough power and have absolutely no recoil, so following up your shot is easy as it gets. Plus they are not very loud at all.
Best of luck with you choices man!

22 Hornet is pretty nice, and Savage makes that single shot for it...hmmmm. All I have now is 22's, a 7mm RM and 45-70. Neighbors don't like the last two. Considering I learn the trajectory, how far are the 22 WMR and 22 Hornet good on crow sized game, respectively?

What would it cost to get it chambered to 22 K Hornet? Much improved case life and ease of reloading plus better ballistics.

I have a savage 17 hmr and I really like it. I has a fairly cheap 3-9x scope and I can hit stuff out to about 200 yards. I have talked to people who have shot bobcats with it using the hollow points and they said it did a quick job at putting it down. I have not used it on something this big but have done alot of damage on some rabbits, birds and squirrels. The v-max bullets seem to not make as much of a mess on smaller animals as the hollow points.

Doubt the .22 WMR could hit a crow at 200 yds. What with the accuracy, drop and drift.

For me coyotes are the lowest common demominator and I don't see the .17 WMR cutting it there.

I have 17 HM2, 17 HMR, 22LR, 22WMR ,22 Hornet, and 221 Rem Fireball rifles. I plan on geting the new Rem 17 Fireball when they come out this year. If you are not going to shoot coyotes or larger varmints then the 17 HM2 and 17 HMR would work for you . If you plan on eating squirrel and or rabbits the old 22 LR or 17 HM2 will do but the 17 HM2 is much flatter shooting. If you you are to only shoot small varmints out to about 150 Yds the 17 HMR will do. The 22 WMR is flat shooting out to about 125 Yds. Since muzzle blast is a problem in your area for coyotes consider the Rem 221 or the new Rem 17 Fireball which are about 225 Yd rifles. The old 22 Hornet is the rifle that sets in my gun case and it would cost about $ 50 to get it rechambered to a K Hornet. You may hit varmints or small game at longer ranges than what I listed but its the first shot that counts whith the bullet energy to drop the critter.

I've been thinking, and more than anything I would like to get into long range shooting, 223's have cheap ammo and super premium stuff, I've heard that most Savage's shoot the Winchester white box fmj good, how loud is this stuff compared to say a 7mm RM? I've shot it without muffs, (yes bad decision, I know) and it left my ears ringing, but not as bad as a semi-auto 30-06 I shot without earmuffs (yes, once again bad decision), how would a 223 compare to them?

As a farmer who shoots pests from starlings to coyotes .. including skunks, coons, woodchucks ect I have used both 17 hmr and 22 mag alot, nearly daily. There is no comparison to me, the 22 mag with the 33 grn HP supremes is night and day ahead of the 17 mag. They act like a 223 on starlings, with heads going up and wings blown off, tough old feral tomcats go lights out when hit and coyotes hit up through 100 yds make it no more then 40 yds before going down. In my heavy barreled marlin, the supremes are every bit as accurate as the savage 17 I have. After I glassed the marlin and lightened the trigger it has no problem staying an inch at 100 yds, which is better then the sav.

hello

i have a 22mag,17hmr,22lr,and 223

the 223 is not in the same group as the others
much more everything(power,range and alot louder)

the 22mag is a very good round, accurate, not to loud, all the bullets for the 22mag work about the same never seen any real difference

the 17hmr is just as good as the 22mag
i feel that it has more range
the 20gr gametips work just like a softpoint on a biggame rifle
the 20gr fmj are just that make little bitty holes, me and my brother use then for pelt hunting

i want a 22 hornet also
i feel that it would be a perfect in between
the 223 and 22/17 mags

like i need another gun

If you reload, the .223 becomes infinately more versatile. I download mine to about 1750 fps with a 40 grain bullet to use for small game and have had good results. They're quiet and low recoil. On the occasions where I have had targets of opportunity appear at close range (coyotes, hogs, etc.) they have worked on them as well. Same gun withe full bore loads makes a believer out of coyotes, cats, and long range varmints.

For hunting groundhogs, I have had my best luck with the 22 Mag... it certainly anchors the hogs on the spot. i have had too many groundhogs crawl off with the .17 HMR.

I have also shot fox with the .22 Mag very effectively.

The .22 Hornet is a wonderful cartridge for a light centerfire, especially if you are shooting within 150 yds. After that, I would opt for the .223.

IN my area, there are counties that do not allow use of centerfire cartridges for varmints, so the .22 Mag fills that need.

heres a pic of some cans full of water,one shot with a 22 hp on the right,the other with a 17m2 both at about 25 yds.quite a difference.not sure what it means,but there it is

I have seen some devastating wounds created with a 17HMR om coyotes, but I would probably go with 22WMR for the heavier bullet weights. I have owned both, but currently don't own either (in a rifle). If I shoot rimfire, it is a 22LR. Just call me CHEAP!

I finally tried some stingers, not super accurate out of my old Marlin, but it makes cans look like the HM2 one.

17 all the way

I love stingers,,have a 10/22 that shoots them pretty good,,, .223 would be a good starter round for long range shooting,,it's gonna force you to read wind,range,,,etc. ,,,once you figure it out,,you can easily take out tail lights @ 600 yds. nice thing about it,,you can get a wide range of bullet weights for it,,35-80 grns.. maby look at some H-Bars. Your neighbor is gonna like it as much as your 6mm. You're not gonna have much left of any small game lesser than a ground hog with it,,,Have fun! Clay

How refreshing it is to read posts of experienced shooters who can, without bias, discuss the .22 WMR vs. .17 HMR subject and do so without endless banter that goes no where -- as it has done on some other threads.

I, too, prefer the old .22 Magnum and have no issues with inaccuracy, as some would have you believe. On game up to gray fox in size (8-11 pounds), the HMR does OK, but the .22 Magnum, with its higher attendant energy, is more authoritative. In some of my varmint calling places where the ranges won't ever exceed 75-80 yards, I even use the .22 Magnum on coyotes and bobcats and have taken countless 'yotes and a number of 'cats without ever losing one -- and most either expire in their tracks or easily inside of 50 yards.

And around the farm, the .22 Magnum is the "utility" rifle that gets pressed into use no matter if the target is a feral cat, a chicken-stealing 'coon or some other type of vermin.

My favored loads are the Rem 33 grainer, the Winchester 34 grainer (which used to come in a 250-count varmint pack until WW started pinching pennies/raising prices) and the newer-style CCI 40 grain JHP.

I gave the .17 HMR a good workout over a couple of years, but for my applications, it was lacking in comparison to the .22 Mag. Even on 'possums and 'coons, and using the more-effective 20 grain XTPs, animals hit in the chest woud take off at the shot as if nothing happened. Granted, they'd expire within 25-30 yards, but in brushy terrain or in night calling, retrieval can be difficult if not impossible. With the .22 Magnum, they almost always drop right in their tracks.

If I lived in gopher, picket pin or prairie dog country, I may appreciate the merits of the HMR a little more, but for me, the .22 Magnum is the clear-cut choice.

I grew up shooting a browning pump in 22wmr and love it. I found it to be the ideal truck gun out in the country for rabbit, possum and coon. Then I bought my Marlin 917V and slapped a 3X9 40mm Simmons off my .243 on it. In my opinion no rimfire can touch it for crow shooting. I routinely make hits on grackels to 200 yards. I have also used it with astonishing success on rabbit at night under the headlights. If I can see the bunny he's dinner. Note: shoot rabbits in the head as bodyshots make a mess; at 80 yards, headshots leave nothing from the ears forward. Skunks, possums and Coons have all fallen immediately as well; indeed the HMR with the 17gr. TNT has proved supperior to my WMR with 40gr CCI Hps on coons. I have been attempting to call coyotes into range for headshots using the 20gr xtp but have not had a shot yet. And lastly accuracy-this combination has proven to shoot circles around my brother's 1022 Target witha Leupold 3x9 on top, much to my brother's chagrine.

Not to bash the 17HMR it is a fine target round one of the most accurate rounds that I've ever shot. It just would not get the job done on 80% of the pests I shoot at 80 yards or better.

We have unfortunely a few feral dogs, yotes,coons, hogs and skunks where I live. I can tell you over 80 yards and the HMR does not have the bullet weight to carry out pen. I have a HK 300 in a 22 mag and with the 33 grain V-max bullet it barely has enough. I've been using a 221 fireball with a 35grn V-max. Now that turns them inside out.

I will have to agree with Ferretguy on one thing. The 17HMR is death or blackbirds. Just a poof of feathers, pretty cool.

505ED

Another factor in the equation.......ammunition cost. If one is uncomfortable with $10-$12/50 rds. of 17HMR then he should go with 22Mag which is probably half. r in s.

quote:

Originally posted by ray in seattle:
Another factor in the equation.......ammunition cost. If one is uncomfortable with $10-$12/50 rds. of 17HMR then he should go with 22Mag which is probably half. r in s.

I don't think this will be true for much longer. The 17 is becoming way more popular than the 22 mag and takes less material to make. I saw for the first time today a store with the 22 more expensive than the 17. While not common yet I think this is the way things will go. Think of other very popular rounds...9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP...their cost scales very closely with weight of materials. I don't think the 17 H2 will ever be cheaper than the 22LR as nothing will ever come close to the volume of the real rimfire king.

With only one company geared up to produce .17 HMR ammo, I don't think you'll see any drop in prices. In fact, it has only gone up in price.

When I was shooting my last .17 HMR (over a year ago), the Hornady 20 grain XTP ran 7.99 per box. You can't easily find a price like that anymore. I've seen the ammo marked well over $10 per box lately.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
What would it cost to get it chambered to 22 K Hornet? Much improved case life and ease of reloading plus better ballistics.

Depends on the rifle. For something like a contender or NEF etc it's very cheap @ 1/2 hr labor & test fire. If the barrel needs to be removed it would @ triple the cost. That said, the K is a much better round IMO and I've had & chambered many of them in the past 40 yrs. Very efficient, acurrate. I knew an old guy in CO that had one in a win 54 that he shot an elk with every year (neck) )
You can load them down to WMR speeds if needed for noise.

Looks like I'll make do with what I have, made the National Smallbore shooting team and that target ammo is EXPENSIVE! $12-$15 for 50...sure is accurate though. It does the job on blackbirds too if I read the distance well, but I probably shouldn't be wasting money like that. For coyotes I think I'm going to load up some 120 grain v-max for my 7mm. What kind of spectacular results should I get on small game with it at about 3600 fps?

I have a CZ in 17HMR. Very nice rifle and I like to shoot it.But the price of the ammo is really starting to piss me off.

Tyler, I own .17, .22 & .223 since you mention them. The .17 is a blast. I use it on squirrels, crows and ground hogs. On squirrels, go for head shots. It usually vaporizes them. No damage to the meat if you take head shots. Crows; it blows right on through but doesn't explode them (as a rule) like the .223 w/55gr superX bullets. Ground hogs; it makes a tiny entrance hole with no exit. Inside it's jello. Too bad ground hogs don't have sellable fur, although they tie a mean Smallmouth Bass fly/jig. I have the .17 in a s/s Savage. Very accurate gun. I was surprised at its accuracy. Good hunting, LDK

This has been a most informative thread. Thanks to all who have posted objectively and civilly. I am in the process of the same decision, and have found this very useful.
Straight shooting,
Graham

I use both here in Australia i wouldnt use the 17hmr on anything bigger than foxes,otherwise its a real great little round,mine is a savage very accurate just watch the magazine feed tho.The 17 is fantastic on rabbits and pest birds,but then if you are shooting mainly foxes or bigger game the 22mag is more humane.

T.K.,
We used the 17 recently in New Zealand and it was great for the Hares and Opossums! The wind really screws with the light bullet though. I wouldn't worry about accuracy in a Savage 22 WRM. I have had 2 that shot really well. I went to the 223 because I could handload shells for about what the rimfires cost and had much greater range and could even take bigger animals with careful placed shots.

Hawkeye47

Interestingly enough, the .17 HMR has a higher BC than a .22 WMR, so it is affected less by wind than the heavier round. As a 200-yard crow killer, it can't be beat.

Since quite accurate rifles can be had in either caliber for $200 +/-, I think you ought to buy one of each and sell the one you don't like

I know of one eastern New Mexico coyote that would disagree with several's assesment of the effectiveness of a .17HMR on him.

If you are planning on eating what you shoot, go with the .22 WMR. The 50 grain Federal load is a far better killer than any .22lr load without being as destructive as the lighter loads or the .17 HMR.

I love my Ruger .22mag, but tonight I had a rabbit at 173 metres on the range finder. There"s no way I"d have hit that with the .22 mag. My mate handed me his Ruger 17HMR, and holding a couple of inches above the bunnies ears, I nailed him through the shoulders with a 17grain poly tip.
I"m not giving up my magnum, but I have to admit it"s not as good a bunny getter as the 17.
good shooting

I have a CZ452 in .22WMR, it's lights out accurate with a number of loads it likes the Rem 33 Vmax alot, I'll bet it likes the new CCI 30 vmax too. Having shot them side by side the 17 went away, ammo costs more, it's no more accurate than my 22 mag and when the 22 mag gets there it's twice as heavy as the 17. I can hit things at 200 with it and it hits harder than the 17 out there.

quote:

Hornet

My father in law shoots prairie dogs with a .17 Ackley Hornet - basically a 22 hornet necked down.

Fantastic velocity, very accurate. He was shooting p-dogs a few weeks ago and shot over 1000 rounds of 17 AH. That's a lot of dead prairie dogs. He uses the 17HM2 for close in targets.

I don't know a lot about little rounds - my FIL is the expert.