thanks for the info men,tried the igc on my srh480 310gr lfnpb ,shooting 31.0gr-h110 @ 1550fps looks like it helped cut back on leading,more shooting to be done but looks promising,the igc raised the velocity 90fps for this charge weight compared to same charge weight without igc.

[ 02-23-2003, 05:41: Message edited by: 475/480 ]

This is a pic of the Applegate Spitzer sent to me by Sky. Nice lookin' boolit.

Particulars are:
1.5deg tapered bullet
nose-
.4497" @ ~.3" ahead of fwd lube groove,
.4541" @ ~.1" ahead of fwd lube groove,

bands-
fwd: ..4584"
rear: .4589"

Length 1.421"

All info based on alloy = WW + ~2% Sn by weight - air cooled.

Aladin:

A: Now-- we might as well run the whole thang.. What alloy do you use?

F: I'm not really as careful as some when it comes to selection of alloy. My material comes from the typical several sources of uncertain reliability. I make up batches of alloy in 100 pound lots, each made by mixing until I get "test" bullets of the right hardness and weight. I estimate the mix to be 94% Lead 4% Anitmony 2% Tin. Just an estimate mind!

A: Do you have a lube preference?

F: WAY back I really liked M&N. When it went out of production I tested the typical several lubes for a replacement. I settled on dull/normal Javelina, which I have been buring for years now.

A: And what dia to you shoot in relation to bore dia?

F: I like the bullets to be about 0.001 bigger than the groove diameter of my barrel. I've gone to considerable expence to get custom bullet molds to drop right at or very close to the correct diameter to minimize sizing.

There have been some barrels and chambers that were rather crazy to feed though. Like the 40/65 from Red Willow Ballard. This one had a 0.414 freebore for 0.200 ahead of the chamber and a standard size bore of 0.409. It needed bullets of 0.413 to shoot its best, another custom mold of course.

Good evening,
Forrest

475/480:

475: Thanks for the info men,tried the igc on my srh480 310gr lfnpb, shooting 31.0gr-h110 @ 1550fps..

F: OK. Here I'm going to show how green I am about a few things. What is a "srh480"? I have no clue.

It must be something pretty big I guess to be burning 31 grains H110! I'm VERY interested to read that the IGC seems to work in your gun. But I don't know if it is a rifle, pistol, revolver, automatic or whatever.

Good evening,
Forrest

(Ruger) super redhawk(srh) -revolver 6 shot

I was hoping Tom from TMT Enterprises would get back to me with BC data for the Applegate Spitzer of Sky's. Not yet unless I misplace it. Here's the LBT .460 SP1R he worked up.

Aladin:

A: I was hoping Tom from TMT Enterprises would get back to me with BC data for the Applegate Spitzer of Sky's. Not yet unless I misplace it. Here's the LBT .460 SP1R he worked up...

F: Both those bullets are too good looking to shoot at all. They are art and should be framed, not fired.

I'd send you a picture of my Gunn Long Range, as modified by me, if I had the right camera. It isn't so shiney but it does have its points.

Perhaps if I sent you one you could do the honors?

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Be glad to photo that bullet Forrest. I think Tom would work it up too for his files. I'll send my particulars per a PM.

Aladin:

A: (I'd) Be glad to photo that bullet Forrest. I think Tom would work it up too for his files. I'll send my particulars per a PM.

F: .."PM".. Private Message?

Do you need anything from my end for such a thing?

Good morning,
Forrest

F: Do you need anything from my end for such a thing?

Me: Forrest just send the bullets. You got my addy from the PM?

Howdy gentlemen-

In one of my prior posts - I mentioned how I was having some trouble getting good castings with the new mould. The problem was that on some portions of the nose of the bullet - when the blocks got hot, I was getting an odd kind of surface porosity. This was not uneven frosting - but what appeared to be very small areas of surface voids or contamination.

I believe I have located the source of the problem and thought I'd mentioin it in case others may occasion to experience the same.

It appears that the problem is one of thermal management. I noted that when the mould blocks were cool - the surface of the bullets came out smooth and shiny - the way I like. When the mould temp gets warm - I would experience the problem. My first attempt was to try and allow the mould blocks to cool with faces open after dropping the bullets from the cavities. It did eliminate the surface defect problem but it also caused the faces of the blocks to cool to the point I would not get complete fill-out on the subsequent castings. I fiddled around with timing on this and basically abandoned the approach. On a suspicion - I decided to allow the blocks to get hot again but left the bullets in the cavities for awhile. This is different from my normal rythm with smaller bullets in that for most work - I fill the cavities - allow a second or so for the sprue to solidify & then cut it off with a gloved hand and then drop the bullets and start again. If the sprue isn't sufficiently cool - the sprue tears out a bit of metal. I'm sure you guys have experienced this.

Anyhow - my suspicion about letting the bullets cool in the cavities longer was prompted by the sprue cutting observation. Given the considerable mass of these bigger bullets - I wondered if the alloy was retaining heat longer and just not quite strong when I'd open the mould. (Note - the sprue was cutting cleanly and not tearing out when I was experiencing the surface problem.) It seems my hunch turned out to be correct. When I left the bullets to cool longer in the cavities (I haven't settled on the timing for this yet but I was allowing perhaps 45 secs to 2 minutes)- then dropped the bullets; they dropped out nice and smooth. And...when I'd fill the mould again - iiwas still warm and produced good fill out for subsequent castings.

As I have begun to stabilize my technique with the big bullets/mould - the weight variation is down to an ES of 0.6 gr. - that is from one end of the casting session to the other. Oh - and that is counting all bullets from both cavities - difference between the cavities is nil for weight/dimensions.

The short version of the above is that BIG bullets appear to want to cool in the cavities a bit longer before opeinging the blocks and dropping them from the mould.

Best regards-

Sky C.

Aladin:

A: You got my addy from the PM?

F: Nope. Nothing has shown at my Yahoo site.

I have also used the PM option here on "Accurate" to send you my personal email. Did you receive it?

Good morning,
Forrest

Sky C.,

S: In one of my prior posts - I mentioned how I was having some trouble getting good castings with the new mould..

F: Roger the problem and your technique to fix it.

I, having encountered similar problems, would suggest that you try my current "best" solution for the sprue-cooling problem encountered in casting 500+ grain bullets.

I always use two molds when casting heavy bullets. This is nothing new in the game of slowing the casting cycle to allow cooling. This helpped of course, however, I STILL encountered torn sprues now and then before futher refinement of technique.

Now I have gone to putting a cool ingot of lead on top of the mold right after it has been filled, almost before the puddle of lead on the sprue plate has solidified. This, as you see, provides a good heat-sink for the critical cut-off procedure and supliments the cooling of the whole mold to some degree.

The "cool" ingot will heat up quickly and must be cycled now and then with other ingots that are really cool in order for the procedure to remain consistent.

Good morning,
Forrest

Forrest I resent my particulars via a PM here. Let me know if you get this one.

Here's the BC of the Applegate Spitzer as computed by Tom Myers of TMT Enterprises. The BC [ballistic coefficent] went .460 which is very good for a 45/70 slug. Actually one of the best for it's type.

Aladin:

A: Here's the BC of the Applegate Spitzer as computed by Tom Myers of TMT Enterprises..

F: That is a very good looking bullet Jay. Where can I go to look at any other Applegate designs and perhaps pass along the information to my non-computer-literate friends or order something myself?

Also, nothing yet on my Yahoo site. Have you received anything on "Accruate" PM?

Good morning,
Forrest

Good morning gentlemen-

Aladin:
Thank you for having Tom calculate the BC on this Applegate bullet. I've sent it along to Rob for his own reference.

Forrest:
Rob is a one man operation and doesn't have a website up - yet. If you'd like - Rob has sent me his brochure via e-mail with a listing of his various designs and I'd be happy to forward it for your review. If you'd like, send me your PM at sc_mobile@yahoo.com and I'll get it sent off to you.

Seeing as you are quite experienced at this long range game whereas I am not - I wonder if you might be interested in running a few of these projectiles down range and offer up a report? I would be happy to donate some for the purpose. If you'd like to accept, please let me know if my regular alloy of WW + 2% Sn is acceptable (BHN approx. 12.5) or if you would prefer something different. I'll do my best to deliver you a batch as near perfect as I can make them. I'd like to hear how well they can perform from someone who has the experience and reference point to give an honest evaluation. Let me know.

Best regards-

Sky

Forrest, aladin, sky,,,,,,,
WOWOWOWOWOW, what a thread! So many recent questions been poppin' up in my mind you guys have answered, clarified, offered so much experience on.
One question Forrest?, what dya' think of the Rowell ladle, I'm about to order the small one from Bill Ferguson. Input appreciated,,btw, I'm specialising in 35cal moulds and platforms.
Cheers!
R2

Sky,

you say;

S: Rob is a one man operation and doesn't have a website up - yet. If you'd like - Rob has sent me his brochure via e-mail with a listing of his various designs and I'd be happy to forward it for your review..

Seeing as you are quite experienced at this long range game whereas I am not - I wonder if you might be interested in running a few of these projectiles down range and offer up a report?..

me;

F: Sure! I'll post you soon with PM, address and all. The 2% tin + WW alloy is just about my standard fare for the Buffalo Rifles.

The only thing pending is weather to shoot in. I have just come back from the range where I went to do initial testing on the CPA Stevens 44 1/2 I have just received. It is 17 degrees and the wind is blowing about 15 knots here in Sheridan. I got so cold I started getting stupid and clumsy; mightly poor condition for testing anything!

Good evening,
Forrest

Rrusse11:

One question Forrest?, what dya' think of the Rowell ladle?

F: I do have a Rowell ladle, the small one, and although it is handy I have not yet figured out exactly what I want to use it for: It is too big for ladle casting of bullets and too small for pouring lead from the rendering pot to ingot mold.

I think it may very well be useful the next time I get out the 8-hole 40 caliber pistol mold. I'll try to remember to post about it when it happens.

Good evening,
Forrest

Evening Gentlemen-

R2- I also have played with the Rowell type ladles. Most of my moulds are of traditional double cavity design and with the usual flat type sprue plates. I find that in use with these molds - it has a tendency to heat the sprue plate very hot and the puddle takes considerably longer to harden as compared to the RCBS type dipper I usually use. Also - because these ladles require more a pour through type method - they don't tend to force alloy into the mould as much and it results in less crisp fill out on some of the moulds with marginal venting.

Where the Rowell type has worked extremely well however is with the LBT moulds and their unique type of sprue plate. It is my preferred ladle for use with these.

Forrest- I will be casting again Monday night and will work up a batch of the new Applegate's for you to trial. I'm grateful that you are willing to give these a run and report - I'm quite curious to know how they perform.

Weather... I understand - I'm about 6 hrs south of you and we are getting a bit of the cold and white down here as well. I was hoping for a trigger session today - but that got scrubbed. Need slightly better conditions - least wise enough warmer so the finger will know when I've snuck up to the trigger!

I got your e-mail address and will forward the brochure shortly.

Best to you all-

Sky

Forrest I see these guys on another channel talkig about the 44/77. That's what your shooten right, aka the .444 Marlin?

Was it two yrs ago you tied for first at the Q?

[ 03-02-2003, 22:46: Message edited by: aladin ]

Aladin:

A: I see these guys on another channel talkig about the 44/77. That's what your shooten right, aka the .444 Marlin?

F: We call it the 44/63 Ballard for the sake of tradition. The cases are maked 444, which is as close as we could come to the original..

A: Was it two yrs ago you tied for first at the Q?

F: Yes, that was me. I wrote it up for TFS as well. Last year I had some jerk telling an elk hunting story right behind me when I was shooting offhand. It was an unfortunate distraction! but I did win the Powder River match.

Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest I'll tell ya what would be interastin', a continutation of this thread with you talking about wind reading and all the technique required to shooten at that level.

Do you know the lay of the land by now [ie the Q] and watch a particular feature to pick up wind speed direction etc?

How to you prepare for the offhand-- any practice drills?

DE-tales Please...

Forrest-

I'd like to second Aladin's suggestion!

A primer regarding shooting techniques you have found successful would be great. Wind reading, shooting techniques off of crossed sticks, use of sights, etc. would be great.

Best regards-

Sky

Very well!

I'll post some stuff about the requested topics soon.

Right now it is time to go home. No flying today, all the paperwork done, venison chili for supper.

Good evening,
Forrest

Aladin and Sky,

you mention:

I'll tell ya what would be interesting'; a continuation of this thread with you talking about wind reading and all the technique required to shooten at that level.

F: I'm not a very scientific fellow where judging and compensation for "condition" is concerned. I've read some other people expound about how to judge mirage, how much wind at what quarter will not only cause left/right defection (and how much) but cause shots to go high or low and this depending on whether you have right or left hand twist rifling. On and on.

Also, folks will talk about the high/low affects of lighting; shooting in partly cloudy conditions for example where you shoot in sunshine for one shot and shade the next during a single relay.

As for me, I have to keep it simpler than all these things: If I try to juggle fifty or sixty considerations down there on the firing line, not mentioning holding and trigger control, I'd need much longer than the allotted time to figure out where to hold before each shot.

After shooting these matches for a few years I have the firm idea that a man has to start out with a good dependable load. This might be considered an "Of Course you do!" type idea, but I would go further.

You see, once a fellow sits down on the firing line lots of things have been done already: The load is "known", you've gotten the basic sight settings written down for the distances you'll be shooting, you've gotten some shooting in with some reliable spotters working with you, the prevailing condition is at least guessable for the first shot and now comes the time for Record Shooting!

During the relay, whether you get on with the first shot or not, there will be some doubt creep in; you'll wonder at some point if you should make a slight sight adjustment for real or imagined changes in condition. Here is where the load, and in particular the bullet performance is of note: You have to believe in your carefully worked up combination such when these doubts come along you none-the-less hold center, trusting that any such small difference in drift or lighting (real or imaginary) will be accommodated by the reliable performance you so diligently worked for before the match and the sight setting you used to make the previous hit.

I say this because I've second-guessed myself out of (way too many) hits, thinking I saw or felt condition differences that really weren't there, or if there, not enough to toss a miss off one side or the other.

Having said that, I'll have to make the disclaimer that no rule is absolute, not even this one. Certainly there will be condition changes that do require sight changes and a fellow has to have the guts to get aggressive about cranking them in at times.

This should be enough for starting an exchange about "condition" shooting. To discuss other factors, something about personal choices should be said. I have found that I do my best cross-stick shooting with a big, wide blade as the front sight. This is because it is impractical to adjust for every little change in condition. With the wide blade I may hold-off a certain amount while maintaining elevation. This technique is not recommended if you use an aperture front sight! If an aperture is your best choice for other reasons (like better target definition) you will have to crank in even small changes with the rear sight, and lord help you if you forget what little graduation was the prevailing "zero" for the basic condition you're dealing with!

One thing I began using a couple years ago is my E6B Flight computer to calculate Density Altitude on the firing line. "DA" is pressure altitude (altitude above mean sea level compensated for nonstandard pressure) which in turn is compensated for any non-standard temperature prevailing at the time. For example one year at Quigley I set my sights for the 800 yard "Buffalo" in the cool of the morning. By afternoon when my relay was up it was 35 degrees warmer, changing DA by about 1200 feet. I adjusted my sights down 0.060 and got a hit with my first record shot; everyone else was missing way high with sights set to match numbers recorded in cooler temperatures.

A&S: Do you know the lay of the land by now [ie the Q] and watch a particular feature to pick up wind speed direction etc?

F: No wind flags at Quigley! ..However, you may sometimes be able to see the US and Montana flags waving at the pavilion from some of the firing points! I was mighty glad they were there a time or two.

At Quigley there isn't even much vegetation to give a man ideas about what is happening down-range. If you have a gifted spotter and you trust him (!) he may be able to give you some useful information about the mirage he sees through the spotting scope.

Mostly, a fellow has to pick out a shooter or two on his relay and "go to school" on his shooting. If he is hitting well and then suddenly looses one off one side or the other you may enter that information in your mind and, depending on your own idea of condition and the other fellow's reliability, make an adjustment in your sight setting. This method works well if you have to good luck to shoot with a group of men steadily in practice, as we do here in Sheridan: We have gotten to know one another well enough to provide this kind of support on the firing line. If you shoot with us or close enough to see what is going on, so will you.

S: How to you prepare for the offhand-- any practice drills?

F: I have finally gotten the "answer" for off hand practice: I bought a CPA Stevens 44 � with two barrels. One in 44/63 Ballard, the other in 22RF. Same weight, same balance, same action, stock and trigger. I have hopes practicing with the 22RF in our 100 shot indoor offhand scheutzen matches this winter will improve my off hand score this summer!

In times previous to the Stevens I always loaded plenty of offhand practice loads in the rifle intended for match shooting. These were always stuff like shooting pistol bullets over 7 grains Bullseye at 50 feet indoors or an easily cast GC design at our offhand "Bear" at 440 yards outside.

Offhand is always toughest of all for me: If I could clean the offhand I think I'd be happier than shooting 24 straight off the sticks!

All for now, good morning,
Forrest